Filling in Dover Harbour for ETIAS (3 Viewers)

[L' Hobo]

It's not just the number of staff.

It's that issue that this type of border control, where each person is checked individually was designed to work for airports.
Where people are on foot.
It means, if space can be made available, then this could be rolled out to train stations as well.
(Although there will need to be some serious demolition in the middle of London and Paris to make the new terminals)

However the big problem is vehicles.
Take our Motorhomes as examples.
(And lets call it a tag axle 9m, with a car on a trailer at the back and 2 adults and two younger children inc a toddler on board)

They have to drive into a car park
Possibly a 'lane' type of parking to allow for different vehicle lengths
Behind the two minibuses each full of 17 teenagers and in front of the coach with 60 OAP's

Everyone gets out, the push chair is assembled for the toddler.
The teenagers are now spread across the car park as the Adult drivers attempts to herd cats
The OAP's are struggling all to get off and looking for the loo's as the Driver opens the luggage area for the three wheelchairs.

Within 5 minutes all 100 people have made it to the building where passports and biometrics are checked.
(Remember even Immigration has quoted 85% fail rate initially, falling to 20% fail rate after three years)
If there was no queue when they arrived
If there were 20 booths
If only a 20% fail rate

If the Teenagers can each be persuaded to remove hats and hair from their faces.
If the OAP's can be directed to put their passports into the feeder, the right way up
If the wheeled passengers (old and young) can be directed to the correct booth

In theory it should 'only' take five minutes to process 100 people with 20 booths and a100% success rate.
Practice is obviously vastly different.

100 people exit the building, half via the loos.
People drift onto the vehicles
Mixing with the new arrivals of course, so people that have been checked mixing with those that have not ?
Or perhaps the drivers go through on their own ? and pick up on the other side?
In which case who is dealing with the loose teenagers and the small children ?
Loads of people wandering around a large car park looking for a vehicle they may not be familiar with and they have no idea where it is ?
What could possibly go wrong?

With the best will in the world you are looking at 20 mins per vehicle
(Think about how long it takes to do a motorway loo stop, even if you are not getting fuel or anything it at least 20 mins from exit to entry of the motorway)

Now extrapolate that figure to the 11m people in 5m vehicles that pass through Dover each year.

(Answer: 16m hours, or 190 years of wasted time per year, just at Dover, and working on the assumption is 'only' 20 mins of wasted time per vehicle. Even using the previous Governments own figures of 16 hour tailbacks, the real figure could be many many time higher)

You paint a very bleak picture but in these days when everyone has a mobile, why cannot everyone who wants to go abroad, just register their finger print and when at the port, after making a booking using these finger print scans at home, just walk through or even better, someone with a scanning device, just visits the coach or car and checks that the finger prints registered are in that vehicle on that ticket.
There would have to be other random checks of course!

If one can open one's mobile or open a door in this way, why not exit or entry?

It would also filter out criminals!

 

[Brains]

You paint a very bleak picture but in these days when everyone has a mobile, why cannot everyone who wants to go abroad, just register their finger print and when at the port, after making a booking using these finger print scans at home, just walk through or even better, someone with a scanning device, just visits the coach or car and checks that the finger prints registered are in that vehicle on that ticket.
There would have to be other random checks of course!

If one can open one's mobile or open a door in this way, why not exit or entry?

It would also filter out criminals!

Or, do as every other major country (other than Denmark) did in most cases over 100 years ago.
(non compulsory) ID Cards, issued with every passport application and to every school leaver.

China has had phone based ID cards for years.

As a sideline, ID cards would overnight put a large stop to illegal immigration, as it would not be easy to disappear into the populace and get a job etc.

It should be remembered that EITAS has been in the pipeline for well over a decade.
If they had insisted on a personal appearance to get a new passport where the biometrics and fingerprints were taken at the same time as the passport photo, then by now well over 70% of the population would simply scan and go.

 

[gus-lopez]

why cannot everyone who wants to go abroad, just register their finger print and when at the port, after making a booking using these finger print scans at home, just walk through

I can see problems once people who are abroad longer than there benefit claims allow or even live out of the Uk, realise that the 'fingerprint & facial id' means that everyone knows where they are, when they left/returned? as in a back door id card

 

[L' Hobo]

I can see problems once people who are abroad longer than there benefit claims allow or even live out of the Uk, realise that the 'fingerprint & facial id' means that everyone knows where they are, when they left/returned? as in a back door id card

That would only cause 'problems' for people who break the law I would have thought?

Why should some people obey the law and not others, this not only let's people get away not paying taxes, claiming benefits etc. but put a cost burden on the taxpayer when they are prosicuted and, possibly, jailed.

 

[busby]

Only 15 minutes

And they need no documentation whatsoever.
BUSBY.

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[PlacidoD]

you have to do fingerprints or facial at every crossing as how would they tie up passport details with who is holding it? That is my understanding?

Not so Gus. I have been reading up on it today. There are two parts to this process EES which is scheduled for November 2024. That requires the taking of fingerprints and photos and will be the tediously slow bit. Then on an unspecified date said to be the 2nd half of 2025 ETIAS kicks in. You will then have to apply online and pay a fee (7 euros I think) for a visa that lasts 3 years or until you current passport expires whichever is the earlier.

If you already have done the EES bit ETIAS should be straight forward with processing promised in under 96 hours for most of us. Once both of those are in place processing should take hardly any longer than now.

So on your first visit after November remember to look your best for your picture to be taken and maybe think carefully about whether you want e.g to keep that moustache as when you shave it off later it might cause system ID problems for the system!!!

I am planning a trip after Easter to get the EES bit done. I can then apply on line as and when necessary for ETIAS for a August/September visit.

 

[gus-lopez]

That would only cause 'problems' for people who break the law I would have thought?

Why should some people obey the law and not others, this not only let's people get away not paying taxes, claiming benefits etc. but put a cost burden on the taxpayer when they are prosicuted and, possibly, jailed.

It is the "back door ID card " bit that people will not like; which is what I was pointing out

So on your first visit after November remember to look your best for your picture to be taken and maybe think carefully about whether you want e.g to keep that moustache as when you shave it off later it might cause system ID problems for the system!!!

Fortunately neither of those apply to me as a non resident citizen holding a spanish id card.

 

[martin2603]

Do you pass through the EU lane?

 

[Kups]

Do you pass through the EU lane?

The physical layout of all channel ports will change to accommodate the new system. My guess is that UK residents will have the largest space/lanes at the ports. So, no we'll not be in the EU passport lanes.

 

[BriannYe]

Rumour had it that EES may be delayed a week as France and Germany are not ready!

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[Kups]

Rumour had it that EES may be delayed a week as France and Germany are not ready!

Haha, not so efficient in Deutschland then! Maybe the French are delayed by taking extended lunch hours

 

[jongood]

Rumour had it that EES may be delayed a week as France and Germany are not ready!

I reckon it will be another few months at least

EU fingerprint and facial recognition checks expected to be delayed again | European Union | The Guardian

Border checks system was due to go live in November but some countries say they are not ready

amp.theguardian.com

Im going to hazard a guess at next 29th February- possibly

 

[ChrisSue]

We came back through Krakov airport on Monday and Sue was asked to stand in front of a recognition screen. I asked if it was to do with the new scheme and yes but it was only a trial

 

[martin2603]

Wow 68000 Coaches a year throuigh Dover ! Large proportion of senior travellers no doubt.. Talking to one local coach Operator at aCPC Course a couple of weeks back, they said they will no longer offer European Tours,as it will be too much hassle.. So thats a few less. Some years ago returning through Heathrow one traveller who had Iris recognition was through in a few imigration seconds flat. So why on earth can one not get pre registration when renewing a Passport. Or would that be just to simple and straight forward. Our Heathrow Traveller was on fourse not travelling in a vehicle.

 

[Brains]

Wow 68000 Coaches a year throuigh Dover ! Large proportion of senior travellers no doubt.. Talking to one local coach Operator at aCPC Course a couple of weeks back, they said they will no longer offer European Tours,as it will be too much hassle.. So thats a few less. Some years ago returning through Heathrow one traveller who had Iris recognition was through in a few imigration seconds flat. So why on earth can one not get pre registration when renewing a Passport. Or would that be just to simple and straight forward. Our Heathrow Traveller was on fourse not travelling in a vehicle.

see post #62 with the same issue.

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[steve69]

if you're in a motorhome and I assume most people on here will be, just relax have a nice cup of tea and listen to the radio during the time it will take for you to get through all that palavar..