Forgot to winterise!! Frozen

[Pausim]

Last year I had a 12mm plastic pipe split between boiler and sink (frozen).while travelling through France on my way to Spain.

I carried on and let the system thaw out without extra heat after opening taps and emptying the water tank.

Couldn't find any 12mm fittings in France or Spain.

I could reach the split but all efforts to bodge a repair failed.

Replacing the whole length of 12mm would have been a big job so when I got home I cut the pipe either side of the split and fitted a John Guest 12mm push fit straight convector bought from Don Amotts - plumbers merchants don't have them.

I now carry a spare 12mm connector

I always carry amalgamating/consolidating tape.

 

[Barclaybasher]

I always carry amalgamating/consolidating tape.

Tried that - twice - didn't work - too much pressure in the system

 

[Jim]

I had a 12mm plastic pipe split between boiler and sink

That was unlucky, I’ve never had a split pipe, but had connectors pushed off making repairs easier.

Lost a few taps though, the cheapo plastic taps break so easily if not completely empty of water.

 

[jezport]

I can only advise what NOT to do.

Don't artificially warm the van. A quick thaw to any equipment is a sure fire??? way
to wreck anything.

The above advice includes the boiler. Do NOT switch it on.

With luck, (and buckets of it)??? a slow increase in temperature may not
have done any damage but I'm not putting my pension on it.

Edit. I note that other Funsters have a contrary view to mine.
Your van, your choice.

I do however agree to switching off the pump and might I also suggest
opening the taps. That will allow, with the pump off, to allow the water to
escape from the pipes without pressure.

I'd also suggest taking up residency in the van, uncomfortable as that might be
because you will be on site should the worst happen.

You dont say where you are but from the latest weather forecast, by Friday/Saturday
you will be wiser as the temps will be back to maybe plus 10 instead of freezing.

A fast defrost causes ice to expand. Advice to put heating on or add heating is WRONG and will destroy your taps, joints and possibly the boiler.
A very slow thaw is the safest way but there's no guarantees!!

 

[L' Hobo]

Last year I had a 12mm plastic pipe split between boiler and sink (frozen).while travelling through France on my way to Spain.

I carried on and let the system thaw out without extra heat after opening taps and emptying the water tank.

Couldn't find any 12mm fittings in France or Spain.

I could reach the split but all efforts to bodge a repair failed.

Replacing the whole length of 12mm would have been a big job so when I got home I cut the pipe either side of the split and fitted a John Guest 12mm push fit straight convector bought from Don Amotts - plumbers merchants don't have them.

I now carry a spare 12mm connector

Every time I have to deal with any waterwork problems, I am slowly converting my 12mm pipe & connectors to 15mm, these are available at ANY DIY store.

Initially the only problem was to get 12-15mm conversation fittings but when I did find them a few years ago, I grabbed a handful. Rarely have any problems today.

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[jezport]

I certainly agree with not running the boiler, and opening the taps if possible, but I’m curious as to why you think gently warming the van is a bad idea? Maybe there’s something I’ve not thought about, apart from pipes leaking as they thaw?

Because ice expands as it thaws. So leaving to thaw as slow as possible is best.
I actually did a trial some years back on a 15mm frozen copper pipe. A warm hot water bottle left over it split the pipe in half an hour.

 

[Emmit]

Walked out of the bedroom after listening to the first half of the travel news on R2.

" No mention of snow then ?"

Walked into the kitchen, pulled the blind up, to be met with this.

Bare in mind, this is Cornwall at 600ft.

Get that water out of your system.

 

[L' Hobo]

Walked out of the bedroom after listening to the first half of the travel news on R2.

" No mention of snow then ?"

Walked into the kitchen, pulled the blind up, to be met with this.
View attachment 981232
Bare in mind, this is Cornwall at 600ft.

Get that water out of your system.

AND it might get worse over next few days, if not snow then rain, so get your shopping done and take care!

 

[yorkiebar]

A fast defrost causes ice to expand

I don't understand the physics of that, do you have a link to explain it ?

 

[Googlebot]

I don't understand the physics of that, do you have a link to explain it ?

Does Water Expand Or Contract When Heated?

Ice expands uniformly with increasing temperature until it melts, but liquid water expands at an accelerating rate until it boils.

www.sciencing.com

I never knew this.

However, if it melts, it expands so what do you do?

Slow thawing won’t make it expand less then, will it?

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[MichaelT]

Does Water Expand Or Contract When Heated?

Ice expands uniformly with increasing temperature until it melts, but liquid water expands at an accelerating rate until it boils.

www.sciencing.com

I never knew this.

However, if it melts, it expands so what do you do?

Slow thawing won’t make it expand less then, will it?

I always thought that as it freezes it contracts then expanded when thawing?

 

[L' Hobo]

I don't understand the physics of that, do you have a link to explain it ?

I don't understand that either, I thought it was the other way around.
If water expands while freezing and splits you metal pipes, when it's thawing, it should DECREASE?

Isn't this why Icebergs float, because the area of frozen water is MORE!

 

[meanders]

Yes it does. Imagine you have a 6 inch core frozen. If you thaw it all at the same time it will expand throughout the core trying to get to about 50% longer so to about a foot. If you defrost it slowly, say half an inch a time, it will be trying to expand to 6.5inches with a corresponding reduction in internal pressure.

 

[L' Hobo]

Does Water Expand Or Contract When Heated?

Ice expands uniformly with increasing temperature until it melts, but liquid water expands at an accelerating rate until it boils.

www.sciencing.com

I never knew this.

However, if it melts, it expands so what do you do?

Slow thawing won’t make it expand less then, will it?

One can't always believe what one reads on the Internet!

 

[L' Hobo]

I always thought that as it freezes it contracts then expanded when thawing?

I have never seen a NORMAL metal pipe split by the force of liquid water, which is what it is when thawed?

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[L' Hobo]

Yes it does. Imagine you have a 6 inch core frozen. If you thaw it all at the same time it will expand throughout the core trying to get to about 50% longer so to about a foot. If you defrost it slowly, say half an inch a time, it will be trying to expand to 6.5inches with a corresponding reduction in internal pressure.

So, if I let my ice lolly thaw for a few minutes, it will get bigger!

I wish I'd known that as a child, they never teach you anything useful in school!

 

[daventess]

Walked out of the bedroom after listening to the first half of the travel news on R2.

" No mention of snow then ?"

Walked into the kitchen, pulled the blind up, to be met with this.
View attachment 981232
Bare in mind, this is Cornwall at 600ft.

Get that water out of your system.

I'd be slightly more concerned about that python!

 

[L' Hobo]

I'd be slightly more concerned about that python!

Yes, especially as it should be dormant (or dead) in this cold weather!

 

[The Wino]

I think it's wise to thaw gently my A level physics said that water has it's highest density at 4 c. In the example with the pipe being heated with a hot water bottle and splitting I suspect there's a plug of ice at either end and as the water in the middle rises about 4c there's nowhere for the force of the expansion to go and then the pipe splits. I think it's a good idea to heat it to melt the ice but not with concentrated heat in one place ( like a hairdryer or fan heater pointed at one pipe). Hopefully it's going to be ok we lost a couple of taps over the years but got replacements at Screwfix at a fraction of the cost of motorhome dealers.
Once it defrosted I'd try and check for any leaks then put some water in the tank pressurise the system and sit there and listen for the pump switching on if there are any leaks ( assuming it's a pressurised system).

 

[barryd]

When we got our first van in 2008 for the first three years or so we never knew about draining down so never bothered. Come the freezing winter of 2010/11 we found out the hard way. Went away for Christmas and the taps wouldn't work. Obviously frozen water in the internal pipes. Took three days to thaw the pipes behind the bathroom wall. I had a fan heater on it for ages. Eventually it thawed out and all was well. Amazingly no damage to the boiler, pipes or joints. 1996 Kontiki. So maybe you might get away with it. My optimistic guess is the water will be frozen in the pipe work where its at its smallest density and you might bust a joint or two. The plastic whale shower head cracked in ours so I learned to always remove them. If it were me I would now disconnect the pipes from the pump and put a pan under each end. Give it somewhere to go. Stable door and all that but good luck. I bet its fine.

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[KNWH]

Because ice expands as it thaws. So leaving to thaw as slow as possible is best.
I actually did a trial some years back on a 15mm frozen copper pipe. A warm hot water bottle left over it split the pipe in half an hour.

I’m confused! Ice is less dense than water, which is why it floats. As it warms up closer to melting the density increases as per attached graph, so it contracts surely?

I suggested a gentle warming so everything can gradually come up above freezing, rather than localised heat which could potentially cause problems certainly.

 

[Emmit]

I'd be slightly more concerned about that python!

The 'python'?

It's a single stem flower vase. LOL

 

[buzz1]

Metal expands and contracts,
So add heat it will expand to fast,
That why you get broken rails / joints on a railway lines .
That’s my theory any way

 

[poppycamper]

I don't understand the physics of that, do you have a link to explain it ?

Is this anything to do with physics behind the claims that hot water freezes quicker than cold, making ice cubes etc...??

 

[KNWH]

Is this anything to do with physics behind the claims that hot water freezes quicker than cold, making ice cubes etc...??

I’m afraid that’s a myth! Certainly hot water ‘cools faster’ in that it loses heat more quickly to its surrounds than warm water, but imagine you start off with water at 30deg C.
It will take a certain time to cool down to the temperature of water out of the tap.
Both examples will then take the same time to freeze, so the hot water has taken longer overall due to the initial 30 to ambient cooling time.

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[jezport]

I’m confused! Ice is less dense than water, which is why it floats. As it warms up closer to melting the density increases as per attached graph, so it contracts surely?

I suggested a gentle warming so everything can gradually come up above freezing, rather than localised heat which could potentially cause problems certainly.

View attachment 981282

Take a look at the science!
When you heat ice, the molecules gain kinetic energy, and the ice expands until it melts. But once all the ice has turned to water and the temperature starts rising again, expansion stops.

 

[enark]

The drain tap is open but nothing has come out. But I'd forgot to open the kitchen/ bathroom taps anyways so I guess the boiler wouldn't drain (i think)

Hi,

I had similar some years ago with a truma boiler in a horsebox.

The end result was a hairline crack, which allowed a slight drip from the boiler. To replace would have cost, to do nothing would have resulted in the floor rotting.

So i fabricated a small drip tray, with a drain pipe.

Boiler continued to heat water, drip continued, but dropped out of through the drain.

 

[The Wino]

Take a look at the science!
When you heat ice, the molecules gain kinetic energy, and the ice expands until it melts. But once all the ice has turned to water and the temperature starts rising again, expansion stops.

I think the physics says different! The maximum density of water is at 4c. Below that temperature it expands and freezes at zero to ice that continues to expand. So as ice warms it first contracts and continues to do so until 4c Above that it expands again.

 

[L' Hobo]

I think the physics says different! The maximum density of water is at 4c. Below that temperature it expands and freezes at zero to ice that continues to expand. So as ice warms it first contracts and continues to do so until 4c Above that it expands again.

View attachment 981348

We've saved the world, if we can raise Earth's temperature to around 4c we can harness this Perpetual motion of expansion and contraction through day & night, without input and pull down all the Windows Farms etc. and put all the fields back to growing food.

 

[The Wino]

We've saved the world, if we can raise Earth's temperature to around 4c we can harness this Perpetual motion of expansion and contraction through day & night, without input and pull down all the Windows Farms etc. and put all the fields back to growing food.

Wow sherry for breakfast!!!!!

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