Habitation electric cutout - WHY?

[Zigisla]

The most annoying thing about my Rapido/Merc. is the fact that the hab door "autolocks" after 15 seconds.!. Anyone know how to bypass that?

If it is the same as the Fiat, I suspect it is in the Cab sub menu somewhere - Auto lock /On/Off

 

[physio49]

"What I don't really get, though, is how other countries have avoided this requirement - is it that the UK authorities (NCC?) are applying the rules differently, or that UK manufacturers are too afraid to look into it properly and it's easier to avoid the whole issue by simply turning thisngs off?"


My thoughts exactly! I had a 2007 Autosleeper Trident that cut the habitation electrics, so it at least dates from then. If Murvi can provide us with fully functioning vans - then so can the others!
Will be in touch with them.

 

[Blue Knight]

"What I don't really get, though, is how other countries have avoided this requirement - is it that the UK authorities (NCC?) are applying the rules differently,

I was under the impression that the NCC was an unofficial 'self-licking lollipop' organisation which was staffed by ex-McDonald's burger flippers.

 

[PeteH]

Bottom line.? Bypass the damn thing. We have far too much "Nanny state" regulation in the UK, There is a full "industry" out there making shed loads of money "protecting the public" from themselves. I know I was part of it when it really started to get out of hand in the early 90`s. The real "nitty gritty" stuff, PROPER Health and Safety. got overtaken by the sudden realisation that simple easy stuff could be charged for. For example, "PAT" testing was one, It took seconds to do and made up to £200 AN HOUR. (one man in a factory, with a £250 device and some sticky labels) "Money for old rope" as my dad would have said.

 

[peterc10]

"What I don't really get, though, is how other countries have avoided this requirement - is it that the UK authorities (NCC?) are applying the rules differently, or that UK manufacturers are too afraid to look into it properly and it's easier to avoid the whole issue by simply turning thisngs off?"


My thoughts exactly! I had a 2007 Autosleeper Trident that cut the habitation electrics, so it at least dates from then. If Murvi can provide us with fully functioning vans - then so can the others!
Will be in touch with them.

There is no ECC wide "rule" or regulation that requires this. It is just the NCC requires it. This is no more than a trade body with no legal status. It is telling that the middle "C" stands for caravan. Sensible rule for a caravan which nobody is in while you are driving; absolutely daft for a motorhome.

The vast majority of motorhomes throughout Europe do not do this and suffer no problems because of it. It is only British manufacturers, who all started as caravan builders, who do it.

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[Minxy]

If I've found the correct Sargent drawing removing the link between terminals 9 and 10 on the Sargent unit should disable the 12v cut-off. Terminal 9 is labelled 'EMC' and terminal 10 is labelled 'Split Charge'. So the habitation battery charging and fridge operation is initiated by a signal from the engine running on terminal 10. The same signal is connected to terminal 9 to turn off hab electrics. Could anyone with a Sargent system confirm that 9/10 are linked?

I haven't got a Sargent system but reading the info in the diagram the input from the engine/cab battery goes to no 10 so that the leisure battery is charged and also the fridge. The link to no 9 must activate a 'switch' that once it receive power input from the engine/cab battery goes 'eek' and turn off the unit's internal link to 6, 7 and 8. If someone was 'brave' enough to remove the link to no 9 they might find they don't have their electrics isolated ... any takers?

 

[tonyidle]

If someone was 'brave' enough to remove the link to no 9 they might find they don't have their electrics isolated ... any takers?

I don't have one either but no-one needs to be brave: if the link is there then that's what it does. There seems to be a fair bit of interest in stopping hab switch-off (not surprisingly!) so it's good info for owners with the popular Sargent kit. The reason I asked if someone could check that it exists is that it wouldn't be the first time a converter ignored the easy way & did it in some invisible convoluted fashion.

 

[physio49]

My frustration with this uneccesary cut off is such that I am tempted to purchase a new Sargeant kit for self builders and employ a knowledegable electrician to find the correct 'links' - so I can then modify my own and post the results here.

 

[Minxy]

My frustration with this uneccesary cut off is such that I am tempted to purchase a new Sargeant kit for self builders and employ a knowledegable electrician to find the correct 'links' - so I can then modify my own and post the results here.

I totally understand your frustration as it drove us mad when we had an Autocruise Accent for a few years after having foreign built MHs for a long time previously ... just removing the connection should apparently do the trick.

 

[physio49]

UPDATE:
According to Sargent website:
"To meet EMC (Electro Magnetic Compatibility) directive 89/336/EEC the EC50 series control panel will shutdown, and the electrical accessories within the vehicle will be disconnected while the vehicle is in motion. During this state the Leisure and Vehicle button LED’s will flash to indicate the engine is running and the leisure battery is being charged from the alternator."

This directive has been long superseded by:-

"The electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) Directive 2014/30/EU
(which)
"ensures that electrical and electronic equipment does not generate, or is not affected by, electromagnetic disturbance."
In reading through this document (not recommended!) I found the following. In order to NOT have the habitation electrics cut out then they must follow below-

"EMC Assessment
4.3.1 General Concept
The manufacturer shall perform an EMC assessment of the apparatus31 based on the relevant phenomena in order to ensure that he meets the essential requirements. As noted above the EMCD does not require the mandatory intervention from a third party (e.g. notified body or laboratory) when carrying out the assessment.
The manufacturer is fully responsible for applying the appropriate method of assessment. Recommendations are given in this Guide to help in this process.
Where the EMC assessment establishes that the apparatus concerned is inherently benign in terms of electromagnetic compatibility (both for emission and immunity) according to Article 2(2d), the apparatus is excluded from the scope of EMCD and no further actions are necessary. However, it is recommended to document the results of the assessment and its conclusion.
The EMC assessment needs to take into account all normal intended operating conditions of the apparatus.
In cases where the apparatus can take different configurations, the electromagnetic compatibility assessment must confirm that the apparatus meets the essential requirements, “in all possible configurations identified by the manufacturer as representative of its intended use”.
So Sargent have not bothered to perform the assessment and document it - or are producing non conforming equipment!!
Having visited SMC ( Frankia, Globcar, Knaus and Pilote ) and Brownhills (Adria and Rapido) they confirm that NON of these cut the habitation electrics but are NCC approved. Also having spoken to MURVI - they do not fit Sargent psu - guess why? They are also NCC approved. So it is NOT the NCC - but purely Sargent.
I have emailed Sargent requesting an explanation - but no one bothered to reply! So the next course is to see if what they are doing is legal (restriction of use and enjoyment) - and to purchase a unit to examine!

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[Blue Knight]

I'm not sure who at SMC you've spoken with but Frankia, Globecar and Pilote do not appear on any NCC list.

All the best,

Andrew

 

[Blue Knight]

Here's the list (note: The likes of Hymer is for Elddis and not for its motorhome models):

EDIT: Not certain about Knaus Motorhomes hence the change in my posts.

 

[physio49]

Apologies if I have been misinformed - and I would like to ask if any memeber on here reading this has been disuaded from a motorhome purchase because the brand was NOT NCC approved?
reading through their articles (too much reading lately) it would seem more of an industry body, than one that works for the consumer. just my view.

 

[Lenny HB]

Here's the list (note: The likes of Hymer is for Elddis and not for its motorhome models):

EDIT: Not certain about Knaus Motorhomes hence the change in my posts.


View attachment 310514

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That is just a list of members and company in the industry can join they don't have to produce products that meet their standards.

reading through their articles (too much reading lately) it would seem more of an industry body, than one that works for the consumer. just my view.

Funded by subscriptions from Manufacturers & dealers for their own benefit.

 

[Blue Knight]

That is just a list of members and company in the industry can join they don't have to produce products that meet their standards.

Funded by subscriptions from Manufacturers & dealers for their own benefit.

I've got to admit Lenny that after my Autotrail fiasco I now pass by any van which has an NCC Approved badge slapped on the side.

'Nasty Crap Construction'.

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