Electrical / Battery dilemma - lead acid, gel or lithium?

[Lenny HB]

I’m not sure that’s the case
The guy who’s selling the lithium batteries suggested a Gel (I think) charging profile would be ok for lithium

The Gel charging voltage is too low also if you want to take advantage of fast charging you need a much bigger charger, would need a lot more solar to take advantage of fast charging, would also need to fit a B2B as you can't charge directly from the alternator. Said it all in my earlier post #5

 

[Robert Clark]

The Gel charging voltage is too low also if you want to take advantage of fast charging you need a much bigger charger, would need a lot more solar to take advantage of fast charging, would also need to fit a B2B as you can't charge directly from the alternator. Said it all in my earlier post #5

Please excuse my ignorance but as a leisure battery you’re not connecting directly to the alternator are you?

Surely the existing solar regulator would charge Lithium batteries much more efficiently than Gel as there is no absorption phase?

And as the OP spends much of their time wild camping the maximum charging rate of the battery charger is irrelevant surely?

 

[Lenny HB]

Please excuse my ignorance but as a leisure battery you’re not connecting directly to the alternator are you?

The standard split charge relay does just that, that's why you need to replace it with a B2B.

Surely the existing solar regulator would charge Lithium batteries much more efficiently than Gel as there is no absorption phase?

He only has 100w of solar, even with the lower Perkant exponent you will only gain a bit, OK you gain a bit by not needing the long absorption phase but if you really want to take advantage of Lithium you need a lot more solar.

And as the OP spends much of their time wild camping the maximum charging rate of the battery charger is irrelevant surely?

As the mains charger would need replacing anyway might as well fit one suitable for the job.

 

[eddie]

Perhaps you ought to refer back to my original response

Why? I simply queried why you misquoted me?

It was another poster who claimed lithium had double the capacity.

This is where things get a tad difficult. Robert Clark is a real life funster who travels a lot and has actually put his hand in his pocket and bought lithium batteries and is delighted with the performance, using them in his motorhome as he frequently tour Europe in his motorhome, which is "fully loaded" as they say, as he is a man, that doesn't like to compromise. Some, are people who lecture about Lithium, but have never fitted them into their motorhomes so their opinions are by comparison to Roberts, assumption or guess work.

However, when we come to capacity, its simply wrong to say a lithium battery has double the capacity. Its far more complicated than that as I'm sure you are aware. One manufacturer puts it very well:

If you cycled your lithium battery once a day, it would offer more than 14 years of life, while the competition lasts less than two years. The initial cost of lithium is worth the long-term value.

We advise our Lithium customers that Lithiums should be considered "transferable" and swapped over when the motorhome is changed. I tend to buy a new camper every two or three years, so it would be unthinkable for me to have all the benefits of Lithium and simply leave them in the old van when I order the new one. I have yet to see anything to suggest that the depth of discharge suggested by the manufacturers is in anyway incorrect, but have personally witnessed the Sterling 100Ah Lithium batteries producing 100 amps, via the Victron BMS 702 and have noticed a significant stabilisation on my own installation due to virtually eliminating voltage drop and the associated issues.

When one considers how many times one would discharge a battery down to 80% in a year, for the vast majority of us, lithium simply isn't cost effective yet. I probably cycle my battery less than once a week, so a lifespan of 5-6 years is fine by me, thats probably how long I will keep the van, but why would I want a battery that lasted 70 years?

just because you keep a van that long, and just because you only cycle your batteries once a week doesn't mean that your right and others are wrong. Other people use their motorhomes in different ways,

If money was no object, yes I'd fit them for the other advantages, but I can think of better uses for my money at the moment.

The bottom line is that not everyone is equal, not all vans cost the same, and cost isn't everyone's number one criteria. Performance and payload are often more important than the cost, and some people are simply able to buy what they want to make them as comfortable as possible

 

[Robert Clark]

The standard split charge relay does just that, that's why you need to replace it with a B2B.

He only has 100w of solar, even with the lower Perkant exponent you will only gain a bit, OK you gain a bit by not needing the long absorption phase but if you really want to take advantage of Lithium you need a lot more solar.

As the mains charger would need replacing anyway might as well fit one suitable for the job.

In my own experience of Gel and Lithium I found that once I left home my gel batteries never reached full charge, due to their long absorption phase.

I found that this made a massive difference to the charge time on solar and therefore meant that the charging potential of the solar panels was never fully realised. The sun often set before the absorption phase was complete.

With my lithium batteries, they take a full charge, irrespective of the charging method, until they’re full.

It’s great seeing this in action even in the winter.

I agree with your comments regarding the B2B charger, but in the first instance the OP could see how they got on before investing in extra solar or B2B charger, or an upgraded charger as they may never need them.

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[thebriars]

The bottom line is that not everyone is equal, not all vans cost the same, and cost isn't everyone's number one criteria. Performance and payload are often more important than the cost, and some people are simply able to buy what they want to make them as comfortable as possible

I agree, every situation is different, however, I come back to my initial point that it is not correct to say an equivalent sized lithium battery has twice the capacity. This is a hugely misleading statement to post on here which could give some a less than complete understanding of the place for lithium batteries.

 

[eddie]

I agree, every situation is different, however, I come back to my initial point that it is not correct to say an equivalent sized lithium battery has twice the capacity. This is a hugely misleading statement to post on here which could give some a less than complete understanding of the place for lithium batteries.

Who said that?

The member that had bought them and is using them?

Can you give me any actual evidence to suggest that all of the Lithium battery manufacturers are lying suggesting that you can get 90 - 100% capacity

 

[eddie]

Really interesting video

 

[cliffanger]

cliffandger
Now you tell me!
I bought them on your recommendation... about two years ago!

To console myself I'm chilling out with a beer and this view.

View attachment 321436

Oh and its 40 degrees in the shade.

Thank you all for your advice so far.

Yeah, but we recommended them before they started to play up! Ignorance (at that time) was bliss!

Glad you’re consoling yourself in a shady 40 degrees - we are consoling ourselves, having stuffed a Bakewell Pork pie with this view ...

My heart bleeds for you .....

 

[cliffanger]

Bet you wished you’de never asked now... ? this could end up in the Belly Locker!

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[Camping Gaza]

Yeah, but we recommended them before they started to play up! Ignorance (at that time) was bliss!

Glad you’re consoling yourself in a shady 40 degrees - we are consoling ourselves, having stuffed a Bakewell Pork pie with this view ...

View attachment 321490

My heart bleeds for you .....

Good God... Is that a camp site? Don't tell me you actually have to PAY money to be parked up in mud. Oh dear!

 

[cliffanger]

Good God... Is that a camp site? Don't tell me you actually have to PAY money to be parked up in mud. Oh dear!

It’s a THS - we’ve had a lovely week in Pickering and Whitby, but when the weather turned we thought we’de head to better weather on the way back south!

 

[Camping Gaza]

Hope it gets better for you soon!

 

[thebriars]

Who said that?

The member that had bought them and is using them?

Can you give me any actual evidence to suggest that all of the Lithium battery manufacturers are lying suggesting that you can get 90 - 100% capacity

Sigh. Not disputing that you can discharge a lithium battery to 90% but I do dispute a similar capacity lead acid battery has only half the capacity:

With lithium’s at £500 each it’s a no brainer in my opinion as you double your capacity and gain payload in one go.

 

[cliffanger]

Hope it gets better for you soon!

Note the time- we’ve just escaped the waterlogged field and have driven into town and parked up roadside - the water came up to mid calf level!

Travellers are holed up in the agricultural market area and have been doing water feature wheelies all afternoon past the van. They stopped momentarily when the police paid a visit but resumed straight after they left. Not the best THS we’ve stayed on!

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[Just smiffy]

If my two pennies are worth anything.... I have 3 panels of 100w each and a victron mppt for each panel....
We do a fair bit of off grid and have a fairly high consumption with inverter, I have never had any concerns about low batteries....
and wait for it.......... I’ve recently discovered my batteries are 7yrs old and are AGM’s ???

I think it doesn’t matter what battery you have.... it’s how you put that charge back in to them that matters...?

 

[Gromett]

Really interesting video

Always worth watching this video if you have doubts about Li batteries. Bear in mind this test is thoroughly abusive so you will get better results in real life usage.

 

[Gromett]

Sigh. Not disputing that you can discharge a lithium battery to 90% but I do dispute a similar capacity lead acid battery has only half the capacity:

If you buy a 100AH Li and a 100AH Pb battery then based on the following.
1) You can safely discharge a Pb battery to 60% but any lower and you are starting to impact longevity. (40% of rated capacity usable)
2) You can safely discharge an Li battery to 10% and charge to 90% but any lower/higher and you are going to reduce longevity. (80% of rated capacity usable).

It is fair to say in general terms that the lead acid battery has only half the "usable" capacity.

Perhaps not accurate in all use cases but as a general rule it is the case.

Watch the video linked to by Eddie a few posts up.

If anyone is interested in the technicalities of LiFePO4 batteries this is well worth a watch... I have posted before but worth posting again. Really interesting.

 

[autorouter]

Also the switch off voltage (sic) of the efoy is 14.2 VDC so wouldn't work well with Lithium

Is it possible to use a B2B in straightforward no-ignition mode, to control the voltage into the battery from the Efoy cell? If the B2B had a lithium battery profile, it would charge it correctly. Maybe Sterling would have a view about this

 

[thebriars]

If you buy a 100AH Li and a 100AH Pb battery then based on the following.
1) You can safely discharge a Pb battery to 60% but any lower and you are starting to impact longevity. (40% of rated capacity usable)
2) You can safely discharge an Li battery to 10% and charge to 90% but any lower/higher and you are going to reduce longevity. (80% of rated capacity usable).

It is fair to say in general terms that the lead acid battery has only half the "usable" capacity.

I don't agree with your last statement. You impact on longevity every time you charge or discharge or even store a battery, be it lithium or lead acid or gel. Fact.

With a lead acid costing £100, yes it has a limited lifespan, which for most of us equates to 5-6 years because we don't always discharge the thing fully each time. For a £500 lithium ion battery you need to get 25-30 years use out of it to be on a par.

Battery technology is evolving rapidly, driven by the requirement of electric cars. How long before your expensive last-a-lifetime lithium battery is obsolete?

Finally, an interesting thought. You get a 2 year warranty with a lead acid battery. You get 5 years with a lithium. Not much of an endorsement of their longlivety!

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[eddie]

I don't agree with your last statement. You impact on longevity every time you charge or discharge or even store a battery, be it lithium or lead acid or gel. Fact.

With a lead acid costing £100, yes it has a limited lifespan, which for most of us equates to 5-6 years because we don't always discharge the thing fully each time. For a £500 lithium ion battery you need to get 25-30 years use out of it to be on a par.

Battery technology is evolving rapidly, driven by the requirement of electric cars. How long before your expensive last-a-lifetime lithium battery is obsolete?

Finally, an interesting thought. You get a 2 year warranty with a lead acid battery. You get 5 years with a lithium. Not much of an endorsement of their longlivety!

Your whole argument is based on cost, important to some, but not to all. This is why people queue at Midnight to get their hands on the maga amazing iPhoneSamung 10 when the queue is full of people who have the iPhoneSamsung 9

As I have said many times the only disadvantage of Lithium batteries is the cost, and cost isn't the main selection criteria to many, which is why there is a market for Morello motorhomes and also Eldiss motorhomes when fundamentally they both do the same job, a job that it could be argued could be done with a tent from Asda! So not every decision is based on the cheapest or best value

 

[Robert Clark]

Your whole argument is based on cost, important to some, but not to all. This is why people queue at Midnight to get their hands on the maga amazing iPhoneSamung 10 when the queue is full of people who have the iPhoneSamsung 9

As I have said many times the only disadvantage of Lithium batteries is the cost, and cost isn't the main selection criteria to many, which is why there is a market for Morello motorhomes and also Eldiss motorhomes when fundamentally they both do the same job, a job that it could be argued could be done with a tent from Asda! So not every decision is based on the cheapest or best value

Sadly some people confuse price with cost Eddie

Price is purely the up front expenditure.

Whereas cost is spread over the whole life of the product.

I may be wrong but when you compare the lifespan of lithium compared with other batteries, lithium at £500 each beats them hands down.

Add to this intangible benefits like weight, , physical size / storage capacity, ability to discharge to 100% without loss of performance, makes better use of solar as it charges at its full rate until full (no long absorption phase) and it makes other batteries look like a false economy.

Cheap often isn’t the lowest cost

 

[Pausim]

Also the switch off voltage (sic) of the efoy is 14.2 VDC so wouldn't work well with Lithium

Latest Efoy’s include a LiFePO4 profile and I believe updating earlier ones just involves a software update.

Firmware Update EFOY fuel cells

We are continuously working on improving our fuel cells. Therefore we offer you free firmware updates at regular intervals.

www.efoy-comfort.com

 

[Armytwowheels]

For us, it is all about how we use our van.

Everything is great in the summer using Lead Acid, when the sun is high and the solar can do it's stuff. However, in the winter, when days are short and the sun doesn't get so high, quick charging either by solar or engine is what it is all about for us.

The flexibility to stay of grid in the Alps (or even in Southern Spain) during the winter is going to make the lithium investment worth while. I am not bothered if I could buy dozens of LA batteries for the price of two Lithiums, it's all about the convenience.

 

[funflair]

Is it possible to use a B2B in straightforward no-ignition mode, to control the voltage into the battery from the Efoy cell? If the B2B had a lithium battery profile, it would charge it correctly. Maybe Sterling would have a view about this

If I had lithium batteries (I don’t) I would be inclined to ask EFOY about charging them as the EFOY web site says that firmware 15.11 and above is configured for lithium.

Martin

Edit oops sorry Pausim didn’t read far enough.

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[Pausim]

I have just been through all the thought processes with the purchase of our new motorhome. Finalised it yesterday with dealer’s auto electrician. Transferring Li and B2B from existing motorhome and purchased new Efoy 140. The B2B and the Efoy both have Li profiles so I will always arrive with a full battery and be able to maintain it if I need to stay more than one night. If moving on next day will let battery drop and recharge via B2B. Decided not to bother reinstalling Li mains charger but will keep it in case of problems. The installed Gel charger with 14.3/13.8V will not maintain Li battery at 100% but I won’t need it full when on a mains hookup, it will fully recharge from the B2B when moving on. Li battery will come to no harm with less than 100% charge, indeed as mentioned above it is probably beneficial.

 

[thebriars]

Your whole argument is based on cost, important to some, but not to all. This is why people queue at Midnight to get their hands on the maga amazing iPhoneSamung 10 when the queue is full of people who have the iPhoneSamsung 9

I suggest you read back. The only point I am making, and have made is that it is misleading to say that a lithium battery has double the usable capacity of a lead acid battery. It doesn't.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

I suggest you read back. The only point I am making, and have made is that it is misleading to say that a lithium battery has double the usable capacity of a lead acid battery. It doesn't.

I think you made many points, if you could read back through the posts. The only argument I can see is wanting the last word on a discussion.

 

[Mr Mousy]

Thank you all for your advice.

Right then you lot (well some of you) put your handbags away... forget lithium!
The changes needed to charge them properly within my Schaudt (additional charger module needed) / Efoy (mine has no Lithium setting) / solar system (not enough of it) is beyond my technical ability and frankly not worth the effort as our power usage is not massive and our lives don't depend on it. However if it was a straight swap then I would buy lithium as I do like the idea of being an early adopter.

So.... The new batteries will be Gel. Please can you recommend (from first hand experience) a good quality Gel battery that my Schaudt EBL101 controller / charger will look after.

Thanks, Martin

 

[funflair]

I am more than happy with EXIDE ES900 80ah gel’s.

Martin

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