Google:: Oradour sur Glane..

[caz]

Visited Oradour a couple of years ago. Found it very moving.

We stayed at Parc Verger - Welcome to Parcverger Limousin - you need a few days to get over it.

 

[ronald4874]

Oradour Sur Glane

Just out of interest, Oradour and the reasons for the massacre was on colour film on the TV today 8th Nov. It is known a number of the resistance came from these parts which resulted in the massacre due to their delaying of the jerry tanks reaching Normandy from the south.
How much affect this had on the fight in Normandy can only be guessed at. I believe the affect was considerable due to Jerry tanks being far superior to the allies tanks where their engines were petrol driven and the Germans regarded them, once hit, as cigarette lighters.
Very sad times.
Ron W

 

[mikel]

We've been to Oradour three times now and I must admit it's an experience. The museum attached to the village is worth a miss. I got the impression it didn't want to upset the present day French /German special relationship.

There's another issue about the French having been the first, too willingly, to send their Jews off to the camps. Although I can only imagine the horrors of Oradour I often find France and its contribution to the Second World War a confusing place to be.

For those who spend a lot of time in Spain there's almost an Oradour in every single village throughout the country. Problem is no one wants to speak about it unless you speak their language and that I can do. There's also a law in Spain that requires the activities associated with Franco to be forgotten.

Next time you pass through a village and see the cemetery stop off and have a look around the walls. These were favourite execution sites for both the Nationalists and the Republicans. Most of the bullet holes have been plastered over but not that effectively.

For those of you over-wintering in Benicassim there's a cemetery towards the edge of town. Inside there's a memorial to several International soldiers who died of wounds in the hospital. The hospital was the present hotel on the beach. Three names are British, one of whom was the Commander of the British Battalion. After Francos win the bodies were exhumed by the locals and thrown over the wall. That was a common practice throughout Spain.

About 100,000 Spanish Republicans ended up in Mathausen, via France, and very few survived. Although not precisely known it is thought that towards three quarters of a million were killed in Spain after the surrender to Franco. Many who escaped over the border to France were not that welcome and as a result a high percentage of them died in French camps in the south west.

 

[Bulletguy]

We've been to Oradour three times now and I must admit it's an experience.

There's another issue about the French having been the first, too willingly, to send their Jews off to the camps. Although I can only imagine the horrors of Oradour I often find France and its contribution to the Second World War a confusing place to be.

I'm not sure 'willingly sent' would be quite correct, neither am I sure they were amongst the first Jews to be sent.

By June 1940 France was under Nazi occupation and though most of the population were subservient to the regime, a resistance movement quickly developed which remained active throughout the war. They put their lives at extreme risk in order to help allied forces.

I understand what you mean though about it being a confusing place to be but it must always be remembered that France was invaded along with many other countries.....Britain never was.

Germany of today still has some difficulties coming to terms with what happened in their own country but I never forget what my Mother once said to me as a young lad eager to know more about WW2...."there are German people.....then there are Nazi people." She also told me about witnessing the horrors of the blitz on Coventry. In 1940 when Germany bombed Coventry, the population was 320,000 yet the loss of civilian life was just 500 people. By comparison Dresden, Britains revenge for Coventry, suffered the most horrendous 'carpet bombing' five years later which virtually wiped it off the face of the earth. The population of Dresden then was around 600,000 but the loss of civilian life was around thirty six to forty thousand.

There were many many brave German people who stood against Hitler and the Nazi ideology. Indeed there were those who hated and despised the man and everything he stood for. Google Sophie Scholl and the White Rose for just one example. I'd also urge anyone to watch the DVD of this true story which will rip your heart out.

 

[weymard]

I agree with you Bulletguy, all German were not nazis, but all were in the line of sight of the Nazis guns... So what could they make ?
About Petain and the Jews, the deportation in France started after the deportation in Germany. But it was very important in France, because the Vichy's Government leant on a population of fascist culture previous to war and referring rather in Mussolini.
But is it true also that many and many French hid jews and and saved hundreds of thousands.
And remember that in UK you had a very strong fascist movement before and during the war. And about the collabortion with the nazis, look the attitude of Brits (are they Brits ?? ) , in islands Jersey Guernesey ...........

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[mikel]

I often find it concerning when people trawl up the occasional yet rare act of goodwill and use this to justify the fact that 'they' were not all bad. As if they were excusing the perpetrators.

These were minor acts of personal integrity and as history confirms they were significantly counterbalanced by acts of evil and self preservation emanating from Germany and collaborating countries.

 

[Bulletguy]

I agree with you Bulletguy, all German were not nazis, but all were in the line of sight of the Nazis guns... So what could they make ?
About Petain and the Jews, the deportation in France started after the deportation in Germany. But it was very important in France, because the Vichy's Government leant on a population of fascist culture previous to war and referring rather in Mussolini.
But is it true also that many and many French hid jews and and saved hundreds of thousands.
And remember that in UK you had a very strong fascist movement before and during the war. And about the collabortion with the nazis, look the attitude of Brits (are they Brits ?? ) , in islands Jersey Guernesey ...........

The fascist movement here was headed by Sir Oswald Moseley and his blackshirts. He came from a family of very wealthy landowners just a few miles from where I live, and grew up with a very priviledged background. As a young naive teenage girl, my mother, keen to impress her parents introduced her first boyfriend whom she thought dressed very smartly. Far from impressed her parents promptly threw him out of the house and told my mother she must never see him again......he was one of Moseley's blackshirts!

As you rightly say, many French civilians risked their lives by hiding Jewish people as did many German people. There is documented evidence to prove this.

There were many people who rose above the evils of Nazism, some even within their own ranks. One I learnt about only a few weeks ago, Friedrich Wilhelm von Lindeiner-Wildau who was Kommandant of Stalag Luft 3, the German POW camp on which the film "The Great Escape" was based. Fifty prisoners recaptured by the Nazi's were brutally murdered by the Gestapo. Von Lindeiner-Wildau, a gentleman officer of the 'old school', believed in strictly following the Geneva Convention and was incensed with fury when he discovered what had happened to these prisoners.

After the war and defeat of Germany, British military Police vowed to track down the perpetrators of this war crime and bring them to justice. Von Lindeiner-Wildau was instrumental in this and testified in Court for the prosecution. He was so well respected by the British POW officers they invited him to attend a 25th reunion.

Apologies for veering off original topic, but I do feel that when looking in a mirror, we should also try to look through it.......not only at our own reflection of what we like to see and what we want to believe.

 

[Bulletguy]

I often find it concerning when people trawl up the occasional yet rare act of goodwill and use this to justify the fact that 'they' were not all bad. As if they were excusing the perpetrators.

You won't like the last paragraph of my post then.

It's a popularly held myth that Von Stauffenberg was the only person involved in the attempt to assassinate Hitler, (hardly a 'minor act'!). He wasn't. There were many other officers behind him as well who collaborated. Those captured were sent to various Concentration camps where they were executed by the Gestapo.