Fogstar lithium batteries, any good ?

[Gaston aires]

One particular battery, a Fogstar 230 amp drift fits perfectly where needed. Anyone had dealings ? You have to pay a deposit and pre order. Takes a few weeks to arrive so they say.
Phil upmeamps

 

[Bolti]

.

 

[Vansflyer]

You could just turn off your victron mppt then any parasitic draw will naturally slowly bring the battery soc down or you could set up a user defined charge profile in the MPPT to say 13.6v absorption and select this when not using the van.

I am working on the user profile currently, the figures given by Fogstar for 75% soc don't seem to be accurate as I set the b2b to that voltage and they carried on charging. I need to leave the solar on when parked up on the drive as that feeds the Ablemail unit which keeps the engine battery topped up.
Work in progress but getting there.

 

[Lenny HB]

I need to leave the solar on when parked up on the drive as that feeds the Ablemail unit which keeps the engine battery topped up.

It will probably use less than 3 ah a day so it wiil be fine without a charge for quite a few weeks.

 

[Gromett]

A Lithium can easily take up to a 100 amps when charging if you only have 4 or 6 mm sq cable feeding it you will get a volt drop that will reduce the charge rate but even if you are only charging at 30 Amps that cable is going to get pretty hot.
With 16 mmsq cable like the Germans use you will probably get 80 amps or more even that cable will get quite warm but depending on the rating of the alternator you could burn it out.

Doesn't the cable have a suitable fuse in line with it to prevent this overheating/overloading? sounds like a badly designed system you have there? Just asking?

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[bungy]

well happy now, only ordered the other day with a delivery into early july, just had a message saying its ready for shipment am i ok with it being shipped early!!

had to think about that for a few nano seconds!!

 

[Vansflyer]

It will probably use less than 3 ah a day so it wiil be fine without a charge for quite a few weeks.

The tracker and alarm pull more than I would like so not an issue leaving the solar on and the charging option for the Fogster turned off in the BMS.

 

[Lenny HB]

The tracker and alarm pull more than I would like so not an issue leaving the solar on and the charging option for the Fogster turned off in the BMS.

Have you actually checked the current draw, on my van it's 70ma.

 

[Vansflyer]

Have you actually checked the current draw, on my van it's 70ma.

I did when new but can't remember the parasite drain tbh. To the best of my knowledge it doesn't do any harm to have the cab battery trickle charged by the Ablemail / solar.

 

[rwg]

Turning off charging in the app does work until the battery see a load of 2A + and then the BMS turns the charging back on again!

I'd assumed that was just how the charging block works by design. When you have turned off charging I presume it turns off the main power MOSFETS and allows current to flow out of the battery (not in) via some sort of diode. Obviously the diode has a limited amp rating, so as the load rises past an amp or two it switches the main MOSFETS back on to handle the outflow current. Of course, once the drain on the battery drops down it goes back into 'no charging mode'. So, the net effect is that it never actually charges more than momentarily when the current drain is switched off. At least, that's how mine works - I've had it on 'no charge' for most of the winter and it has behaved itself.

A Lithium can easily take up to a 100 amps when charging if you only have 4 or 6 mm sq cable feeding it you will get a volt drop that will reduce the charge rate but even if you are only charging at 30 Amps that cable is going to get pretty hot.

Surely you have to assume that the cable (whatever thickness it is) will be fused to protect it from overheating. Therefore the worst that will happen is that you will blow the fuse if the current draw exceeds the fuse rating. If it's not fused then you have worse problems than possibly drawing too much current into a lithium battery... Any short will cause a fire...

Also, the resistance of the cabling acts to protect it from high currents unless you put a significant voltage drop across it. In normal use you are unlikely to get more than 1.6V between the alternator (~14.4V) and the battery (~12.8V at 20% charge). 10m of 4mm2 cable (5 each way) gets you a resistance of 47 milliohm and limits current to 34A even before allowing for any voltage drop in the charging circuits of the battery. That's shouldn't overheat the 4mm2 cable - it's within spec according to 12V planet. If you have a smart alternator which could get to 15V or more, or short cable runs then you need to consider more carefully.

cheers,

Robin

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[Al n Val]

I'm around & Dave Ditcha is here, I'm sure we could pull your van apart for you.
You might have a problem getting back together.

Lenny HB Ditcha

I think i’m parked behind you guys as I can see all the Funster flags

Across the racecourse and turn right whereas you lot are on the left

I’d appreciate a visit/look lenny and save if you’ve time

Al

 

[canopus]

We’ve just fitted a 280ah Phil and it seems to be working ok!

The price is really reasonable, but the wait was at least 2 months.

The Fogstar 280ah on its side fitted in the space of two leisure batteries fitted.

Cliff measured the compartment and it fitted (on its side) but when the battery came it had handles fitted which weren’t on their dimensions, so he had to hacksaw half of the handles off - a bit off putting when you’ve just paid £800!

No experts on it, but Fogstar had the right size and very reasonably priced in comparison to others.

Hi Cliff & Ger
Just curious to know if your Schaudt EBL needed any modification to enable it to suit the Lithium battery charge profile.
Ive read that most of the older EBL’s are only switchable from GEL to AGM. Lithium charging from the EBL requires an irreversible electronics mod carrying out.

 

[cliffanger]

Hi Cliff & Ger
Just curious to know if your Schaudt EBL needed any modification to enable it to suit the Lithium battery charge profile.
Ive read that most of the older EBL’s are only switchable from GEL to AGM. Lithium charging from the EBL requires an irreversible electronics mod carrying out.

Hi Ken, Cliff contacted Fogstar today and asked if it was ok, and would it damage the battery if he charged on 240v through the Schaudt EBL set to gel, and they told him they said it would only reach 90 to 95%, but it would do no damage to the battery because it was protected by its own BMS.

He understood it to be if it has a gel setting on the EBL it’s all ok.

You can always contact Fogstar. Cliff emailed them and they replied very quickly each time.

It all means zilch to me though …..

Hope you’re both ok xx

 

[PeterCarole29]

460ah now ordered new stock in and arrives Tuesday
A previous post suggested a charging rate of 14.2v as 14.4 was close to its limit of each cell 3.6v this would lenghten the battery life
I do have a lithium positition on the inverter charger
I,m all for things lasting longer what would be the down sides to to chargeing at a lower voltage

 

[Raul]

more than happy with my Fogstar 304Ah and the service they offer, i have also bought EVE cells from them and have a cabinet on order

Did you ordered the vertical on castors, or the horizontal rack system? I think they come with PACE bms, please let us know after it arrives how you get on with it. Cheers.

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[Raul]

460ah now ordered new stock in and arrives Tuesday
A previous post suggested a charging rate of 14.2v as 14.4 was close to its limit of each cell 3.6v this would lenghten the battery life
I do have a lithium positition on the inverter charger
I,m all for things lasting longer what would be the down sides to to chargeing at a lower voltage

Charging rate its the amps flowing in the battery, nothing to do with the voltage. Like 20a charging a 100ah battery- thats a charge rate of 0.2C or C/20.
Thats absorb constant voltage you refer to. And yes lower than 14.4v its good a 14.2-14.10v its more than enough to fully charge. In summer I charge to 14v max, no need to pin them at higher voltage in heat.

 

[Brianmor]

I got a 280ah, ordered in the autumn and arrived in March, around 3 weeks after expected though they did keep me informed re shipping delays from manufacturers of cells.

Really pleased with it, just installed with no other hardware changes to van. Sits on its side under passenger seat and a have a 1,500w inverter which pulls 3% of battery capacity for each kettle boil. Tops up nicely with solar and driving. No worries off grid during 10 weeks in France.

My only gripe is you are supposed to long term store at 50% charge but there is no way to switch off charging on the app and disconnecting is a hassle so I don’t bother.

You can turn it off for for long term storage in the app

 

[Al n Val]

Lenny HB Ditcha

I think i’m parked behind you guys as I can see all the Funster flags

Across the racecourse and turn right whereas you lot are on the left

I’d appreciate a visit/look lenny and save if you’ve time

Al

Any chance of a look Lenny HB tomorrow as we leave monday morning

cheers

Al

 

[Gromett]

Did you ordered the vertical on castors, or the horizontal rack system? I think they come with PACE bms, please let us know after it arrives how you get on with it. Cheers.

There are 3 products. The prebuilt rack mount one with a pace BMS.

Fogstar Energy Server Rack Battery 48V (5.12kWh)

UK-designed Fogstar Energy SR51.2V Lithium (LiFePO4) Server Rack Battery with heating, pre-loaded inverter protocols, LCD touch screen, 16 Grade A EVE Cells, a DC Rated Breaker and an 8 year warranty.

www.fogstar.co.uk

Then there is 2 empty cases for £500 which you populate with your own batteries. These come with the SEPLOS BMS as I read it.

SEPLOS Mason 48V 280Ah DIY Battery Kit (14.3Kwh)

The Seplos Mason Kit includes everything that you will need to create a DIY 48V 14.3Kwh battery (prismatic cells sold separately). UK Stockist. Lowest Prices in the UK. Fast Delivery.

www.fogstar.co.uk

SEPLOS Mason 280L 48V 280Ah DIY Kit (14.3Kwh)

The Seplos Mason 280L Kit includes everything that you will need to create a DIY 48V 14.3Kwh battery (prismatic cells sold separately). UK Stockist. Lowest Prices in the UK. Fast Delivery.

www.fogstar.co.uk

I have been watching a lot of videos on this as this works out so cheap that it is almost worth going for 48V in the van.

Check this guys reviews out. Bear in mind he mixes stuff up so when he complains about something it may not always be the fault of the product.

https://www.youtube.com/@OffGridGarageAustralia/videos

 

[Raul]

There are 3 products. The prebuilt rack mount one with a pace BMS.

Fogstar Energy Server Rack Battery 48V (5.12kWh)

UK-designed Fogstar Energy SR51.2V Lithium (LiFePO4) Server Rack Battery with heating, pre-loaded inverter protocols, LCD touch screen, 16 Grade A EVE Cells, a DC Rated Breaker and an 8 year warranty.

www.fogstar.co.uk

Then there is 2 empty cases for £500 which you populate with your own batteries. These come with the SEPLOS BMS as I read it.

SEPLOS Mason 48V 280Ah DIY Battery Kit (14.3Kwh)

The Seplos Mason Kit includes everything that you will need to create a DIY 48V 14.3Kwh battery (prismatic cells sold separately). UK Stockist. Lowest Prices in the UK. Fast Delivery.

www.fogstar.co.uk

SEPLOS Mason 280L 48V 280Ah DIY Kit (14.3Kwh)

The Seplos Mason 280L Kit includes everything that you will need to create a DIY 48V 14.3Kwh battery (prismatic cells sold separately). UK Stockist. Lowest Prices in the UK. Fast Delivery.

www.fogstar.co.uk

I have been watching a lot of videos on this as this works out so cheap that it is almost worth going for 48V in the van.

Check this guys reviews out. Bear in mind he mixes stuff up so when he complains about something it may not always be the fault of the product.

https://www.youtube.com/@OffGridGarageAustralia/videos

I have two 48v self built with fogstar cells. At the time the seplos was not available, and I’m glad so. It’s not quite there compared to PACE or JK. I just got mixed with the pre built, that’s the one that comes with PACE.

A 48v in the van you say? Not sure it’s worth it, if majority of loads are AC then maybe, but DC to DC conversion is very inefficient, 85% at best, to service the 12v loads. And running two banks it’s a faff. The 48v it’s good for the house,

I have been watching Andy for almost two years now, he has helped allot of ppl, and done some extensive testing, busting few myths. He has dedicated allot of time to his channel, and some knowledgeable folk has shared experiences in the comments. There is a guy “Up North and personal”, that’s on Will Prowes forum on DIY.com, as well, very knowledgeable and lots of real life experience. He has contributed to Andy’s channel via comments, and some are very early pioneers in lfp experience.

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[Gromett]

but DC to DC conversion is very inefficient, 85% at best

Not one to disagree with you. But 97% is achieved daily in the data centres already.

https://www.analog.com/en/technical-articles/simplify-your-data-centers-48vto12v-power-conversion.html

Admittedly this is a 4 phase solution but nothing stopping that being used in a motorhome if the budget is available

I am only thinking of 48V because things like the Victron Multiplus etc are far cheaper at 48V than 12V. I didn't know this until Wissel pointed it out to me.
Along with using thinner copper wires for the solar with reduced losses. Tesla are moving to a 48V architecture for their cars and other manufacturers are doing the same.
I suspect before a decade is up 48V will replace 12V.

Interesting subject.

 

[Raul]

If I find one DC to DC 48-12 off the shelf at 95% efficiency I will switch the van to 48v in a beat. I have a long experience with 48v systems, my house is entirely off grid since I built it. Now I run two multiplus 2 5kva in parallel to cover for the car charging to. Before this, it was only one multi

 

[Raul]

That load is on two self built batteries with the fogstar cells and kJ bums,

 

[Gromett]

If I find one DC to DC 48-12 off the shelf at 95% efficiency I will switch the van to 48v in a beat. I have a long experience with 48v systems, my house is entirely off grid since I built it. Now I run two multiplus 2 5kva in parallel to cover for the car charging to.

It's been a while since I have done anything in the datacentre. Back then we were just starting to look at 48v and I think from memory I only had 2 items that ran on the 48V system.

However a quick google.

Efficiently bridging 48V and 12V systems

As system power levels continue to increase, 48V architectures maximize power network efficiency while maintaining SELV levels.

www.vicorpower.com

I don't have much time to spare on this. But there are definitely products out there if you know what you are doing and are prepared to put the time in.

For example.

https://www.vicorpower.com/documents/datasheets/ds_PI352x-00.pdf

Finding a ready made solution that utilises this shouldn't be too hard? Off the shelf data centre gear has come down in price dramatically over the last 5-10 years.

I wasn't stating that it was practical or cost effective. Only that your belief that 85% efficiency was the best you could do was incorrect

 

[Gromett]

Raul Just did a quick search on mouser and they do an evaluation board. Bit pricey at £318 but eval boards are never cheap. Usually much cheaper to use an example schematic and get a chinese PCB manufacturer to make you one (not a serious suggestion).

https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Vicor/PI3526-00-EVAL1?qs=l7cgNqFNU1ghtQl7p2q0zA%3D%3D

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[Gromett]

Raul 90-94% efficiency https://www.eaton.com/gb/en-gb/catalog/emobility/41040-dc.html

 

[Raul]

Raul 90-94% efficiency https://www.eaton.com/gb/en-gb/catalog/emobility/41040-dc.html

This one may be a contender, my 12v loads are continuous, but not to high peak. I never exceed 30A even with two compressor fridge and freezer. The 12v loads distribution is fed and protected by a fast blow ANL fuse, and in the last 4-5 years I never changed it.

 

[Gromett]

This one may be a contender, my 12v loads are continuous, but not to high peak. I never exceed 30A even with two compressor fridge and freezer. The 12v loads distribution is fed and protected by a fast blow ANL fuse, and in the last 4-5 years I never changed it.

Raul it wasn't a challenge or a suggestion I was just surprised you thought 85% was the maximum efficiency.

If you do go 48v let me know how you get on though as it will be a year or so before I am ready to go down that route.

 

[Raul]

Raul it wasn't a challenge or a suggestion I was just surprised you thought 85% was the maximum efficiency.

If you do go 48v let me know how you get on though as it will be a year or so before I am ready to go down that route.

The funny thing is, I just sold a multi 3kva, and a multi 2 5kva both 48v. Reason? I wanted two multi2 in parallel of the same revision and same identical hardware, to be able to run in parallel. What victron or dealers fail to mention, when you parallel 2 inverters, they pnp number has to be very very close or identical. Reason? Continuous revisions implies hardware add ons that changes the resistance of the unit, and make it impossible to sync to each other. So if you have one older that six months, chances are will not parallel.
Anyways for the van, a 3kva multi2 it’s nice, currently I have a 2kva and haven’t maxed it out yet. But, I tent to believe a 24v will be more appropriate since many appliances will take the 24v directly. My fridges take either 12 or 24v. A pump change is ok, a heater maybe, tv router lighting running on a 24-12 DC buck will work.
There is another consideration: winter power rationing, I’m glad I can switch the inverter off, and be very frugal on 12v if needs must. With the DC buck I will have no choice but to leave it on, hence efficiency is important. Currently I have 5kwh lfp, 2x 200ah, and could be re configured for 24v. A 48v would be a new bank, and sell existing at a loss. Very difficult decision.

 

[Gromett]

The funny thing is, I just sold a multi 3kva, and a multi 2 5kva both 48v. Reason? I wanted two multi2 in parallel of the same revision and same identical hardware, to be able to run in parallel. What victron or dealers fail to mention, when you parallel 2 inverters, they pnp number has to be very very close or identical. Reason? Continuous revisions implies hardware add ons that changes the resistance of the unit, and make it impossible to sync to each other. So if you have one older that six months, chances are will not parallel.
Anyways for the van, a 3kva multi2 it’s nice, currently I have a 2kva and haven’t maxed it out yet. But, I tent to believe a 24v will be more appropriate since many appliances will take the 24v directly. My fridges take either 12 or 24v. A pump change is ok, a heater maybe, tv router lighting running on a 24-12 DC buck will work.
There is another consideration: winter power rationing, I’m glad I can switch the inverter off, and be very frugal on 12v if needs must. With the DC buck I will have no choice but to leave it on, hence efficiency is important. Currently I have 5kwh lfp, 2x 200ah, and could be re configured for 24v. A 48v would be a new bank, and sell existing at a loss. Very difficult decision.

Not an easy decision then. Sounds like you have a set up that already works for you. For me I would be starting from scratch hence not so hard.

Oh and for the water pump. A dual pole relay would do the trick. When the pressure falls it switches on the relay. The relay turns on the converter AND the pump. Just one example. I have seen this done with a fridge whereby a 240v fridge was fitted and the inverter was switched on by the thermostat.

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[MisterB]

Did you ordered the vertical on castors, or the horizontal rack system? I think they come with PACE bms, please let us know after it arrives how you get on with it. Cheers.

I've ordered the vertical case on castors. I'm going to collect in Monday as I'm keen to get it finished.