EHU quandary - Polarity

[Dave and Ginny]

Thanks for all the replies and comments. I'm not overly concerned by it, it's just odd that when it appears I have an EHU outlet that is the correct polarity, the wiring in the van reverses it! When the EHU outlet is indicating an incorrect polarity the van then changes that to correct!

I checked all my leads this morning and they are all correctly wired up.

Maybe it's always been like it, or some work previously has somehow 'reversed' some internal wiring. Maybe the previous owners @Kim H Kim and Anthony can throw some light on it?

It's possible it's just the internal sockets are wrong (double pole) and other 230v to fridge, Elektroblock etc is in fact correct. I'll just carry on using the correcting lead until home again and as @scotjimland Jim suggested get it tested out properly.

 

[Minxy]

It's possible it's just the internal sockets are wrong (double pole) and other 230v to fridge, Elektroblock etc is in fact correct. I'll just carry on using the correcting lead until home again and as @scotjimland Jim suggested get it tested out properly.

Removing one of the sockets would give you a clue ... if it's wired wrong, correct it and then see if it's okay, if so then that's your answer to the other sockets which are wired wrongly and would indicate that your van's main wiring is correct.

 

[pappajohn]

Having read more of your posts I would check ALL your leads for crossed wires, not just the deliberately crossed "short lead"
Try another (borrowed) hookup lead without the short lead and see if the polarity is correct.

 

[pappajohn]

never had a UK van.. so really can't comment what was or wasn't fitted.. I was thinking on DIY people who don't understand why they shouldn't fit a single pole switch socket, I have seen many fitted in continental vans INCLUDING mine, fitted by previous DIY bodger ..

17th edition regulations have all the latest requirements , extract ..

16.13.2 Requirements for safety

The protective measures of obstacles and placing out of reach are, not surprisingly, precluded by Regulation 721.410.3.5 and, similarly, the protective measures of non-conducting location, earth-free local equipotential bonding are precluded by Regulation 721.410.3.6. The use of the protective measure of electrical separation is not permitted except for shaver socket-outlets, as given in Regulation 721.410.3.3.2.

Regulation 721.411.1 calls for an RCD (see Figure 16.10) where protection by ADS is used (the normal method) with a protective conductor connecting the exposed-conductive-parts of the installation, including socket-outlet protective contacts, with the earthing contact of the caravan inlet plug. The RCD must comply with BS EN 61008-1 or BS EN 61009-1, interrupt all live (line and neutral) conductors and have the characteristics specified in Regulation 415.1.1 (In ≤ 30 mA and operating time ≤ 40 ms at a residual current of 5In).

All extraneous-conductive-parts accessible from within the caravan (or motor caravan) must be bonded with a main protective bonding conductor to the main earthing terminal of the installation in the caravan, as called for in Regulation 721.411.3.1.2. All that will be required, in many cases, will be a ‘main’ bond on to the vehicle chassis.

Regulation 721.43.1 calls for each final circuit to be protected by an overcurrent pro- tective device which disconnects all live (line and neutral) conductors (see Figure 16.10). This will of necessity involve the use of single-pole-and-neutral (SP&N) or double-pole (DP) circuit-breakers. DP devices will detect overcurrent in both line and neutral and interrupt both on operation, whereas SP&N devices detect only overcurrent in one pole (line) but will disconnect both poles on operation.

Where more than one electrically independent installation is present, each will require its own independent inlet plug, as indicated in Regulation 721.510.3.

Any part of the caravan installation operating at extra-low voltage must comply with the requirements of Section 414 (SELV and PELV) and for d.c. be at one of the standard voltages (12, 24 or 48 V). For a.c., permissible standard voltages are 12, 24, 42 and 48 V.

Which regulation says it's permissible to install a 230v socket (other than a shaver point) in a bathroom ?
Many converters do !!!

I doubt if any motorhome toilet/shower rooms are bigger than a domestic zone 1.

 

[scotjimland]

Which regulation says it's permissible to install a 230v socket (other than a shaver point) in a bathroom ?
Many converters do !!!

sorry, I don't recall saying it was permissible to fit a 240v socket in bathroom .. to what post do you refer John ?

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[Minxy]

sorry, I don't recall saying it was permissible to fit a 240v socket in bathroom .. to what post do you refer John ?

I think he's saying that despite the supposed regulations converters DO fit mains sockets in MH washrooms, not that you were saying it was okay.

 

[hilldweller]

I've never come across electronics fed directly with 240vac.

Oh yes you have.

All mains LED lamps use a capacitive dropper sometimes in very "iffy" ways. Other common ones are some USB chargers. As good old fellow Scott Clive reveals some of the USB ones can be lethal.

Back in The Old Days, cheap valve radios were run direct off mains with a resistance wire in the mains lead to derive a low voltage for the heaters.

Washing machines/dish washers are run direct off mains.

 

[scotjimland]

I think he's saying that despite the supposed regulations converters DO fit mains sockets in MH washrooms, not that you were saying it was okay.

I have no information on what UK convertors fit or don't fit in bathrooms .. as I said before John posted ..

never had a UK van..

They should comply with the 17th Edition IEE Regulation, 6.13 Electrical installations in caravans and motor caravans

do they fit 240v sockets ?

 

[scotjimland]

Oh yes you have.

oh no I haven't

 

[hilldweller]

sorry, I don't recall saying it was permissible to fit a 240v socket in bathroom .

Yes but I do recall one of our Spain resident members once saying that in Spain they must have a socket in the bathroom. In fact in the place we stayed in Benidorm this year I could stick my fingers in the socket in the bathroom whilst holding the tap. I chose not to do so nor use the hair dryer hard wired into the same block, said hair dryer might have even reached to the shower so had I had hair I could have dried it whilst washing the lower bits.

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[Minxy]

... said hair dryer might have even reached to the show so had I had hair I could have dried it whilst washing the lower bits.

... you could have dried them too ....

 

[scotjimland]

the place we stayed in Benidorm this year I could stick my fingers in the socket in the bathroom whilst holding the tap.

Benidorm you say.. I think I would have been tempted to do it

 

[hilldweller]

Benidorm you say.. I think I would have been tempted to do it

Benidorm, the world epicentre of culture and sophistication.

 

[Lenny HB]

Yes but I do recall one of our Spain resident members once saying that in Spain they must have a socket in the bathroom. In fact in the place we stayed in Benidorm this year I could stick my fingers in the socket in the bathroom whilst holding the tap. I chose not to do so nor use the hair dryer hard wired into the same block, said hair dryer might have even reached to the shower so had I had hair I could have dried it whilst washing the lower bits.

Surely its the same in your van you could do it in every van we have had, both in the washroom & kitchen.

 

[hilldweller]

Surely its the same in your van you could do it in every van we have had, both in the washroom & kitchen.

The Burstner had a 240V UK socket right above the bathroom wash basin and so could be touched by the shower though I have no idea if any current would have flowed.

The Swift has the light switch in the bathroom so I assume that is covered by the extra low voltage regs.

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[autorouter]

If a double-pole RCD is present you'll be protected, irrespective of wrongly-placed switches.

Yes, you can use a double-pole RCD, double pole MCBs and even double pole switches. That's in fact what the regs say you're supposed to do. That will protect you properly.

But the UK is still the only place on the planet that has a fuse in the appliance plug. That's a built-in single-pole protection device that you can't get away from.

 

[ukbill]

What's wrong with benidorm,I'd rather be here than good ol',cold damp, miserable UK,

 

[pappajohn]

sorry, I don't recall saying it was permissible to fit a 240v socket in bathroom .. to what post do you refer John ?

What I'm getting at is Jim, the regs only seem to apply when it suits.
You know yourself 230v sockets are not permitted in a bathroom area.....even a socket in a kitchen has to be a minimum distance from a sink, yet converters still fit them.

 

[gus-lopez]

Yes but I do recall one of our Spain resident members once saying that in Spain they must have a socket in the bathroom.

 

[bigtwin]

I found out that the erberspacher combitronic control unit that i installed in my self build will not allow heating or hot water to work on electric if the polarity is reversed... so it is possible with some electronics that it can matter..
I checked with the manufacturer when i got home and they confirmed that the unit had to see posotive on the correct pin to know mains was available... which obviously doesnt happen if the polarity is reversed..
Andy.

That is interesting and would be a good reason for ensuring that the L/N is not reversed.

However, as has been discussed many times before, for most people (I guess those without your particular heater) it matters not a jot which way round the connections are.

Ian

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[andy63]

That is interesting and would be a good reason for ensuring that the L/N is not reversed.

However, as has been discussed many times before, for most people (I guess those without your particular heater) it matters not a jot which way round the connections are.

Ian

Very true in terms of things working... and as long as people understand the implications of things still been live when they might expect them not to be..
Ive never come across anyone with the combitronic control module that i have but it definately has to see the correct pin as the live..
Andy

 

[Richard n Ann]

I wonder if an Erbespacher heater would pass a 500v insulation test? The difference between Live and Neutral is none existant without referencing Earth

I wired a cold room neon indicator lamp to earth once and it failed the insulation test.

 

[bigtwin]

Very true in terms of things working... and as long as people understand the implications of things still been live when they might expect them not to be..
Andy

Indeed, but one would rather hope that those that don’t understand why (for every day normal use) it doesn’t matter (and hence don’t need to carry “crossover leads”) wouldn’t go poking around behind covers!

Then again .........

Ian

 

[andy63]

I wonder if an Erbespacher heater would pass a 500v insulation test? The difference between Live and Neutral is none existant without referencing Earth

I wired a cold room neon indicator lamp to earth once and it failed the insulation test.

I have an megga that does 500v or 1000v insulation tests but never thought to check that.. could i damage the control box electronics if i tried it... ??
Andy..

 

[Richard n Ann]

I have an megga that does 500v or 1000v insulation tests but never thought to check that.. could i damage the control box electronics if i tried it... ??
Andy..

Shouldn't damage anything, there should be no current flow. Use a multimeter first set to the highest resistance setting, test between L&E and N&E
Use the 500v setting if you want to megger it, don't think I would without good reason.

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[bigtwin]

I have an megga that does 500v or 1000v insulation tests but never thought to check that.. could i damage the control box electronics if i tried it... ??
Andy..

Shouldn't damage anything, there should be no current flow. Use a multimeter first set to the highest resistance setting, test between L&E and N&E
Use the 500v setting if you want to megger it, don't think I would without good reason.

Have I got that right (rhetorical!); instructions are being provided on how to ‘megger’ it with a statement indicating that I wouldn’t do it!

 

[Richard n Ann]

Have I got that right (rhetorical!); instructions are being provided on how to ‘megger’ it with a statement indicating that I wouldn’t do it!

Yes. I would be hesitant at high voltage testing in this particular case because as I said in my earlier post, for a thing to know the difference between L&N it must reference Earth. Anything that references earth must have a connection to it, and that is an earth leakage

 

[MyrtleGuru]

Its a while since I had a UK built MH - do they still have switched mains sockets? I seem to recall our Autocruise Accent 2015 PVC didn't.

On our 2014 UK MH the mains sockets are unswitched. Been on a few Portuguese campsites where the campsite employee plugs in your two-pin plug to the post then locks the box (to stop people taking power without paying) so it's pot luck re polarity, unless you check as they are doing it and ask them to reverse it -- did that once and his facial expression was a mixture of incredulity and pity! He was probably right: on our van at least it probably matters not one jot.

 

[Kim H]

Hi Dave, this is not something we've ever concerned ourselves with so can't really help you I'm afraid, however I think @Lenny HB's explanation sounds plausible.

I susspect your sockets are crossed because the loom was already in place when they fitted the UK sockets if they had wired them with live to the live connection the sockets would have probably been upside down.

As you know, we bought the van from Edgehill and they had imported it. Maybe when they fitted the UK sockets, they did exactly as described above. You could always try asking Lee Broadhurst via HOG's.

 

[2657]

In our Globecar the UK socket near the sink/worktop is upside down and this is very useful as the cable does not then have to loop to reach the kettle, toaster etc.
No idea whether this has anything to do with polarity.....L&N connectivity for the fastidious

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