Fashion or necessity?

[PaulW2]

There is a fair bit of discussion here about electric cars versus ICE engines, with a spectrum of opinions and two clear poles.

On the one side those who say things like net zero is oversold, and if anything we should invest more in mitigation of climate change rather than trying to control it. Electric cars are (still) too limited, there isn't enough of an infrastructure, we can't be sure what future tax policy (and energy costs) will be and so forth.

On the other side the end of fossil fuel is inevitable, we need to embrace the change. And we should pollute less and be more concerned about the environment, polar bears and children. Real men eat plants.

And there is obviously a spectrum of opinions in between.

Then - and this is my question - we also have some of the motorhome-related tech changes. We often hear that we should have the biggest possible lithium battery banks, as many solar panels as possible, compressor rather than 3-way fridges, induction hobs rather than gas, and so on.

It is really interesting, but in this case we seem to have a shortage of people on the other side of this debate - I don't notice too many people saying "Well, who needs this new-fangled stuff? My leisure battery may (possibly) now be lithium but I use gas for most things and it works very well, thank you very much. My 3-way fridge gives me good flexibility and works well."

What do you think is going on? Is there a real "business case" for doing as much as possible using batteries rather than gas or is it fashion?

 

[Janine]

Is lithium an infinite resource?

 

[PaulW2]

Is lithium an infinite resource?

Presumably not, but I think it can be recycled?

 

[meanders]

I think LPG for heating, cooking and cooling will be around for a good while yet. I suspect a full cylinder of LPG contains more potential energy per unit of weight than Lithium batteries plus a decent size inverter but I can't find any evidence to support this. You would also need to take into account the relative efficiencies of heating or cooking by electric vs LPG. I guess someone, somewhere has done the sums, but I doubt it's simple.

 

[L' Hobo]

Sadly, it's neither, it's a business venture making business men very rich.

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[Jon Stewart]

Presumably not, but I think it can be recycled?

Extremely difficult.

Even recycling via plasmolysing it is extremely expensive.

If we get to having to use recycled lithium at scale, it's likely that very few will be able to afford a car

 

[Jon Stewart]

I think LPG for heating, cooking and cooling will be around for a good while yet. I suspect a full cylinder of LPG contains more potential energy per unit of weight than Lithium batteries plus a decent size inverter but I can't find any evidence to support this. You would also need to take into account the relative efficiencies of heating or cooking by electric vs LPG. I guess someone, somewhere has done the sums, but I doubt it's simple.

Energy density in fossil fuels is many, many times greater than lithium batteries.

 

[The Wino]

I think the amount of gas burned in cooking and heating will produce very little pollution compared to a petrol engine and way less that diesel so less gain environmentally to switch to lithium. Sooner or later I think battery power for motorhome propulsion is going to come it will then quite likely be possible to use the vehicle battery to power everything and have solar to replace the extra used for habitation.

 

[Pausim]

I think LPG for heating, cooking and cooling will be around for a good while yet. I suspect a full cylinder of LPG contains more potential energy per unit of weight than Lithium batteries plus a decent size inverter but I can't find any evidence to support this. You would also need to take into account the relative efficiencies of heating or cooking by electric vs LPG. I guess someone, somewhere has done the sums, but I doubt it's simple.

A 10kg Safefill Cylinder weighs 15kg when full. Every kg of propane holds 14kWh of energy so a full Safefill has 140 kWh of energy in it (10x14). Divide the 140kWh by the 15kg total weight of bottle and gas gives you 9.3kWh of energy for every 1kg of payload.

My 230Ah battery weighs 22kg. The energy stored is 230Ahx12.8V (nominal voltage) which amounts to bit under 3kWh. Divide 3kWh by 22 gives you 0.136kWh energy for every 1kg of payload.

 

[gus-lopez]

On the other side the end of fossil fuel is inevitable,

Why? There are more reserves now than there were 60 years ago?

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[PaulW2]

Why? There are more reserves now than there were 60 years ago?

Well, putting on that hat, there are of course a few arguments. One is that the actual reserves are naturally finite. The other is that the reserves that are being found are increasingly difficult or expensive or environmentally costly to exploit - deep sea oil, shale and so on.

So we may have more reserves that have been found (but not yet exploited) but the real reserves are, by definition, not infinite.

And there has been a debate about peak oil - whereafter oil production will irreversibly decline. Present projections of that event seem to have quite a wide cone of uncertainty - "between 2028 and 2050" wikipedia tells me.

Elsewhere one reads that we have used maybe a trillion barrels and there may be c. 1.5 trillion left that can be exploited with current technology

My guess is that we will be ok in my lifetime and it is pretty likely that we could still keep going with oil for decades.

But at some point we will run out of that resource.

 

[The Wino]

Why? There are more reserves now than there were 60 years ago?

There might be more reserves that we know about but less than there were 60 years ago as there is no new oil being produced.

 

[L' Hobo]

There might be more reserves that we know about but less than there were 60 years ago as there is no new oil being produced.

Why not, nature doesn't just stop and there's still a lot of places like Alaska to explore?

 

[Barchetta47]

It is really interesting, but in this case we seem to have a shortage of people on the other side of this debate - I don't notice too many people saying "Well, who needs this new-fangled stuff? My leisure battery may (possibly) now be lithium but I use gas for most things and it works very well, thank you very much. My 3-way fridge gives me good flexibility and works well."

Obviously it depends on how you use your motorhome and where you go. This is us….

We are on the ‘other side’ of the debate as you put it. We spend all of our 180 days a year either in Europe or Morocco. We have two 115ah batteries supported by a single 100w solar panel. We cook on gas and have a 3 way fridge, the fridge works better on gas, supported by a gaslow system of an 11kg and 6kg bottles. Our MH is 20 years old and still has the original fridge, gas boiler and fan heating.

In terms of usage we do not have a TV but we listen to lots of podcasts etc and keep all our devices 2 iPads and 2 iPhones charged up. We cook either using the gas hob or SMEV oven roughly 4/5 days a week. Sometimes we park up for 4/5 days otherwise we tour and stop for 1/2 nights. Even if we have electricity available we often don’t bother with it as the fridge works better on gas. The batteries never show less than 12.7v even if we use the heating for 2-4 hours on our winter travels to Spain/Morocco. In Morocco we haven’t used EHU in the last two years because of the surging etc and in each case we were away for more than 2 months. We use about 1litre of LPG a day give or take so 80 cents a day. I only fill up in Europe and never go out of my way to fill up Ist do it as and when. In Morocco we use the Gaslow adaptor into the fill point and use a local 13kg cylinder which I think last year cost £8 with the deposit and £4 to swap, cheap as chips.

So for me why change?

 

[The Wino]

Why not, nature doesn't just stop and there's still a lot of places like Alaska to explore?

It takes millions of years for oil to form. We might find some undiscovered deposits in fact if we look we almost certainly will but it's not newly formed so there is a finite amount. The obvious question is what use is finding it if we can't use it without making our planet uninhabitable.

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[Northernraider]

I don't follow fashion

I do what's best for my pocket longterm

No intention to ever own am electric vehicle. Gas has always been better than electric I'll use it till it runs out.

 

[dunnah01]

If something has reached the end of it's useful life then changing tech may be beneficial. Hard to make an argument to scrap something just because some other tech has a big marketing department

 

[DandJ]

It is really interesting, but in this case we seem to have a shortage of people on the other side of this debate - I don't notice too many people saying "Well, who needs this new-fangled stuff? My leisure battery may (possibly) now be lithium but I use gas for most things and it works very well, thank you very much. My 3-way fridge gives me good flexibility and works well."

What do you think is going on? Is there a real "business case" for doing as much as possible using batteries rather than gas or is it fashion?

We are new to this MoHo lark (in a 2022 van) and have 2 old fashioned batteries, a gas bottle feeding a gas hob and little water boiler. We'll not change anything until it is needed. Reading some of the posts on here it is obvious that lots of people have far more disposable income than me and are happy to swap a perfectly good working set up for a new one...that does exactly the same. (some of the figures bandied about are eye-watering)
I'd say it was definitely a mix of fashion coupled with good marketing 'You need this ! " sort of nonsense.

 

[Barriesimpson]

I'll open up a can of worms here, there is no reason to stop using fossil fuels. The climate change that is happening is just another cycle of world climate that has always happened since the beginning of time and there is nothing we can do about it. The real challenge is to acclimatize to the changes.

 

[Northernraider]

I'll open up a can of worms here, there is no reason to stop using fossil fuels. The climate change that is happening is just another cycle of world climate that has always happened since the beginning of time and there is nothing we can do about it. The real challenge is to acclimatize to the changes.

Stop talking sense Barrie

How are millionaires going to get richer if we don't believe in the climate crisis and throw away perfectly good stuff to buy newer crapper stuff.

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[Barriesimpson]

Stop talking sense Barrie

How are millionaires going to get richer if we don't believe in the climate crisis and throw away perfectly good stuff to buy newer crapper stuff.

Yes, of course, I don't know what came over me there. Sorry for being sensible.

 

[Northernraider]

Incidentally there are more polar bears now than there were in the 60's ... their numbers are increasing not decreasing

50 years after hunting ban polar bears are thriving, new report shows - The Global Warming Policy Foundation

Among other issues addressed in this year’s report, Crockford explains that population surveys of Western Hudson Bay polar bears completed in 2011, 2016, and 2

www.thegwpf.org

 

[PaulW2]

It takes millions of years for oil to form. We might find some undiscovered deposits in fact if we look we almost certainly will but it's not newly formed so there is a finite amount. The obvious question is what use is finding it if we can't use it without making our planet uninhabitable.

Biodiesel?

It is currently being produced though the projections have been that one may need about 60% of cropland if it is to be exclusively relied on.

Then again, the Dutch and others are doing very well in producing large amounts of food in polytunnel-type arrangements.

Perhaps we can have some electric cars and some diesel/biodiesel ones where they would be more suitable. A 'hybrid' model

 

[L' Hobo]

It takes millions of years for oil to form. We might find some undiscovered deposits in fact if we look we almost certainly will but it's not newly formed so there is a finite amount. The obvious question is what use is finding it if we can't use it without making our planet uninhabitable.

So when did the making of oil actually stop and why?
Surely the process is ongoing or did it stop when the dinosaurs became extinct?

There is still 2/3rds of the world that hasn't been explored for oil. I'm talking of Earth's Oceans of course AND vast tracts of land in North & South of the world.

Modern oil drills can travel for many miles with sideways drilling, the drillhead no longer needs to be above the well.

As for your last sentence, I don't understand.
It is up to man. There has been an alternative to to the ICE for years, it has been used to propel gigantic vessels and small turbines propel narrow boats, I'm talking about steam of course!

There have been steam cars for over 100,yrs which would have got better and better had not the petroleum companies killed them off.
There is MANY alternatives to oil but vested interest have not used because it would hit their pockets!

 

[DandJ]

So when did the making of oil actually stop and why?
Surely the process is ongoing or did it stop when the dinosaurs became extinct?

There is still 2/3rds of the world that hasn't been explored for oil. I'm talking of Earth's Oceans of course AND vast tracts of land in North & South of the world.

Modern oil drills can travel for many miles with sideways drilling, the drillhead no longer needs to be above the well.

As for your last sentence, I don't understand.
It is up to man. There has been an alternative to to the ICE for years, it has been used to propel gigantic vessels and small turbines propel narrow boats, I'm talking about steam of course!

There have been steam cars for over 100,yrs which would have got better and better had not the petroleum companies killed them off.
There is MANY alternatives to oil but vested interest have not used because it would hit their pockets!

The process of nature making oil is ongoing, you're right. It's just that 'naturally' it appears to take 1-2 million years...150 yrs of oil exploration doesn't really dent that time period...nature won't be making much fresh stuff while mankind uses that that's already made.
Remind me again...how did they produce the steam?

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[Pausim]

The issue is not whether there is any oil left but the damage burning it does. The planet will survive but will it be somewhere fit for us to live?

 

[68c]

Best ban volcanoes and thawing tundra then.

 

[PaulW2]

The issue is not whether there is any oil left but the damage burning it does. The planet will survive but will it be somewhere fit for us to live?

That is of course an issue.

This is where it often switches into a discussion about our contribution. The UK presently contributes somewhere around 1% of global emissions. And many other countries at different stages of development are very much less exercised by this issue and are contributing more. Given a global climate it requires everyone's cooperation or our efforts will be wasted.

To which the response is that we still need to do our part, the fact that others are emitting more doesn't mean we shouldn't make an effort. Lead by example and so on.

Then some (like Rishi Sunak) say but we can't undermine our own economic performance against others and we can only move as fast as is sensible.

Then Sunak is out, Ed Miliband says what he says, and so we go on.

And that's before we even get to the debate about how much of the climate change outcome is already baked in, what difference our actions today will make. Ever notice how we've been at 1 minute to midnight pretty much forever but we never actually seem to get there? What cost should we incur to achieve which benefit? Notice how one almost never encounters proper sober dispassionate analysis of this. Everything is a campaigning position, a marketing opportunity.

So in my little corner - 1 in 67,000,000 of 1% - I just have to tend my own patch and do my own thing.

(If we do want to get into discussions about global fairness and looking after the world's population there are many burning issues which much has been written about and which will place real ethical demands on us. But we never seem to talk about that because it's not part of the catechism du jour.)

 

[L' Hobo]

That is of course an issue.

This is where it often switches into a discussion about our contribution. The UK presently contributes somewhere around 1% of global emissions. And many other countries at different stages of development are very much less exercised by this issue and are contributing more. Given a global climate it requires everyone's cooperation or our efforts will be wasted.

To which the response is that we still need to do our part, the fact that others are emitting more doesn't mean we shouldn't make an effort. Lead by example and so on.

Then some (like Rishi Sunak) say but we can't undermine our own economic performance against others and we can only move as fast as is sensible.

Then Sunak is out, Ed Miliband says what he says, and so we go on.

And that's before we even get to the debate about how much of the climate change outcome is already baked in, what difference our actions today will make. Ever notice how we've been at 1 minute to midnight pretty much forever but we never actually seem to get there? What cost should we incur to achieve which benefit? Notice how one almost never encounters proper sober dispassionate analysis of this. Everything is a campaigning position, a marketing opportunity.

So in my little corner - 1 in 67,000,000 of 1% - I just have to tend my own patch and do my own thing.

(If we do want to get into discussions about global fairness and looking after the world's population there are many burning issues which much has been written about and which will place real ethical demands on us. But we never seem to talk about that because it's not part of the catechism du jour.)

I have always said, and tried to follow the ethic that, if EVERYONE looked after the own patch 'properly' ( instead of worrying about others) the world would be a far better place!

 

[CustomBuild]

I enjoyed my MacBook on wheels (Model X) it was fun, fun and more fun until I tried to tow anything. Then it simply didn’t work as advertised (no surprise there). So they gave me my money back, which I thought was exceedingly sporting of them and I agreed not to make a legal case out of it. Then I bought an ICE and have been towing happily ever after.

On the other side of the equation though, I did strip out 100% of the propane system in my rig and have been camping happily courtesy of the sun for 3 years now. 1000w of solar runs two electric water heaters, oven, cooker, electric fire, refrigerator, kettle, toaster, coffee maker, mini-split air conditioning system and more. Just not all at the same time of course. Oh, and I carry an ICE generator to make sure things work as planned and prefer full hookup at campsites.

Fashion or necessity? I believe the answer is somewhere in the middle.