Financing a full time dream...

[Jason Buckley]

May I ask you something, please?

How much of that £1,200 pm are you assuming is 'site' costs? Or are you all wildcamping somewhere? Or is there an alternative as to where you intend to 'live'?

Overnight costs outside the UK are (for us) dramatically lower than in the UK. France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy and many other countries have networks of free or low cost official (not wild camping) motorhome parking places called aires, stellplatz, sostas etc. Many have free or low cost service points. With a self-contained van with a suitable solar panel and leisure battery(ies) you can, if you really needed to, stay on this network and never pay anything in overnight costs. Have a look at park4night.com or campercontact.com. We tend to use sites too, and use the ACSI Camping Card scheme to keep out-of-season costs down. Our costs tend to go up when we're in the UK as aires and official non-site overnight parking is (for us) much more difficult to find. In some countries you can legally wild camp as long as you abide by certain rules (like in Scandinavia). Some countries make wild camping illegal but don't tend to enforce it for motorhomes (Greece springs to mind, but check locally as some officials will enforce the law).

Cheers, Jay

 

[dabhand]

Just dreaming at the moment, like many of us.

But starting to explore the possibilities for stopping working in a couple of years and moving to extended trips / full-timing. We’d both be 48 and kids would be at/past uni and off the books. We have a suitable van. We’ve had a health issue in the past couple of years (resolved) which makes you reappraise life and he balance between accumulating stuff

It all boils down to financing how you live, and how you preclude for the unexpected life throws at you.

We have generally been lucky in life so far (worked hard, mortgage free) and reckon we could downsize, retain a small UK property, see the kids right and release a pot of circa £200-250k equity. We are fortunate enough to have NHS pensions which we could access from 55, but preferably 60, or later. So we would need to fund a period of 10-12 years I reckon before work pensions came on stream and then state pensions later. Ideally we wouldn’t need to work, but wouldn’t be averse to that when we were in the UK.

I’ve looked at budget posts and folk seem to do it for from between less than £1k per month to three times that. I’m a long way from settling in figures, but am thinking of £2k as a reasonable start.

So, after that scene-setting, my questions.

*Has anyone extended/full-timed in a similar situation to us?
*Is it necessary to retain a UK property? I like the security of a bolt-hole which we wouldn’t rent out as we would be living in it a fair bit initially as we moved from extended trips to closer to full timing. I don’t think we would ever be fully f/t. We could stay with both sets of parents when home, but I would be anxious about retaining our right to free NHS care if I couldn’t demonstrate residency.
*How do you manage the issue of older parents - although we would propose to return to UK a few times a year.
*Has anyone done it via downsizing and a pot of cash - living off a mix of the interest/investment income and the capital?
*Is a £250k pot enough for our time period, assuming we stuck with the lifestyle that long?
*What am I missing?

Many thanks for any thoughts - I am grateful for any guidance I can learn from.

Robin

I’m sure you’ve done your sums but you might want to check the small print on your NHS pension rights, obviously I don’t know which scheme you’re in but the 1995 section doesn't give actuarial increases for late retirements, i.e. if a member takes their pension after NPA, it isn't increased to reflect the fact it will be drawn for a shorter period than if it had been taken at NPA, other things being equal.

 

[Glas Robin]

I’m sure you’ve done your sums but you might want to check the small print on your NHS pension rights, obviously I don’t know which scheme you’re in but the 1995 section doesn't give actuarial increases for late retirements, i.e. if a member takes their pension after NPA, it isn't increased to reflect the fact it will be drawn for a shorter period than if it had been taken at NPA, other things being equal.

Thanks. NPA is, I think, 65. Earliest is 55 for part and 60 for the rest I think...but that is actuarially reduced quite a bit...hence the longer we can leave it before taking it the better. But still doing the sums.

 

[Southdowners]

Could build a Do it yourself Stable yard, menage and divide up the fields for grazing / haylage
Posh kids and their horses... Money for old rope

I wouldn’t advise going down this route.

It’s massively expensive to build stabling, storage, fencing and ménage. You’d also need to run water pipes to each field for connection to water troughs, etc, etc. You’d need equipment.. a quad and tractor and Harrow for fields and ménage, etc, etc. You then would have to employ staff... a yard manager and a field and general maintenance person. Add to that Insurance, maintenance, muck heap removal, utilities, etc.

It’s far from all profit even if you do own the land. People with the horses on a DIY basis would only be expected to look after their own horses, not run and maintain the yard.

 

[Hollyberry]

You could sell your home and buy two smaller properties to rent out. Use a GOOD agent, go on recommendations and you should be able to leave it to them. Buy the best properties you can afford, in a good area. Student accommodation is another option.
Keeping somewhere you can drop back into by keeping it empty is an expense —- Council tax, heating, water, insurance. As long as one property is ok for you to live in if necessary you could repossess it within 2 months.

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[Sundowners]

Glas Robin. ————— Message sent.

 

[Glas Robin]

Glas Robin. ————— Message sent.

Thanks - and for the information in it. Very informative.

 

[nicholsong]

Just on the subject of returns on capital, I have one investment which is in a bond, but a bond which is traded on the Stock Exchange so one can see the price at any time. I bought on issue so paid £1 and it is showing at £1,02 so there is trust in it, but if I hold till it matures in another 5 years I will receive just the £1 back. If I saw the price moving down I would just sell in the market.

There are seveal of this type of tradeable bond available and mine is in a well-established company investing in rental property. This one pays 6.25% p.a. paid twice yearly, and because it is held in my ISA income is tax-free.

One could invest in a selection of these bonds to further spread the risk. You can buy them at any time.

Geoff

 

[Yorick]

Just on the subject of returns on capital, I have one investment which is in a bond, but a bond which is traded on the Stock Exchange so one can see the price at any time. I bought on issue so paid £1 and it is showing at £1,02 so there is trust in it, but if I hold till it matures in another 5 years I will receive just the £1 back. If I saw the price moving down I would just sell in the market.

There are seveal of this type of tradeable bond available and mine is in a well-established company investing in rental property. This one pays 6.25% p.a. paid twice yearly, and because it is held in my ISA income is tax-free.

One could invest in a selection of these bonds to further spread the risk. You can buy them at any time.

Geoff

Which bonds can you recommend?

 

[Charlie9038]

We were and still am fortunate enough to be in a similar situation at 48 ( midlife awakening ), as we had a change in work commitments this year which made us reconsider our life in the UK and leave the rat race. A few things that have come out in our thoughts and travels the last few months have made us reconsider full timing.

1. After being in our very comfortable motorhome for a few weeks we get cabin fever- especially with the weather, too wet ( if its raining id rather be in a house) or too hot with too many flies & mosquitoes and it can get a bit notorious after a while, moving sites, finding sites, getting lost, language barriers packing up etc
2. Being on site in Europe is great but half term holidays can get very busy & cramped.
3 You need to have a UK addresss for insurance etc
4 If your relying on rent from a property you need to be have funds if the tenants don't pay- its a long and costly process to get tennants out that aren't paying their way and it will normally need at least decorating when they leave.
5 If you apply to be wardens in the UK it will take a long time to get an interview and job ( we applied in Febuary this year and still waiting )

We toured France for weeks and its surprising how costly it can get, tolls & fuel soon adds up. But £2k a month will cover it. We prefer the comforts & security of campsites as opposed to Aires.

So the conclusion we have come to for now is to travel as much as possible without renting or selling our house, avoiding half term holidays, work part time when in the UK which will give us the funds & felxibilty to travel with and still live in our house when we choose without relying on rental income from people that are less fortunate to own their own house. I am fortunate that I love my work and I was surprised how much I missed it ( slightly nuts? )
We now have utter respect to full timers but at the moment it is not for us. Its nice to get away but its also nice to come back
These are our thoughts so thought I would share with you (hope I dont start a debate!)
Best wishes, its better to try & fail than not try at all.

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[Glas Robin]

We were and still am fortunate enough to be in a similar situation at 48 ( midlife awakening ), as we had a change in work commitments this year which made us reconsider our life in the UK and leave the rat race. A few things that have come out in our thoughts and travels the last few months have made us reconsider full timing.

1. After being in our very comfortable motorhome for a few weeks we get cabin fever- especially with the weather, too wet ( if its raining id rather be in a house) or too hot with too many flies & mosquitoes and it can get a bit notorious after a while, moving sites, finding sites, getting lost, language barriers packing up etc
2. Being on site in Europe is great but half term holidays can get very busy & cramped.
3 You need to have a UK addresss for insurance etc
4 If your relying on rent from a property you need to be have funds if the tenants don't pay- its a long and costly process to get tennants out that aren't paying their way and it will normally need at least decorating when they leave.
5 If you apply to be wardens in the UK it will take a long time to get an interview and job ( we applied in Febuary this year and still waiting )

We toured France for weeks and its surprising how costly it can get, tolls & fuel soon adds up. But £2k a month will cover it. We prefer the comforts & security of campsites as opposed to Aires.

So the conclusion we have come to for now is to travel as much as possible without renting or selling our house, avoiding half term holidays, work part time when in the UK which will give us the funds & felxibilty to travel with and still live in our house when we choose without relying on rental income from people that are less fortunate to own their own house. I am fortunate that I love my work and I was surprised how much I missed it ( slightly nuts? )
We now have utter respect to full timers but at the moment it is not for us. Its nice to get away but its also nice to come back
These are our thoughts so thought I would share with you (hope I dont start a debate!)
Best wishes, its better to try & fail than not try at all.

Thanks Charlie - that's very interesting.

I guess we are all on a journey (no pun intended). It seems that many people start with extended trips rather than "proper" full-timing, as I imagine the transition is a bit easier.

If I can make this work and the co-pilot agrees, then extended trips is what I have in mind initially, especially as we have late teenage kids and older parents. We'd be wanting to come back to the UK a few times a year.

If we do it the way that I'm starting to think might work, we'd downsize and buy a small property somewhere between both sets of parents and not rent it for the first year or two - that would give us somewhere to come back to whilst we do long trips away. If we like it we can then take the next step and rent out the house. It would mean spending some of our savings/capital in the first year or two, but I'm coming round to that idea.

Thanks for sharing your story. Hope you continue to enjoy the mix of travelling and staying put that makes best sense for you.

Robin

 

[nicholsong]

Which bonds can you recommend?

To do that I would really have to act like a Financial Adviser(for which I was a Compliance fficer so know the routine) and ask you a lot of questions about income, other commitments, attitude to risk etc.

I am sorry but you will have to do your own research, but I have made you aware of the generic products and I would suggest you look for ones in 'solid' sectors, where the companyies' dividend is well-covered so that they can pay the bonds and a dividend.

My project this autumn is to find more bonds which fit my own criteria, even if they pay 5-6% - which is good inside an ISA or a SIPP tax free.

My attitude is that if you have accrued funds through work or otherwise then one should make them work at least above the rate of inflation, otherwise they are dissipating, and one needs to put in some effort. I am no gambler but there are ways of increasing yield, as in these bonds.

I only posted to counter the sceptics who said 'Where can you get 5%?'

Geoff

 

[Glas Robin]

So, I've been pondering further - and thinking about the parts of extended/full-timing that might be harder to adapt to. Always good to be prepared.

It strikes me that moving from a home we've lived in for 15 years and been part of a community where our children grew up, and becoming essentially itinerant wanderers will be quite a change.

We live quite away from anyone else, aren't particularly social and don't have massive friendship circles locally (just a couple of good friends and then a few more scattered around the country), but I guess it would still be an adjustment. Especially if the house we downsize to isn't in this area but is closer to each set of parents.

How have others found this transition? Do you miss being fixed to a place/community/people - or is this replaced by people you meet and maintaining online friends/communities?

Thanks again for any thoughts.

 

[Stonemags76]

I was ok for about a year, but then found myself craving a community & a conversation! Solved that for a while by settling on a long term winter campsite in Spain! We’ve returned many times since, as the sense of community was like a small village. Hubby was never bothered - quite happy wandering with just me for company & the dog!

 

[movan]

Thank you to the person who pm'd me when my brain was getting scramvled. Appreciate it.

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[StitchesnFluff]

Thank you to the person who pm'd me when my brain was getting scramvled. Appreciate it.

TimiNg is everything, Nick x

 

[Reallyretired]

My financial advisor, a friend regrettably now deceased from lung cancer, flogged me an investment some years back which has made nearly 20% in the last three months. I wonder how much is due to the falling pound though, this would make non gbp investments look as though they had increased a lot.

 

[Wellington]

Just to add to Minxygirl’s post about stamp duty, it’s also worth noting that income from property is a) taxes and b) you don’t get all of it. I know you probably know this, but it does bear mentioning. Also, you’ll need a contingency fund. This year I have put in double glazing, using a big chunk of mine, then needed roof repairs for a leak, replaced a dead boiler and had two tenants in arrears, as well as the usual bits and pieces. If you’re out of the country you’ll need an agent, who will likely take ten percent, too.

I still think it’s your best bet for income, and I’ve no regrets about putting my money into property, but it’s not always consistent cash, and not without its pitfalls for the unwary. I’m happy to elaborate later, just wanted to give you a heads up.

Also, interest is bugger all of nothing atm. Don’t bother with it!

 

[Antarcticarian]

Don't sell the property or down size, just rent it out! You'll always have a house to come back to if the shit ever truly hit the fan. But that rental money is free money if the mortgage is already paid off!

Not all rental money is free money, as it is classed as income and tax would be due to HMRC for monies above their joint annual allowance. This would be in addition to monies received as investment returns, which is also classed as income?

 

[Antarcticarian]

Hi Movan, the £1200 per month is what we have and so to make it work we will have to budget accordingly. Most of it goes on food and diesel. We are only a couple of months in, so early days. We are currently in France and stay mainly in free aires, but not always. Things may alter after Brexit, but the plan is to overwinter in Spain in campsites ( longer stays - cheaper rates) and cutting down on diesel costs.
Campsites in the UK that are open in winter sometimes have good deals.
We have to be quite careful with our money and that wouldn't work for everyone, but for us we get to travel, see some lovely sites and everyday is a surprise- the option is going back to work - no thanks!

Hi Sucoz. I'm a lone traveller (yet to buy the MoHo) but have been working up a sustainable budget for the last two years using an Excel Workbook. This was originally in Euros, but have recently adapted the dashboard (not the MoHo) to ££s in preparation for 'you know what'. The 90-in-180 day rule means my plans have now shifted from full-timing, permanently in EU on a sailboat, to multi-90day trips to EU then returning to UK for summer touring or winter working. Although single, my current budget is around £700 per month, so £1,200 per month is doable. I live and eat very similar now to that which I did 5 months ago when living in a flat and working, but now I live on a sailboat until she is sold and I will buy the MoHo. I'm happy to share a blank version of my Excel Workbook to anyone to help then plan. As this thread shows, there are many ways to a more sustainable and fulfilling life, but it is different for us all.

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[Glas Robin]

Hi Sucoz. I'm a lone traveller (yet to buy the MoHo) but have been working up a sustainable budget for the last two years using an Excel Workbook. This was originally in Euros, but have recently adapted the dashboard (not the MoHo) to ££s in preparation for 'you know what'. The 90-in-180 day rule means my plans have now shifted from full-timing, permanently in EU on a sailboat, to multi-90day trips to EU then returning to UK for summer touring or winter working. Although single, my current budget is around £700 per month, so £1,200 per month is doable. I live and eat very similar now to that which I did 5 months ago when living in a flat and working, but now I live on a sailboat until she is sold and I will buy the MoHo. I'm happy to share a blank version of my Excel Workbook to anyone to help then plan. As this thread shows, there are many ways to a more sustainable and fulfilling life, but it is different for us all.

Yes please. Would you be happy to attach the file to this thread?

Showing my ignorance... what’s the 90 day rule?

 

[Glas Robin]

Not all rental money is free money, as it is classed as income and tax would be due to HMRC for monies above their joint annual allowance. This would be in addition to monies received as investment returns, which is also classed as income?

Two people not working/no other income sources could earn £25k between them tax free.... that’s a reasonable budget in my book! There are probably even more tax efficient ways of doing it via Ltd companies and dividends... but not sure of the CGT implications for the property/ies in that case.

 

[Charlie9038]

Two people not working/no other income sources could earn £25k between them tax free.... that’s a reasonable budget in my book! There are probably even more tax efficient ways of doing it via Ltd companies and dividends... but not sure of the CGT implications for the property/ies in that case.

CGT I think is currently or at least it was when we sold our BTL 18% as a lower tax payer & 40% on higher tax payer on any capital growth on the property after its rented out, there is an 18month free https://www.gov.uk/entrepreneurs-relief period which the government are planning to reducing to 1 year in the future. Unsure of the LTD idea but even then you will still get taxed when you sell as its classed as an asset, plus you will pay NI if you pay salaries as LTD company & you will possibly loose out on the 18 month relief period, either way the tax man wins! I'm not an advisor or trying to be but I have been turned off the rental idea from experience in the past.

 

[gus-lopez]

.
As I understand it (I'm not an expert in this), as long as you pay your taxes in the UK it won't matter if you don't own property here.

Even if you do own propertypay council tax, income tax ,national insurance; etc; etc; once out of the UK, for more than 90 days ( under the current rules) you have no right to nhs healtcare & therefore the ehic would be invalid also. usually nothing comes of it although gp's are meant to de register you if they know.

Yes please. Would you be happy to attach the file to this thread?

Showing my ignorance... what’s the 90 day rule?

In the event of a 'no-deal' any UK persons right to enter any other european countries will be on the third country basis the same as the americans,aussies ,Canadians ,etc; & also require a tourist visa.It will also be limited to '90 days in any 180day period'

 

[Ivory55]

Two people not working/no other income sources could earn £25k between them tax free.... that’s a reasonable budget in my book! There are probably even more tax efficient ways of doing it via Ltd companies and dividends... but not sure of the CGT implications for the property/ies in that case.

It might be tax free but you still pay national insurance on that. National insurance has been creeping up to balance out what they are losing on less tax

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[Gromett]

You could sell your home and buy two smaller properties to rent out. Use a GOOD agent, go on recommendations and you should be able to leave it to them. Buy the best properties you can afford, in a good area. Student accommodation is another option.
Keeping somewhere you can drop back into by keeping it empty is an expense —- Council tax, heating, water, insurance. As long as one property is ok for you to live in if necessary you could repossess it within 2 months.

Section 21 notices are soon to be banned. I wouldn't rent a property out anymore. That said I had a lousy experience with my first tentant and ended up just selling the house. Less hassle.

 

[Glas Robin]

once out of the UK, for more than 90 days ( under the current rules) you have no right to nhs healtcare & therefore the ehic would be invalid also. usually nothing comes of it although gp's are meant to de register you if they know

Sorry, but this isn’t correct. It’s partly my professional area so I know the regulations pretty well (although they can be a bit grey).

Entitlement to free NHS care is on the basis of residency, not nationality or previous payment of tax/NI. There is no qualifying period, be it 90 days or 12 months as is commonly thought. If you can demonstrate you are “ordinarily resident” in the UK you are entitled to NHS care for free. Ordinarily resident can be demonstrated through living in a property (rented or owned), utility bills, employment, electoral roll etc. I would have thought any full timer or extended mohoer would be able to demonstrate when in the UK they were ordinarily resident here, but it is, as I said, a bit of a grey area.

In any event, anyone of any nationality/residency status is entitled to free emergency care (ie A&E up to the point of an admission for treatment) and free primary care (ie GP services) so no one would ever be “de-registered”. Quite a bit of maternity care is also free regardless of status.

EU Exit may have some impact on things like EHICs, but in reality the UK has already been seeking to line up reciprocal healthcare agreements with most EU nations in the event of a no deal - in order to maintain similar access/payment as is in place at present. None of which means that sensible MoHoers shouldn’t always have good travel and medical insurance when abroad.

So in summary, to maintain rights to NHS care long term MoHoers should think how they would demonstrate they are “ordinarily resident” in the UK if ever asked (which they almost certainly wouldn’t be).

Hope this is helpful info.

 

[Glas Robin]

CGT I think is currently or at least it was when we sold our BTL 18% as a lower tax payer & 40% on higher tax payer on any capital growth on the property after its rented out, there is an 18month free https://www.gov.uk/entrepreneurs-relief period which the government are planning to reducing to 1 year in the future. Unsure of the LTD idea but even then you will still get taxed when you sell as its classed as an asset, plus you will pay NI if you pay salaries as LTD company & you will possibly loose out on the 18 month relief period, either way the tax man wins! I'm not an advisor or trying to be but I have been turned off the rental idea from experience in the past.

Looking at the HMRC website - passive income (eg from rental,properties) would make you self-employed. If earning £12.5k you’d pay no income tax and about £500 in NI (£150 plus 9% of everything over about £8,600)

 

[Antarcticarian]

Yes please. Would you be happy to attach the file to this thread?

Showing my ignorance... what’s the 90 day rule?

Okay. That's not a problem. Give me a couple of hours to figure out how to attach the file and for me to tidy-up the workbook and remove my data - I'll keep the food data in. Please note this is a simple workbook for full-timers with no other commitments ashore (no house, no car), those funsters with property and/or still working will need to adapt to their circumstances. I'll upload later this morning.

 

[Antarcticarian]

Even if you do own propertypay council tax, income tax ,national insurance; etc; etc; once out of the UK, for more than 90 days ( under the current rules) you have no right to nhs healtcare & therefore the ehic would be invalid also. usually nothing comes of it although gp's are meant to de register you if they know.


In the event of a 'no-deal' any UK persons right to enter any other european countries will be on the third country basis the same as the americans,aussies ,Canadians ,etc; & also require a tourist visa.It will also be limited to '90 days in any 180day period'

Thanks Gus, that is how I understand it. My understanding also is that there are some peculiar circumstances for assets (boats, cars, MoHo, Guzzi bag, Rolex) that are not in the EU at the point of transition, in that their existing VAT status will be honoured unless the asset is sold within EU or to an EU resident after transition - the VAT would then become liable again. I'm sure this has been discussed on this Forum before?

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