Electric car batteries with five-minute charging times produced

[68c]

Have you ever noticed those aircraft engine starting trailers (Ground Power Unit) used on medium sized commuter aircraft airports, they out put around 1000Amps at 28Volts DC during the initial start phase. That is 28KW. You can hear the big six cylinder diesel motor dig in as it carries the load accompanied by a cloud of black smoke. That initial 1000Amps soon drops off to several hundred but still a heavy load on the generator. Imagine one of those, with a 400Volt genny, running for the two hours it would need to charge an EV battery. Gives you some idea of the supply needed at the charge point. I do like the Tesla idea of having a large battery continually on charge from which power is taken when charging a customers EV, unlikely to be a five minute charge but could smooth out the power demands of the charging station.

 

[Langtoftlad]

I doubt very much that as Hydrogen technology develops that we are going to be driving around with a huge balloon of Hydrogen floating above the vehicle as was the case with Hindenburg.

Coming to a car showroom in the future;

 

[rod_vw]

"Due to gasoline shortages late in the war, a few "Holzbrenner" Volkswagen Beetles were built, which were fueled with logs of wood. The logs were converted into combustible gases using pyrolysis gas producers located under the front hood, so the car could retain its carbureted Otto engine."
German/American words 'hood' = front bonnet : 'Otto engine' = Four stroke petrol engine.

But I guess that didn't reduce the carbon emissions!

 

[68c]

"Due to gasoline shortages late in the war, a few "Holzbrenner" Volkswagen Beetles were built, which were fueled with logs of wood. The logs were converted into combustible gases using pyrolysis gas producers located under the front hood, so the car could retain its carbureted Otto engine."
German/American words 'hood' = front bonnet : 'Otto engine' = Four stroke petrol engine.

But I guess that didn't reduce the carbon emissions!

No, but you could sell the charcoal to the local school.

 

[Gromett]

A very interesting battery development that could revolutionise Batteries used in EV’s

Even makes Tesla’s battery technology look slow to charge, it is not a future technology it’s here and now I suspect Musk will be looking at this compared to what he is producing right now. <Broken link removed>

As reported in the Guardian


Exclusive: first factory production means recharging could soon be as fast as filling up petrol or diesel vehicles

Damian Carrington Environment editor
Published: 06:30 Tuesday, 19 January 2021
<Broken link removed>

Batteries capable of fully charging in five minutes have been produced in a factory for the first time, marking a significant step towards electric cars becoming as fast to charge as filling up petrol or diesel vehicles.
Electric vehicles are a vital part of action to tackle the climate crisis but running out of charge during a journey is a worry for drivers. The new lithium-ion batteries were developed by the Israeli company StoreDot and manufactured by Eve Energy in China on standard production lines.
StoreDot has already demonstrated its “extreme fast-charging” battery in phones, drones and scooters and the 1,000 batteries it has now produced are to showcase its technology to carmakers and other companies. Daimler, BP, Samsung and TDK have all invested StoreDot, which has raised $130m to date and was named a Bloomberg New Energy Finance Pioneer in 2020.

Lots of companies have the capability to do 5 minute charges. The problem is lifespan of the cells. If they have resolved that issue, production will be the next. Will be watching with interest.

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[Gromett]

Musk put money into StoreDot years ago, and partnered up with their development programme in 2018, recent developments with Tesla has already been heavily influenced by the project.

The flash technology will be a major turning point, once the price barrier is removed, they currently suggest 3 years, but it’s rumoured to be coming sooner.

They seem to be preparing for an IPO which suggests they are nearly ready to start.

I don't recall Tesla investing in StoreDot? Do you have a source for this?

As for influencing Tesla development i highly doubt that. Tesla have been pretty up front about things like this and they tend to buy companies rather than invest in them. Take a look at their acquisition of Maxwell a year or two ago.

 

[Gromett]

Charging in five minutes is all very well and possibly the way to go.

BUT, how many kW would be drawn at a motorway service station to charge at this rate on a busy day? Currently (no pun intended) the national electricity distribution infrastructure cannot provide any where near enough to support this technology.

Yes it can. using a combination of local and grid scale storage to buffer the demand peaks. Each charger has a battery which is charged at a steady rate. This is used to boost the current going into a car when it is plugged in. Lots of studies and engineering has already been done on this.
Remember unlike today where 100% of cars need to hit a petrol station it is a figure under 50% for EV's as most charge at home.

 

[Gromett]

Tesla has invested in super capacitors lately, which will be the way to go, I bought into Cap-X, who are currently in a battle with Tesla for stealing their (Cap-X) IP.

Then there are these https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201111-the-flying-car-is-here-vtols-jetpacks-and-air-taxis

They didn't invest in super capacitors. They bought Maxwell for their dry electrode technology. It just happens that Maxwell are best known for their super capacitors which are superb. Don't forget Musk went to do his PHD in Supercapacitors with transport in mind before ditching it.

 

[Gromett]

Hydrogen is still a possible solution.

No it's not. We have had this discussion already.

 

[Gromett]

I agree with 'Coolcats' and think that Hydrogen will become more prominent and the way to go.
I know that we are now off topic but it is worth discussing at some point.
Hardly any environmental damage and the only waste product is pure water.
Trouble with battery technology is that it is incredibly expensive to produce with also a relatively short lifespan before replacement of the battery required.
They also require a finite supply of rare earth elements to produce them whilst Hydrogen is limitless and the most abundant element in the universe.

Battery tech is cheaper than hydrogen tech.
Hydrogen uses well in excess of 3x the amount of electric to produce than directly charging a battery. Hydrogen has additional safety issues. Hydrogen has major transport issues. Hydrogen has major efficiency issues.

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[Gromett]

Ultra fast charging is worth a look
but I wonder about an interchangeable battery that you rent.
Just roll-up and swap out (one or two) for fully charged units.
Start by agreeing a standard...

Tesla looked into this and even had a test site which people could use. They dumped it as being unpractical and economically poor.

 

[Sandancers]

Lots of companies have the capability to do 5 minute charges. The problem is lifespan of the cells. If they have resolved that issue, production will be the next. Will be watching with interest.

How do these companies shift the power from the charger to the vehicle batteries in five minutes?

 

[Gromett]

I agree, hydrogen power via fuel cells does seem possible. Once we have enough nuclear reactors on line should be a doddle to make the hydrogen......what could go wrong?

You do know it takes 39.4KWh to produce 1KG of hydrogen in a 100% perfect system?

You will need 3x as much generation capacity minimum if we choose hydrogen over directly charging batteries.

 

[Gromett]

They've been working on hydrogen fuel cells for a long time but with limited resources. The technology is developed and needs two things to expand to useable levels (1) A simple method of delivering hydrogen on a form which can be loaded into a vehicle and (2) a safe form of containment in the vehicle. Neither are insurmountable but do need some more investment or tax advantages to become commercial. We can produce hydrogen in desert areas which don't have any other real benefits and the solar devices which split water into H and O may increase the viability of the desert environments by creating shade and bring riches to very poor areas. With hydrogen we have a non-polluting energy source with the potential to be taxed like hydrocarbons and accessed in service stations which make their money more from sales other than fuel. The infrastructure could remain viable until we do get autonomous vehicles. Even then the desirability of individual transport may keep us addicted to owning vehicles even when the financial case is absurd (as in owning a motorhome when we can't drive anywhere!)

You need 3x minimum the amount of generating capacity. See my previous post.

Each hydrogen fuelling station costs £2-5 million to build. Compared to the£100,000's for each battery charging station.

Who is going to invest in a network of hydrogen refuelling stations for hydrogen cars that don't exist?
Who is going to buy a hydrogen car if there are no refuelling stations.
This is a catch 22 that no one has explained to me adequately how they are going to resolve.

Hydrogen is most definately NOT the answer to cars, vans and lorries in this country.

 

[Gromett]

If the bank of chargers was at a National Grid substation then loads of power available. But no way could you get that from existing infrastructure down your street.

I would not like to lift a flexible cable around which could carry 250A or more! 4000v ? No thanks, the safety considerations would be horrendous and the insulation on the cables would be substantial. They would be heavy, man !

And not forgetting there would be an amount of cable internally to the car of the same size.

Shares in copper producing Companies look attractive suddenly.

You are correct. No one needs to go home and charge in 5 minutes. The current 7KW charger is actually more than adequate for most people as most people need to sleep for at least 8 hours never mind relaxing and eating etc. 8 x 7 = 56KWh which is more than enough to cover most peoples commuting and other uses. For long distances you would start off full then hit fast charger en-route.

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[Gromett]

How do these companies shift the power from the charger to the vehicle batteries in five minutes?

I should clarify my statement. Lots of companies have produced batteries that can be charged in 5 minutes. The problem is lifespan of the cells. If they have resolved that issue, production will be the next. Will be watching with interest.

 

[Sandancers]

I should clarify my statement. Lots of companies have produced batteries that can be charged in 5 minutes. The problem is lifespan of the cells. If they have resolved that issue, production will be the next. Will be watching with interest.

It hardly matters if they can charge in five minutes if you need cables too heavy to lift to connect the vehicle to the charger. Unless some form of docking system is envisaged.

 

[Gromett]

It hardly matters if they can charge in five minutes if you need cables too heavy to lift to connect the vehicle to the charger. Unless some form of docking system is envisaged.

The cable size is related to the current.

If you have 100 cells in parallel then you have low voltage but high current.
If you have 100 cells in series then you have high voltage and low current.

The latter will require a much thinner cable than the former.

It would be possible to have the batteries is smaller banks, and for driving purposes have them configured for 400v or 800v as required. Then during charging reconfigure them to be in series at much much higher voltage. The current draw would be massively reduced and the size of the cables reduced as a result.

 

[Vipar]

Why bother?
Did you see the USA testing the latest rocket launch engine? What sort of footprint did that leave?

 

[Sandancers]

The cable size is related to the current.

If you have 100 cells in parallel then you have low voltage but high current.
If you have 100 cells in series then you have high voltage and low current.

The latter will require a much thinner cable than the former.

It would be possible to have the batteries is smaller banks, and for driving purposes have them configured for 400v or 800v as required. Then during charging reconfigure them to be in series at much much higher voltage. The current draw would be massively reduced and the size of the cables reduced as a result.

I wonder what firemen would do if called to a vehicle crash in which they might find exposed terminals at 800v DC. Especially if had to start spraying water around ?

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[Gromett]

I wonder what firemen would do if called to a vehicle crash in which they might find exposed terminals at 800v DC. Especially if had to start spraying water around ?

In an accident there is a battery disconnect breaker which gets blown at the same time as the airbags go off.

I believe firemen are fully trained to deal with EV fires.

The ONLY issue with an EV fire is that it can relight quite a long time after it has been extinguished. But 800V is not an issue for them due to their training.

 

[nicholsong]

A similar disaster happened at Manchester airport some years ago. A plane was stationary on the ground, and the engine caught fire, and it spread to the rest of the plane. Due to a delayed evacuation, many people died. That was aviation fuel (kerosene). Nobody suggested banning it.

LPG is actually used as an explosive in some ground attack munitions. Is that banned?

Hydrogen is no more dangerous than any other fuel.

Aircraft was only stationary after 36 secs. from abandoning the take-off.

Full AAIB report here

8/1988 Boeing 737-236, G-BGJL, 22 August 1985

www.gov.uk

Geoff

 

[Sandancers]

In an accident there is a battery disconnect breaker which gets blown at the same time as the airbags go off.

I believe firemen are fully trained to deal with EV fires.

The ONLY issue with an EV fire is that it can relight quite a long time after it has been extinguished. But 800V is not an issue for them due to their training.

Well, it must be amazing training as I'd not want to be anywhere near 800v DC if the protection systems were damaged. At that voltage there no second chances.

 

[Gromett]

Well, it must be amazing training as I'd not want to be anywhere near 800v DC if the protection systems were damaged. At that voltage there no second chances.

They are trained to deal with far worse than 800V.. Nasty chemicals, Explosions, buildings falling down around them, high voltages at power stations and much much more.

I am sure there are firemen on here who can attest to how well they are trained.

I did a very very brief google and this was the first relevant result;

Electric Vehicle Fire Training

Cheshire Fire and Rescue Service - We work 24 hours a day to keep Cheshire safe from fires and other emergencies.

www.cheshirefire.gov.uk

 

[glenn2926]

They are trained to deal with far worse than 800V.. Nasty chemicals, Explosions, buildings falling down around them, high voltages at power stations and much much more.

I am sure there are firemen on here who can attest to how well they are trained.

I did a very very brief google and this was the first relevant result;

Electric Vehicle Fire Training

Cheshire Fire and Rescue Service - We work 24 hours a day to keep Cheshire safe from fires and other emergencies.

www.cheshirefire.gov.uk

There are a few of us on here. I am certainly not going into the training we have had. Last time the Fire Service was brought up in a thread there was a particularly awkward member who seemed to know a lot more than firemen about how the Fire Service operates. It's not worth it.

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[Ridgeway]

Ultra fast charging is worth a look
but I wonder about an interchangeable battery that you rent.
Just roll-up and swap out (one or two) for fully charged units.
Start by agreeing a standard...

It's been and gone and was called "Better Place"

I know as we rent their previous office near Tel Aviv

 

[Gromett]

There are a few of us on here. I am certainly not going into the training we have had. Last time the Fire Service was brought up in a thread there was a particularly awkward member who seemed to know a lot more than firemen about how the Fire Service operates. It's not worth it.

No details required. But a quick question. Are you concerned about dealing with EV fires?

 

[glenn2926]

No details required. But a quick question. Are you concerned about dealing with EV fires?

No not any more so than other high voltage electrical fires. There are standard operating procedures.

 

[Coolcats]

No it's not. We have had this discussion already.

It doesn’t matter what you or I think Gromett it is clear there is commercial interest in this area so time will tell. The companies that are investing in the R&D are not stupid. There is space for both battery and Hydrogen vehicles some of which exist more will come to the market place.

 

[Coolcats]

I should clarify my statement. Lots of companies have produced batteries that can be charged in 5 minutes. The problem is lifespan of the cells. If they have resolved that issue, production will be the next. Will be watching with interest.

Name the companies that can charge thier batteries in 5 minutes at the same capacity as Storedot as all the media news I have seen is saying that Storedot is the first to do a 5 minute charge or are they all wrong?

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