Fridge on battery problem and engine not charging leisure batteries.

[VXman]

After a long drive yesterday I was surprised to find my batteries at only 70%. We have 350 watts of solar too. This morning I started the engine and noticed the Burstner/EBL display was down to 11.5. (just before it was 12.3)

I then noticed the fridge 12vbattery light flashing.

On checking I found the 20amp fuse near the leisure battery had melted! All other fuses are ok although I notice the 50 amp on the starter battery is slightly melted but still functioning (lucky as I don't have a spare). Might explain why the milk was off this morning - presumably the fridge was off during the driving yesterday.

I replaced the leisure battery 20amp fuse and the fridge seemed ok and the leisure battery was on 13 volts presumably from the alternator. However, after a few seconds the battery started flashing error again. Checked the fuse and whilst not blown in felt warm so I removed it.

With it removed the leisure battery is back at 12.3 but appears not to be charging off the alternator.

The other possibly related point is that I posted the other day about an issue with the hazard warning lights being on when I started the engine. That seems ok now but was a problem for an hour 2 days ago and for a minute or two the day before.

Any ideas? We are traveling in Austria at the moment so it's a bit if a pain.

Burstner Lyseo 727 with ebl 119. Three leisure batteries.

 

[GeoffnDee]

Are you able to turn the fridge off , replace the 20 amp fuse and see what happens (to check if the fridge is causing the fuses being overloaded problem ) .

 

[VXman]

Are you able to turn the fridge off , replace the 20 amp fuse and see what happens (to check if the fridge is causing the fuses being overloaded problem ) .

Good idea. I will try that later. Travelling now. Put fridge onto gas.

 

[tonka]

Burstner Lyseo 727 with ebl 119. Three leisure batteries.

This may have no connection at all BUT when i first got our Burstner i was advised by a few funsters to be wary of the EBL and not overload it.
The built in chargers dont like to be run flat out, in fact one member had similar to you with 3 batteries and it burnt out the charger.

Could the 12v heating element of the fridge have a problem, shorting ?? Just throwing ideas..

 

[VXman]

This may have no connection at all BUT when i first got our Burstner i was advised by a few funsters to be wary of the EBL and not overload it.
The built in chargers dont like to be run flat out, in fact one member had similar to you with 3 batteries and it burnt out the charger.

Could the 12v heating element of the fridge have a problem, shorting ?? Just throwing ideas..

Yep, aware of possible charging problems but I feel that with the solar kicking out a lot of charge most of the time it shouldn't be too much strain on the ebl charger. Will keep that in mind though.

I did wonder whether a 12 volt element might be an issue. Not sure how to check or deal with that if it was an issue though.

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[autorouter]

What type of display is it? Does it show the amps into and out of the leisure battery? If it does you could use that to check the fridge heater element.

When the engine is stopped, note the reading for the amps into/out of the leisure battery. Turn the fridge onto 12V (manually). Note the new amps reading. For that to work, there needs to be a fuse in the slot labelled 'Kompr/AES Kuhlshrank' . A 20A fuse probably. So for example if it goes from +3A to -12A then the fridge element is drawing 15A. If it's drawing about 14A then the element is good. If it's a lot more or less then there's a problem with the element. Or possibly the wiring.

This makes the fridge run from the leisure battery, something that you have to be careful of because it can run the battery flat if you forget and leave it on for several hours. So make sure you turn it off after the test.

Edit: the hot fuse might be a bad contact at the fuse itself. The contacts can be a bit loose if they have been strained. Or they can get a bit oxidised. Once there's a bit of resistance, it heats up, causing more oxidation and more resistance, until the fuse plastic melts.

 

[autorouter]

Travelling now. Put fridge onto gas.

Don't forget to turn it off if you stop for fuel.

 

[GeoffnDee]

If it turns out that the fridge is not the problem , is it possible that one of the batteries is faulty , or has a poor connection , causing the alternator to work flat out all of the time the engine is running , overheating the fuses etc.

 

[VXman]

autorouter the display is a standard Burstner display which just show volts level for each battery, and not very accurately according to my multi meter.

Yes there is a fuse in the fridge slot on the ebl and that's fine.

Is there away of doing a similar check with the multi meter? I only have a basic knowledge of these things.

 

[VXman]

Been on a campsite for a few days so all ok on 240. Back on the road I have been experimenting. On 12v initially all seemed ok but after 5 mins or so the leisure battery level plummeted. Switch fridge back to gas and the leisure battery voltage rises ok. I am aware this is the charge level. According to the Victron mttp app the leisure is full and on float.

So what is causing the leisure battery to drop in indicated charge voltage when the fridge is on? As far as I am aware the fridge should be taking power from the starter battery when on 12volt.??

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[Lenny HB]

You said the 50 amp fuse holder was partly melted so as autorouter says could be poor contacts and the connections are arcing.

I would replace both the 50 amp and 20 amp fuses with Midi fuses, they are far more reliable at least you would have a good starting point.

You could also pull the AES fuse on the EBL that will stop the fridge from switching to the leisure battery under certain conditions, it will still work from the starter battery with the engine running.

Also check the fridge connections on the EBL the pins in the connector block are on their limit and often arc and the insulation on the cables will look overheated & melted.

 

[VXman]

Just to update. I'm not sure how but the fridge ended up on auto yesterday (been left on gas mostly since this problem began) so when we travelled yster day it switched to battery. Hey presto - it was fine! All I've done is remove and replace fuses and fiddled with the plug connections on the EBL. Weird.

Also, the odd running of the hazard lights when the engine was started that I reported in another thread seems to have righted itself now. Vehicle electrics!!!

 

[VXman]

Just thought I'd update this. Still getting problems but less often. It can run fine for hours of driving and then suddenly the leisure battery voltage dives like it's getting a very heavy draw. If left the red error light comes on the fridge.

As the leisure battery is really only supposed to provide a low current to run the electronics of the fridge I am still confused as to why the fridge is drawing so much power from the leisure battery. It should be running off the engine battery/alternator.

So just bumping this thread to see if anyone has any more knowledge/ideas.

Could it be a D+ signal issue?

I ask as it does seem to be a bit of occasional issue. Also once it was fine all day until I turned the engine off for 5 mins. When I restarted the problem kicked in again.

 

[autorouter]

If it actually a heavy draw from the leisure battery, this could be caused by a chafing wire, with worn-away insulation, contacting the metal bodywork. Usually this just blows a fuse, but if the contact is not very good it might draw a heavy current instead, but not enough to blow a fuse. Another possibility is mice chewing the insulation somewhere. These other symptoms of entirely unrelated items suddenly coming on or off also points to mouse damage or damage to the wiring loom somewhere.

 

[Lenny HB]

Have you actually pulled the AES fuse on the EBL like I suggested?
If not its worth doing, without the fuse everything will still work normally except you won't be able to run the fridge from the leisure battery.

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[VXman]

Have you actually pulled the AES fuse on the EBL like I suggested?
If not its worth doing, without the fuse everything will still work normally except you won't be able to run the fridge from the leisure battery.

I did try that but it made no difference. I still had the same issue with the fuse out.

I am a little confused - what is the purpose of the fridge fuse in the ebl if it doesn't affect anything? I am not aware that you can run the fridge from the leisure battery on my van. I thought it was just to run the electronics side of the fridge. ???

 

[VXman]

If it actually a heavy draw from the leisure battery, this could be caused by a chafing wire, with worn-away insulation, contacting the metal bodywork. Usually this just blows a fuse, but if the contact is not very good it might draw a heavy current instead, but not enough to blow a fuse. Another possibility is mice chewing the insulation somewhere. These other symptoms of entirely unrelated items suddenly coming on or off also points to mouse damage or damage to the wiring loom somewhere.

It only seems to affect the running of the fridge and is immediately ok if I switch the fridge from battery to gas. This would suggest a Fridge or fridge wiring issue.

 

[autorouter]

what is the purpose of the fridge fuse in the ebl if it doesn't affect anything? I am not aware that you can run the fridge from the leisure battery on my van. I thought it was just to run the electronics side of the fridge. ???

With the AES fuse removed, the fridge behaves like in most other motorhomes. It works from the alternator when the engine is running, whether it's on auto or manual. When the engine stops, the 12V to the fridge goes off. If it's on auto, it switches to gas, after a break of about 15 minutes. If it's on manual, the 12V switches off when the engine stops.

With the AES fuse inserted, it works exactly the same on auto. On manual, it works from the alternator when the engine is running, as before. But when the engine is stopped, it switches to the leisure battery instead of just switching off. This should be used with care, because the fridge can flatten a leisure battery in a few hours. But it's useful occasionally, like on a ferry or the Tunnel, when the gas must be switched off. Most motorhomes don't have this option. If the fuse was removed you'd probably never notice.

 

[VXman]

With the AES fuse removed, the fridge behaves like in most other motorhomes. It works from the alternator when the engine is running, whether it's on auto or manual. When the engine stops, the 12V to the fridge goes off. If it's on auto, it switches to gas, after a break of about 15 minutes. If it's on manual, the 12V switches off when the engine stops.

With the AES fuse inserted, it works exactly the same on auto. On manual, it works from the alternator when the engine is running, as before. But when the engine is stopped, it switches to the leisure battery instead of just switching off. This should be used with care, because the fridge can flatten a leisure battery in a few hours. But it's useful occasionally, like on a ferry or the Tunnel, when the gas must be switched off. Most motorhomes don't have this option. If the fuse was removed you'd probably never notice.

OK. Thanks for that explanation. However, that really doesn't apply to the situation I have. I have always used the fridge in auto and with the AES fuse in. The only time I have switched it to manual is when I have had this issue of the lesiure battery draining when the engine is running and it is in 12 volt mode. Then I manually put it onto gas. This is what I have been doing as a temporary fix when the problem arises. (And it melted the 20 amp fuse next to the leisure battery)

I have never allowed it to use 12 volt mode when the engine is not running. What it seems to do - intermittently and randomly - is drain the leisure battery while the engine is running.

So, in response to Lenny HB - yes I have tried removing the fuse but it is not making any difference to the issue I have.

I may have to get a professional to look at it when I return in November however I can see it being a difficult one as it does seem to be ok for hours at a time initially.

 

[autorouter]

If you're not getting it fixed right now, one thing you could try is to run the fridge on 12V manually, with the engine not running, with the AES fuse in place. Maybe only run for half an hour or an hour, to avoid running the leisure battery down too much.

Then see if the problem still happens while running from the leisure battery. If it does, or doesn't, then that could indicate whether the fault is in the wiring from the starter battery to the EBL, or from the EBL to the fridge. Just be careful not to forget and leave it on manual until the leisure battery is flattened.

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[VXman]

If you're not getting it fixed right now, one thing you could try is to run the fridge on 12V manually, with the engine not running, with the AES fuse in place. Maybe only run for half an hour or an hour, to avoid running the leisure battery down too much.

Then see if the problem still happens while running from the leisure battery. If it does, or doesn't, then that could indicate whether the fault is in the wiring from the starter battery to the EBL, or from the EBL to the fridge. Just be careful not to forget and leave it on manual until the leisure battery is flattened.

I will look at that later. From memory though, selecting 12 volt when the engine is not running just results in a red flashing error light on the fridge. I never thought running it off the leisure battery was a possibility.

 

[Lenny HB]

I am a little confused - what is the purpose of the fridge fuse in the ebl if it doesn't affect anything? I am not aware that you can run the fridge from the leisure battery on my van. I thought it was just to run the electronics side of the fridge. ???

It comes down to the fridge and how it is wired.

In my first Hymer if the fridge was on auto if no mains or gas supply it would swith to 12v running from the leisure battery.

On my current Hymer it will only run from the leisure battery if you select 12v manually or put a control signal (12v) on the S+ terminal.
This is very useful as I have a solar regulator with an AES output so my fridge runs from 12v when the batteries are charged and there is enough solar.

 

[Lenny HB]

I will look at that later. From memory though, selecting 12 volt when the engine is not running just results in a red flashing error light on the fridge. I never thought running it off the leisure battery was a possibility.

That indicates there is not a heavy duty feed to the fridge when the engine is off. In that case the AES fuse won't do anything as probably no connection to it.

 

[autorouter]

That indicates there is not a heavy duty feed to the fridge when the engine is off. In that case the AES fuse won't do anything as probably no connection to it.

You can tell whether there is a feed or not by looking at which pin on Block 1 (the 4-way connector) of the EBL is used. Pin1 has no feed, Pin4 has the feed. If Pin1 is used, the AES fuse will have no effect.

 

[VXman]

This certainly is educating me!

1. Block 1 has a yellow wire going into pin 2.

2. Have been running with AES fuse out and problem persists.

3. I have noticed that generally (maybe all the time...not 100% sure) it is fine when I start in the morning on a drive. It can be fine for hours but if I stop for a short time and restart that is when the problem kicks in. 1st time I noticed this was when I switched the engine off in traffic. On restart the leisure battery voltage dives and the fridge red flashing light came on.

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[autorouter]

1. Block 1 has a yellow wire going into pin 2.

That's the D+ (engine running) signal going to the fridge. If there's a wire to Pin4 then the AES fuse will allow power from the leisure battery. If the wire is to Pin1 then there is no wiring to the leisure battery, so the AES fuse won't do anything. But either way I think it's a but irrelevant to your problem, which I think isn't related to this at all.

 

[VXman]

So, what are the wiring connections in block 2 for? Are they functional without the fuse?

EDIT: Actually - just looks at the EBL 119 manual and it says

Connection block 1 - refrigerator

Connection block 2 - refrigerator supply D+, battery sensor/control lines

 

[autorouter]

So, what are the wiring connections in block 2 for? Are they functional without the fuse?

Block 2 connections are inputs into the EBL. Pins 1 and 4 are the fridge HC supply pos and neg from the starter battery, with a 20A fuse near the starter battery. Pin3 is the D+ from the alternator. Pin2 and Pin5 are the thin leisure battery sensor wires, neg and pos, that are used to accurately measure the leisure battery voltage, with a small 2A fuse next to the leisure battery.

Block1 wires are outputs from the EBL to the fridge: HC pos and neg (switched by a relay inside the EBL), and D+.

The AES fuse is only for the HC supply from the leisure battery to the fridge, so it has no effect on the starter battery side of things, ie Block 2 fridge connections,which are direct from the starter battery.

 

[VXman]

Very informative autorouter. Unfortunately it doesn't seem point to a reason for my problem.

 

[VXman]

The 20 amp fuse by the leisure battery totally melted yesterday. Damaged further by my failed attempts at extracting it.

However, everything still works fine with the fuse not functioning (20 amp AES fuse on ebl removed also)

It does beg the question - why did Burstner fit a fridge fuse to the leisure battery if it is designed not to use the leisure battery? The manual clearly states it is the fridge fuse but the fridge has never functioned unless the engine is running. Maybe I should have taken this one out before.

I will monitor now and see if the issue reoccurs or if this fixes it.

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