Driving Licence Entitlement

[justme AKA Grath]

Thanks

Hi Graham

Yes here is a Link Removed

Hi George.
Thanks for info:thumb:

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Mark

therein lies the problem, all the background legislation says goods vehicles MAM quite specifically and if all vehicles MAM must not exceed that, how do you explain minibuses of 16 tonnes on a car licence? Marsham quite specifically state that motorhomes are not weight restricted and are NOT goods vehicles and according to the legisaltion C&U Marcham are the only Arbiters of vehicle classification.

Also I would think the CPS would have been able to show me a law to prosecute motorhomers over 7.5 Tonnes if such a law were available (and they should know)

 

[Baldrick]

Hi George,

The way I see it is that all vehicles constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers come within the category 'D' entitlement, which has nothing to do with weights, purely seating capacity.

So, a motorhome is neither a goods vehicle nor a passenger carrying vehicle, we have established that much, what we have left is a motor vehicle, which for driving licence purposes is defined by MAM.

The driving licence categories are determined:

1. By weight Cat B and C
2. By seating Capacity Cat D

This is apart from motorcycles and specialist vehicles.

I know I have broken my promise, but I do like a good debate!!

 

[Tony Santara]

John (RR)
keep on posting mate don't let any one put you off
I've missed your posts :thumb::thumb:

 

[moandick]

And that is exactly the reason why a properly licensed PCV coach driver is NOT entitled to drive an RV of over 7½ tons - he is in the wrong category.

A person who can take the lives of 50 or more passengers into his/her hands and drive them all over the Continent or wherever yet is not capable of driving an empty RV - even though it may be the same chassis, suspension, brakes etc., etc., etc as the coach!

Now that is a totally, utterly, ridiculous situation and is precisely the reason that this whole sorry mess needs to be cleared up once and for all.

Dick

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[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Baldrick, Moandick

from the DVLA

"You may be allowed to drive a minibus without bus entitlement, if it is not used for hire or reward. Hire or reward generally means any payment in cash or kind made by or on behalf of passengers which gives them right to be carried in a vehicle.

If you had entitlement to drive cars prior to 1 January 1997 you can drive a minibus provided you are 21 or over and the minibus has a maximum of 17 seats including the driver's seat and is not being used for hire or reward"

and seeing as a minibus can be any weight.....................

Now if there was a law against driving a motorhome (Large RV) on a car licence you would think that the CPS would be able to quote it, I have asked the CPS and they cannot show any law that precludes a driver with a basic car licence from driving an RV

Winnie, you have mail, I will not bring a previous forum problem here on open forum.

 

[sammclouis]

Hi Baldrick, Moandick

from the DVLA

"You may be allowed to drive a minibus without bus entitlement, if it is not used for hire or reward. Hire or reward generally means any payment in cash or kind made by or on behalf of passengers which gives them right to be carried in a vehicle.

If you had entitlement to drive cars prior to 1 January 1997 you can drive a minibus provided you are 21 or over and the minibus has a maximum of 17 seats including the driver's seat and is not being used for hire or reward"

and seeing as a minibus can be any weight.....................

Now if there was a law against driving a motorhome (Large RV) on a car licence you would think that the CPS would be able to quote it, I have asked the CPS and they cannot show any law that precludes a driver with a basic car licence from driving an RV

Winnie, you have mail, I will not bring a previous forum problem here on open forum.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_4022619
see here but you cannot drive a minibus over the weight of 3.5 tonnes or 4.25 tonnes including any specialist equipment for the carriage of disabled passengers

 

[GeorgeTelford]

but you cannot drive a minibus over the weight of 3.5 tonnes or 4.25 tonnes including any specialist equipment for the carriage of disabled passengers

Hi Sam

Thats on the post 97 Licences were they are trying to sneak these weight limits in.

"Driving licence held before 1 January 1997
If you had entitlement to drive cars prior to 1 January 1997 you can drive a minibus provided you are 21 or over and the minibus has a maximum of 17 seats including the driver's seat and is not being used for hire or reward.

To drive a minibus which has nine or more passenger seats for hire or reward you will normally need passenger carrying vehicle entitlement (PCV). To obtain this you must meet higher medical standards and take a further driving test. However, if you drive a minibus for an organisation under the minibus or community bus permit scheme you will not need to have the higher PCV entitlements."

This is where they quietly snuck in the weight limit for minibuses, check with Marsham


note the disclaimer "Categories of vehicles and their descriptions can be found on the link below.
DVLA cannot give legal advice on how vehicles are classified but, generally speaking it depends on the weight of the vehicle or the number of passengers it can carry."

The classification is down to Marsham and I have already confirmed this point with Marsham a minibus is a minibus no matter what the weight (they have taken the right away to people passing test post 97) but crucially they have not moved motorhomes, it wont be long until they do.


By the way I do think everyone should take the higher category test, My only point is that you are not obliged to under current law.

 

[sammclouis]

Hi Baldrick, Moandick

from the DVLA

If you had entitlement to drive cars prior to 1 January 1997 you can drive a minibus provided you are 21 or over and the minibus has a maximum of 17 seats including the driver's seat and is not being used for hire or reward"

and seeing as a minibus can be any weight.....................

you quoted pre 1997 and i was aware that is it pre 1997 as i have just been on a midas course...(minibus driving course) with work...i have held my pcv(D) and hgv1 (C1E) since the age 22..& i need minibus training!!

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Sam

Yep the law is a complete ass on this, My mum can drive a coach full of school kids, but not a smaller hgv carrying cabbages go figure (I never claimed it ever made sense....)

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[sammclouis]

Hi Sam

Yep the law is a complete ass on this, My mum can drive a coach full of school kids, but not a smaller hgv carrying cabbages go figure (I never claimed it ever made sense....)

agreed mate.............strange world we live in.....:thumb:

 

[Baldrick]

So George, why does a motorhome not come into the category 'Any Motor Vehicle'?

Mark

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Mark

“heavy motor car” means a mechanically propelled vehicle, not being a motor car, which is constructed itself to carry a load or passengers and the weight of which unladen exceeds 2540 kilograms"

Hmm that sounds like a classification that a motorhome fits into (certainly a better fit than Goods vehicle) and according to DVLA heavy motor car is B licence only, the only problem being that DVLA keep trying to make a motorhome a goods vehicle or say its weight only and yet they cannot show the law to back this up.

Definition of “heavy commercial vehicle” for the purposes of section 19 (1) In section 19 of this Act, “heavy commercial vehicle” means any goods vehicle which has an operating weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes.
(2) The operating weight of a goods vehicle for the purposes of this section is—
(a) in the case of a motor vehicle not drawing a trailer or in the case of a trailer, its maximum laden weight,
(b) in the case of an articulated vehicle, its maximum laden weight (if it has one) and otherwise the aggregate maximum laden weight of all the individual vehicles forming part of that articulated vehicle, and
(c) in the case of a motor vehicle (other than an articulated vehicle) drawing one or more trailers, the aggregate maximum laden weight of the motor vehicle and the trailer or trailers attached to it.
(3) In this section “articulated vehicle” means a motor vehicle with a trailer so attached to it as to be partially superimposed upon it; and references to the maximum laden weight of a vehicle are references to the total laden weight which must not be exceeded in the case of that vehicle if it is to be used in Great Britain without contravening any regulations for the time being in force under section 41 of this Act.
(4) In this section, and in the definition of “goods vehicle” in section 192 of this Act as it applies for the purposes of this section, “trailer” means any vehicle other than a motor vehicle.

The Secretary of State may, as respects goods vehicles, make regulations under this section—
(a) prescribing other descriptions of weight which are not to be exceeded in the case of such vehicles,
(b) providing for the marking on such vehicles of weights of any description or other particulars by means of plates (of any material) fixed to them,
(c) providing for the circumstances in which any particulars which are to be marked on such vehicles are to be so marked,
(d) providing that weights of any description or other particulars which are to be marked on particular goods vehicles may be determined in accordance with regulations under section 49 of this Act.


Does that sound like a motorhome?


Note Part IV does it mention only MAM? no it mentions HGV

"Drivers of heavy goods vehicles to be licensed (1) It is an offence for a person to drive a heavy goods vehicle of any class on a road if he is not licensed under this Part of this Act to drive a heavy goods vehicle of that class.
(2) It is an offence for a person to cause or permit another person to drive a heavy goods vehicle of any class on a road if that other person is not so licensed to drive a heavy goods vehicle of that class.
(3) Nothing in subsection (1) or (2) above makes it unlawful—
(a) for a person who is not so licensed to act, or
(b) for a person to cause or permit such a person to act,
as steersman of a heavy goods vehicle (being a vehicle on which a speed limit of five miles per hour or less is imposed by or under section 86 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984) [1984 c. 27.] under the orders of another person engaged in the driving of the vehicle who is licensed in that behalf in accordance with the requirements of Part III of this Act and this section.
(4) Neither subsection (1) nor subsection (2) above applies to the driving of, or the causing or permitting of a person to drive, a vehicle in any case where—
(a) the excise duty in respect of the vehicle under the [1971 c. 10.] Vehicles (Excise) Act 1971 is chargeable at the rate applicable to vehicles specified in paragraph 2(1) of Schedule 3 to that Act, and
(b) the vehicle is being driven for one of the purposes for which it must solely be used if the duty is to remain chargeable at that rate.

this means driven as HGV ie not only must it be of the size and taxation class it must also be quacking like a duck ie actually being used as a Goods Vehicle...

Does a motorhome quack like a duck? I think not

The very act you posted shows that a motorhome is not a goods vehicle and therefore does not need a licence above B not matter what the weight

 

[Baldrick]

Hi Mark

“
Definition of “heavy commercial vehicle” for the purposes of section 19 (1) In section 19 of this Act, “heavy commercial vehicle” means any goods vehicle which has an operating weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes.
(2) The operating weight of a goods vehicle for the purposes of this section is—
(a) in the case of a motor vehicle not drawing a trailer or in the case of a trailer, its maximum laden weight,
(b) in the case of an articulated vehicle, its maximum laden weight (if it has one) and otherwise the aggregate maximum laden weight of all the individual vehicles forming part of that articulated vehicle, and
(c) in the case of a motor vehicle (other than an articulated vehicle) drawing one or more trailers, the aggregate maximum laden weight of the motor vehicle and the trailer or trailers attached to it.
(3) In this section “articulated vehicle” means a motor vehicle with a trailer so attached to it as to be partially superimposed upon it; and references to the maximum laden weight of a vehicle are references to the total laden weight which must not be exceeded in the case of that vehicle if it is to be used in Great Britain without contravening any regulations for the time being in force under section 41 of this Act.
(4) In this section, and in the definition of “goods vehicle” in section 192 of this Act as it applies for the purposes of this section, “trailer” means any vehicle other than a motor vehicle.

This definition only applies to S.19 The prohibition of HGV's parking on verges, central reservations and footpaths.

The Secretary of State may, as respects goods vehicles, make regulations under this section—
(a) prescribing other descriptions of weight which are not to be exceeded in the case of such vehicles,
(b) providing for the marking on such vehicles of weights of any description or other particulars by means of plates (of any material) fixed to them,
(c) providing for the circumstances in which any particulars which are to be marked on such vehicles are to be so marked,
(d) providing that weights of any description or other particulars which are to be marked on particular goods vehicles may be determined in accordance with regulations under section 49 of this Act.

This section only applies to the marking of weights ie manufacturers plate or ministry plate.

Does that sound like a motorhome?


Note Part IV does it mention only MAM? no it mentions HGV

"Drivers of heavy goods vehicles to be licensed (1) It is an offence for a person to drive a heavy goods vehicle of any class on a road if he is not licensed under this Part of this Act to drive a heavy goods vehicle of that class.
(2) It is an offence for a person to cause or permit another person to drive a heavy goods vehicle of any class on a road if that other person is not so licensed to drive a heavy goods vehicle of that class.
(3) Nothing in subsection (1) or (2) above makes it unlawful—
(a) for a person who is not so licensed to act, or
(b) for a person to cause or permit such a person to act,
as steersman of a heavy goods vehicle (being a vehicle on which a speed limit of five miles per hour or less is imposed by or under section 86 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984) [1984 c. 27.] under the orders of another person engaged in the driving of the vehicle who is licensed in that behalf in accordance with the requirements of Part III of this Act and this section.
(4) Neither subsection (1) nor subsection (2) above applies to the driving of, or the causing or permitting of a person to drive, a vehicle in any case where—
(a) the excise duty in respect of the vehicle under the [1971 c. 10.] Vehicles (Excise) Act 1971 is chargeable at the rate applicable to vehicles specified in paragraph 2(1) of Schedule 3 to that Act, and
(b) the vehicle is being driven for one of the purposes for which it must solely be used if the duty is to remain chargeable at that rate.

This section only states that drivers of HGV's must be licenced

this means driven as HGV ie not only must it be of the size and taxation class it must also be quacking like a duck ie actually being used as a Goods Vehicle...

Does a motorhome quack like a duck? I think not

The very act you posted shows that a motorhome is not a goods vehicle and therefore does not need a licence above B not matter what the weight

I will repeat ' I agree that a motorhome is not a HGV, nor is it a PSV. For the purpose of the driving licence regs it is merely a motor vehicle.'

Mark

 

[Baldrick]

George, Where in these categories does it mention HGV?

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19962824_en_10.htm#nsch2ubcategorievehiclelicensingpurpose

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[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Baldrick

Go to section 5 Here

scroll down to licence categories in the first table roughly half way down the page

Note the word's which keeps cropping up on the C and C + E table the word is goods vehicle.

Now go back to the C1+E section which only covers 7.5 tonnes + trailer for total 8.25 Tonnes

If you correlate the 2 sections It isnt a goods vehicle so C licence no good and according to you a B licence is no good and a C1 only covers up to 7.5 tonnes, what are you left with? according to what you are putting forward no-one can be licenced correctly for a motorhome over 7.5 tonnes..

this being the case which licence do you feel covers a motorhome over 7.5 tonnes?

 

[Baldrick]

Hi Baldrick

Go to section 5 Here

scroll down to licence categories in the first table roughly half way down the page

Note the word's which keeps cropping up on the C and C + E table the word is goods vehicle.

Now go back to the C1+E section which only covers 7.5 tonnes + trailer for total 8.25 Tonnes

If you correlate the 2 sections It isnt a goods vehicle so C licence no good and according to you a B licence is no good and a C1 only covers up to 7.5 tonnes, what are you left with? according to what you are putting forward no-one can be licenced correctly for a motorhome over 7.5 tonnes..

this being the case which licence do you feel covers a motorhome over 7.5 tonnes?

George

Like I have been saying all along, a motorhome is a motor vehicle, a goods vehicle is a motor vehicle, a pcv is a motor vehicle (Motor vehicle definition: a mechanically propelled vehicle constructed or adapted for use on a road). The category of driving licence as shown in Sch.II MV(DL)Regs 1996 is determined only by the mam, unless its a pcv.

I will post no more on this subject, but if I am ever persuaded to change my view you will be the first to know.

Mark

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Mark

I agree that a motorhome is a motor vehicle, but its category is important the legislation link you posted clearly indicates that C is goods vehicle category. The same pce of legislation also clearly states that in matters involving categorising a vehicle is the sole domain fo C&U Marsham

Construction and Use Marsham say that a Motorhome is NOT a goods vehicle therefore a C licence would not entitle you to drive a Motorhome over 7.5 Tonnes.

A C1 licence is no good as that is 7.5 tonnes max

Interpretation sec 120

Interpretation In this Part of this Act—
“full licence” means a heavy goods vehicle driver’s licence other than a provisional licence,
“heavy goods vehicle” means—
(a) an articulated goods vehicle, or
(b) a large goods vehicle, that is to say, a motor vehicle (not being an articulated goods vehicle) which is constructed or adapted to carry or to haul goods and the permissible maximum weight of which exceeds 7.5 tonnes


Clearly a motorhome does not fit into the C or C1 categories on a licence

The C category on a Licence is clearly only for goods vehicles over 7.5 tonnes.

Under those circumstances either no-one is legal to drive a motorhome over 7.5 tonnes or everyone is by virtue of passing a B licence (this being the only section under which a motorhome can legally fall, “heavy motor car” means a mechanically propelled vehicle, not being a motor car, which is constructed itself to carry a load or passengers and the weight of which unladen exceeds 2540 kilograms" fits a motorhome to a "T"

 

[Baldrick]

What do people think of this then?

http://www.betterregulation.gov.uk/idea/details.cfm?proposalid=08c0366fbe2a4f14a3b898b5c927d8a8

And the interpretations contained in Article III of the adopted regulations?

Link Removed

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Mark

On the first one, is a poorly thought out idea, that as been put forward to the Better reg dept and it as been explained officially why its a non starter.

The second link? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, original euro version that we should be following.

Have you decided on a licence category that you feel would fit a motorhome over 7.5 tonnes?

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[Baldrick]

Hi George,

I take it that you agree that a motorhome between 3501kg and 7500kg requires a cat C1 entitlement?

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Mark

Not always, only post 97 Licences and then only if you had to take a test after 97 otherwise it was a free giveaway with a B licence

BTW I know where you are going with this, DVLA tried this same line of reasoning and it comes unstuck.

You either end up with everyone is licenced by passing B test or no-one is if the only category is C (because under UK law thats defined as goods vehicle)


Catch 22

 

[Baldrick]

Hi George,

So by your reasoning ie definition of goods vehicle = cat C in uk law which precludes motorhomes above 7500kg, why then do you accept that a motorhome between 3501kg and 7500kg (a medium goods vehicle under uk law) requires a cat C1?

I am at a loss to understand your reasoning. You seem to be using all types of definitions: C&U, parking of HGV's on verges, plating and testing regs etc, none of which have any bearing on the interpretation as shown in community driving licence licences regs adopted by the UK.

The applicable regulations only state motor vehicles.

By the way a motorhome above 7500kg requires a cat 'C' licence.

Mark

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Mark

No by my reasoning (and the UK law as written and by the links you posted to that law) you only need a B licence.

Its the DVLA that are trying to say that Motorhomes fit the Goods vehicle and this new mish mash commercial vehicle categories, unfortunately Construction and Use Marsham say a Motorhome is not a goods vehicle.

A cat C licence, hmm the very legislation that you posted says that thats for Goods vehicle's and a motorhome is not a goods vehicle.

Ring and ask C&U Marsham they will confirm a motorhome is NOT a goods vehicle.

VOSA will also confirm its not a goods vehicle, therefore a cat C licence is not applicable.

Also goods vehicles require special testing, plating, speed restriction and a Tachograph, while you are speaking to VOSA ask if a motorhome is on the list of exempted vehicles. if it isnt and its a goods vehicle then all motorhomes over 7.5 Tonnes are ilegal, unless of course they are heavy motor cars covered under B licence

 

[Baldrick]

Hi Mark

No by my reasoning (and the UK law as written and by the links you posted to that law) you only need a B licence.

B licence only goes up to 3500kg

Its the DVLA that are trying to say that Motorhomes fit the Goods vehicle and this new mish mash commercial vehicle categories, unfortunately Construction and Use Marsham say a Motorhome is not a goods vehicle.

C&U is not applicable for the regulations

A cat C licence, hmm the very legislation that you posted says that thats for Goods vehicle's and a motorhome is not a goods vehicle.

Ring and ask C&U Marsham they will confirm a motorhome is NOT a goods vehicle.

Agreed (worked for Marsham Street for 6 years

VOSA will also confirm its not a goods vehicle, (agreed) therefore a cat C licence is not applicable. (disagree)



Also goods vehicles require special testing, plating, speed restriction and a Tachograph, while you are speaking to VOSA ask if a motorhome is on the list of exempted vehicles. if it isnt and its a goods vehicle then all motorhomes over 7.5 Tonnes are ilegal,(Agreed worked for VOSA for 7 years) unless of course they are heavy motor cars covered under B licence

I will ask the question again, why do you accept C1 for motorhomes between 3501kg and 7500kg (which are medium sized goods vehicles in UK law), but you cannot accept C for motorhomes above this threshold, after all C1 is a sub category of C?

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[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Mark

My Mistake, I do not accept that at all, I thought you were trying the same tack DVLA did and didnt realise the trap you were trying to set. I will never agree that a motorhome is a goods vehicle (unless it actually is, be that actual Goods Vehicle or living van)

If you know its not a goods vehicle, thats most of the battle won, why do you then claim a goods vehicle licence is required?

The legislation you posted clearly shows C Cat licences are for goods vehicles.

Interpretation sec 120

Interpretation In this Part of this Act—
“full licence” means a heavy goods vehicle driver’s licence other than a provisional licence,
“heavy goods vehicle” means—
(a) an articulated goods vehicle, or
(b) a large goods vehicle, that is to say, a motor vehicle (not being an articulated goods vehicle) which is constructed or adapted to carry or to haul goods and the permissible maximum weight of which exceeds 7.5 tonnes


George

 

[Baldrick]

George,

So now you have changed your mind about the C1 requirement, thats a pity because in my previous post (better regs link), the outcome of the question regarding C1 was only arrived at after discussion with policy officials, now from my days with the DTp that is a reference to Marsham Street, the very officials you have been relying on for the definition of a goods vehicle. Clearly their decision does not suit you on this occasion.

I will always agree that a motorhome is not a goods vehicle, and if you care to read the driving licence regs properly you will see for yourself that the categories do not refer to goods vehicles in any way, shape or form. Do not rely on definitions contained in domestic regulations, they just don't apply.

Bye

Mark

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Mark

No not changed my mind, I never meant to agree to that, it was simply that I thought you were trying something else.

So at the end of all this you agree with me that UK law says it and yet now you say that UK Law doesnt apply ?

You will find that it does apply until its changed, ask the Crown Prosecution Service.

 

[Baldrick]

Goods vehicles are not a category in the applicable regs.

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Mark

From the legislation which you posted, Go to section 5 here
scroll down to licence categories in the first table roughly half way down the page

Note the word's which keeps cropping up on the C and C + E table the word is goods vehicle.

Given that you agree that a motorhome is not a goods vehicle and that the applicable regs which you posted say that a C licence is for goods vehicles.......

I think thats about it

Last one out switch off the lights....

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