DRAYTON wiser wireless heating controller, fitting?

[Odd-no-more]

There is the difference you have a log burner. Not practical for us due to the layout of the house.

I also installed, or had installed, an inverter (air-con) they're 400% efficient on heating and 600% efficient on cooling. We use that to heat the bungalow in the daytime with a boost to the kitchen from the boiler at lunchtime. Part of the reason for buying the inverter is with a south facing conservatory it gets too hot in summer, but I hope it's saving us money on the heating as well.

 

[funflair]

Using the yellow earth cable as the switched live is a bad solution to both the original TP5000 and your proposal for the new thermostat. You need a neutral, permanent live feed, switched live return and an earth cable so it looks like you're a wire short at the existing back box.
Edit: just seen the blue wire so presumably old 3 core & earth wiring and there is a 4th earth wire terminated somewhere in the back box so you have enough wires..

Thanks for your reply, yes cable is actually a piece of old 3 core + earth or even 3 phase I think so the yellow is a phase/conductor colour rather than earth and yes you are right there will be/is an earth hiding in there but not connected at either end and no place to connect on the old or new installation (back boxes are plastic and no earth connection), I guess the possibility of confusing yellow with earth is why it goes into a junction box before entering the boiler wiring. So thinking about it I have the cable from the boiler connections Ls (brown) and LR (blue) which goes away to the junction box but it is 3 core, I need another wire for Neutral Ns connection from the boiler but the spare in that cable will be earth colour coded I could colour code it to differentiate it from the Neutral that is used as the switched return LR.

 

[Odd-no-more]

could colour code it to differentiate it from the Neutral that is used as the switched return LR.

Any 240v cable should have an earth even if it's not needed for a double insulated appliance, the earth protects the cable if it's damaged by tripping the RVD. A wireless controll would normally have a 4 core cable live ,neutral, earth and switched live as a minimum ideally it would have 5 core cable as some boilers have low voltage controls.

 

[funflair]

I also installed, or had installed, an inverter (air-con) they're 400% efficient on heating and 600% efficient on cooling. We use that to heat the bungalow in the daytime with a boost to the kitchen from the boiler at lunchtime. Part of the reason for buying the inverter is with a south facing conservatory it gets too hot in summer, but I hope it's saving us money on the heating as well.

That is something I was thinking about in our conservatory as it is the main room that we use all day until it is dark basically so longer in the summer than winter, as it goes right across the back of the house it would put in a fair bit of background heat/cool, and no I won't be coming back asking how to fit it, I do have my limits

 

[Lenny HB]

piece of old 3 core + earth or even 3 phase

Sounds like 4 way cable for lighting circuit where you have two way switching as on the stairs.
Or if the outer is heat proof silicon, cable for a motorised valve on the heating circuit.

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[funflair]

Sounds like 4 way cable for lighting circuit where you have two way switching as on the stairs.
Or if the outer is heat proof silicon, cable for a motorised valve on the heating circuit.

Not Silicon and flat + earth so possibly 2 way lighting,

The cable from the original programmer is coming in the top, earth and blue snipped but both still available but not connected at the programmer end as Danfoss specifically say that both Earth and Neutral should not be connected, the flex out the bottom is to/from the boiler the earth is connected in this box BUT not at the boiler end and if it was it would be to the Neutral Ns for the programmer (this would need marking up as Neutral feed to new programmer hub), all professionally installed BTW not any of my bodging

 

[Pausim]

We have underfloor heating and TRVs are not an option. However there are 8 separate sectors which have flow adjusters which are adjusted to keep the lounge diner a bit warmer than bedrooms and kitchen. Where the Hive has helped immensely is understanding the time lag between the boiler firing up and the rooms feeling warm and the time the temperatures continues to rise after the boiler shuts off. The Hive system builds up daily graphs showing temperatures and boiler activity and no doubt the Drayton system has similar features.

Where the system is saving me money is the graphs not only help me to understand the heating time lag but the big difference a sunny day makes. We have large areas of single glazed south facing windows and even at this time of year a sunny day provides a lot of heating. Where I was wasting money (lots) was by heating the rooms too early in the day. When the sun came out the floor was still warm and the temperature would quickly rise above the needed level. By pegging the temperature back a bit until mid morning we often find the sun saves a couple of hours of boiler burn time. Only on cloudy days does the boiler cut in mid morning to maintain a comfortable level of heating. At the other end of the day the graph showed that we needed to close the curtains and blinds earlier to reduce the heat loss after the sun had gone down.

I have no doubt that the clever heating control (Hive or Drayton) has paid for itself in less than 1 year.

 

[funflair]

Any 240v cable should have an earth even if it's not needed for a double insulated appliance, the earth protects the cable if it's damaged by tripping the RVD. A wireless controll would normally have a 4 core cable live ,neutral, earth and switched live as a minimum ideally it would have 5 core cable as some boilers have low voltage controls.

It is wired as per Worcester Bosch instructions, we have the L and S connected and I need the N for the new install but there is no Earth provision to the programmer/stat in their wiring. The obvious earth is the incoming boiler power.

 

[Lenny HB]

all professionally installed BTW not any of my bodging

That why I always do my own electrics & gas.

 

[Odd-no-more]

It is wired as per Worcester Bosch instructions, we have the L and S connected and I need the N for the new install but there is no Earth provision to the programmer/stat in their wiring. The obvious earth is the incoming boiler power.

View attachment 694207

The earth is not required for the operation but it's a safety feature, if the cable is damaged a short to earth would take out the RVD. Like many safety features the system can work for years without it being a problem bit then when it goes wrong it may save a problem. I look at it as the same as a seatbelt in a car, I have used a seatbelt on every trip since it became compulsory, I have never needed it but I still use it because one day it may save my life.

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[funflair]

Interesting approach - I went the other way with semi smart bluetooth control TRVs that cost about £30 each in most rooms and the main control still run by a programmable Danfoss thermostat.

The TRVs (Equiva EQ3) don't need a hub, just an app on your phone. I have them set so that the bedrooms are a few degrees cooler during the day, but warm morning and evening. The kitchen is warm in the morning and from 5pm to 7pm but cooler at other times and so on based on how we tend to use the house. I worked out they only needed to save me about 10% on my gas bill to pay back the cost in 1 year.

The radiator in the hall has no TRV as the main thermostat is in the hall and that couldn't react properly with a TRV on the nearest radiator.

The Danfoss main stat has a thing called 'chrono proportional control' which basically means that the heating runs every 20 minutes, maybe for 30 seconds, maybe for 2 minutes, maybe for 5, depending on how much heat is needed. It all seems to work out - if lots of TRVs are shut then the hall radiator will heat quickly and the bursts of heating every 20 minutes will become shorter. When more TRVs are open the opposite happens and the heating runs longer each time.

I guess one thing is that there is usually someone in the house, so having smart heating that turns off when everyone goes out has limited use for us, but having just the right rooms heated at the right time helps.

Someone else commented that they didn't like going into cold rooms. I set rooms for 17 in 'cool' periods and 20.5 in 'in use' periods, so things are never too cold.

Interesting thread with some useful info!

cheers,

Robin

Our system very similar to yours in that we have the single room stat in the hall and the radiator flow turned down so that area doesn't heat up too quickly and turn the system off, we then have Danfoss "dumb" TRV on most of the rads but we are heating the lounge and dining room all day when we don't use it till 5 or 6pm, I will have a look at the Equiva EQ3

 

[funflair]

I have a hive system, I've had the main thermostat for years, I used to install them when I was working, I have now put the hive trv's on all the radiators apart from the hall rad. The main thermostat is now almost redundant as each room is programmed individually. When any room requires heat the hall is also heated. The bedrooms are heated in the morning and then again from 9pm, so warm when in use but not wasting heat at other times. I also have alexa and I can tell "her" to put heat in any room when I need it. My office is in the conservatory and I only heat that when I need to get it there. Before I put the trv's in the heat in a lot of was wasted. I installed 8 hive thermostats at a cost of about £320 I'm hoping to save that amount of gas in a year, at the current price.

I have not got around to really thinking about how the smart system will work against what we have now as it was the separate time periods for the TRV that attracted me, I am assuming that it is a Hive stat that you have in the hall so we would have the same with Drayton and then again smart TRV 's on a lot but not all of the rads, in your system does the boiler switch off if the hall stat is up to temperature or would it keep running until all smart TRV's stopped calling for heat?

 

[Lenny HB]

I have not got around to really thinking about how the smart system will work against what we have now as it was the separate time periods for the TRV that attracted me, I am assuming that it is a Hive stat that you have in the hall so we would have the same with Drayton and then again smart TRV 's on a lot but not all of the rads, in your system does the boiler switch off if the hall stat is up to temperature or would it keep running until all smart TRV's stopped calling for heat?

Our room stat is in the hall and have to run the hall much cooler than we like to keep the system running, I think the hot air collects in the corner where the stat is & it's not practical to move it. So I think the Smart TRV's are going we were quite happy the way the system worked before.

 

[Odd-no-more]

I have not got around to really thinking about how the smart system will work against what we have now as it was the separate time periods for the TRV that attracted me, I am assuming that it is a Hive stat that you have in the hall so we would have the same with Drayton and then again smart TRV 's on a lot but not all of the rads, in your system does the boiler switch off if the hall stat is up to temperature or would it keep running until all smart TRV's stopped calling for heat?

Each trv can call for heat, when it does it puts the main thermostat on boost to 23deg for half an hour, if the trv is still calling for heat then it will do another half an hour. The 23deg temperature is adjustable so it can be set to work with any system. This only works well if all or at least most rads have smart control because everything without them will be on

 

[Lenny HB]

Each trv can call for heat, when it does it puts the main thermostat on boost to 23deg for half an hour, if the trv is still calling for heat then it will do another half an hour. The 23deg temperature is adjustable so it can be set to work with any system. This only works well if all or at least most rads have smart control because everything without them will be on

I take it that is with the Drayton system, I'm using a nest thermostat with Tado TRV's so don't get that function.
To fit a new Smart stat & Smart TVR's on all rads would cost about £800, I'll just pay for gas I think.

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[Bolti]

Take a look at this video it may help

 

[Pausim]

Our room stat is in the hall and have to run the hall much cooler than we like to keep the system running

When we moved in that is where our’s was and it was a bad position. The Hive thermostat can be moved around and we soon found the best position was in the lounge diner but away from windows and direct sunlight. Much better. Not sure why halls were chosen by most original installers.

 

[Odd-no-more]

I take it that is with the Drayton system, I'm using a nest thermostat with Tado TRV's so don't get that function.
To fit a new Smart stat & Smart TVR's on all rads would cost about £800, I'll just pay for gas I think.

My system is hive, I'm not familiar with the Drayton one but I assume it's similar

 

[Odd-no-more]

I take it that is with the Drayton system, I'm using a nest thermostat with Tado TRV's so don't get that function.
To fit a new Smart stat & Smart TVR's on all rads would cost about £800, I'll just pay for gas I think.

When I was working all this was very new we did get the odd enquiry for this but at the time the only system that would do it was the Honeywell one which is expensive. We quoted on a few but nobody went ahead, the quotes were around the £1,500 mark. At home I already had a hive thermostat and trv's on all the rads so I only had to buy the valve heads. Even so I wouldn't have done it if the price of gas hadn't gone up as it did. I think I will break even by the end of the winter, excluding the air-con which will take a bit longer.

 

[funflair]

Each trv can call for heat, when it does it puts the main thermostat on boost to 23deg for half an hour, if the trv is still calling for heat then it will do another half an hour. The 23deg temperature is adjustable so it can be set to work with any system. This only works well if all or at least most rads have smart control because everything without them will be on

Thanks that seems sensible and as I imagined it would work to be fair.

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[funflair]

Take a look at this video it may help

Thanks, that seems a lot more complicated than our system so if I study it too much I will be more confused than I am already, Drayton do have some videos that I might try to watch though.

 

[Lenny HB]

I've taken the Smart TRV's off and the house is warm again, good riddance.

 

[TG1903]

Easiest Way in my opinion presuming you have Wiser Kit 1
You need to position the Drayton Hub next to boiler use a Heat Resistant 4core cable from the boiler connection Ls &Ns to the Live & Neutral of the Hub back plate and from Lr on boiler connect to hub backplate to the switched Live connection (Nos 3) and put a Link Wire from Live to Nos3 , connect earth to boiler & backplate . This method will mean the Main on/off boiler power switch will control the Hub power
This is also presuming that the Hub position next boiler will have a reliable WI-FI connection
The current Danfoss Thermostat cables are not required
Hopefully this makes sense and I have understood your original question
PS I am a Plumbing & Heating engineer

 

[TG1903]

Easiest Way in my opinion presuming you have Wiser Kit 1
You need to position the Drayton Hub next to boiler use a Heat Resistant 4core cable from the boiler connection Ls &Ns to the Live & Neutral of the Hub back plate and from Lr on boiler connect to hub backplate to the switched Live connection (Nos 3) and put a Link Wire from Live to Nos3 , connect earth to boiler & backplate . This method will mean the Main on/off boiler power switch will control the Hub power
This is also presuming that the Hub position next boiler will have a reliable WI-FI connection
The current Danfoss Thermostat cables are not required
Hopefully this makes sense and I have understood your original question
PS I am a Plumbing & Heating engineer

Please note - The Link wire should be from Live to Com on the Hub backplate not Nos 3

 

[funflair]

Please note - The Link wire should be from Live to Com on the Hub backplate not Nos 3

Thanks for that I spotted the deliberate mistake, your guidance matches my thoughts so I am "good to go" thanks for your help

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[The Wino]

We have a hive system and I've just added a first smart trv in the bedroom. It means we can have heat in there in the morning and cool in the evening. I don't know if we will get anymore the spare bedrooms all have standard trv,s set low I think smart ones are worth it if you want different temperatures at different times of the day or days of the week otherwise standard seem enough. We are turning the heating off more this winter if were out we set a boost on the heating at a low temperature.

 

[Odd-no-more]

The set up I have seems to be working well, I think the most important thing is to work out which rooms you use and which time of day. We spend most time in the lounge at this time of year, so in the morning most radiators are on until 8.00 then off until 12.00 when the kitchen radiator comes on so we can get in there for lunch, then off again until 5.00 in the evening when it's coldest we have the heating on in the lounge and the inverter goes off, when the heating is on for any room the hall rad is on too so it's only the bedrooms that are off until 9.00. We have Alexa so can tell "her" to boost the heat on any room at any time outside the set period, in addition we have an inverter which heats the lounge when the heating is off and is mounted over the door so we get some heat from it in the rest of our fairly small bungalow as well. It's too early on in the winter to have an exact number but so far our energy use seems much lower than previous years.

 

[POH]

The set up I have seems to be working well, I think the most important thing is to work out which rooms you use and which time of day. We spend most time in the lounge at this time of year, so in the morning most radiators are on until 8.00 then off until 12.00 when the kitchen radiator comes on so we can get in there for lunch, then off again until 5.00 in the evening when it's coldest we have the heating on in the lounge and the inverter goes off, when the heating is on for any room the hall rad is on too so it's only the bedrooms that are off until 9.00. We have Alexa so can tell "her" to boost the heat on any room at any time outside the set period, in addition we have an inverter which heats the lounge when the heating is off and is mounted over the door so we get some heat from it in the rest of our fairly small bungalow as well. It's too early on in the winter to have an exact number but so far our energy use seems much lower than previous years.

Hi ExGasman, thinking of getting the Hive , but need some advice ie we don't have a thermostat just a timer and programmer and all the rads but one have TVRs, the boiler is a system with a unvented tank, so is it worth getting or should I just keep turning down the tvrs in the rooms we don't use . Thanks

 

[Odd-no-more]

Hi ExGasman, thinking of getting the Hive , but need some advice ie we don't have a thermostat just a timer and programmer and all the rads but one have TVRs, the boiler is a system with a unvented tank, so is it worth getting or should I just keep turning down the tvrs in the rooms we don't use . Thanks

I would advise getting one, without a thermostat the system will keep going until the boiler reaches temperature, wasting gas. The best solution is to fit the radiator thermostats on all but one radiator but depending on budget that may have to be done over time and they can be fitted one at a time, the hive system without the radiator 'stats will still be a good investment. Make sure you get the two chanel one for the unvented. The hive control replaces the programmer so little wiring needed

 

[POH]

I would advise getting one, without a thermostat the system will keep going until the boiler reaches temperature, wasting gas. The best solution is to fit the radiator thermostats on all but one radiator but depending on budget that may have to be done over time and they can be fitted one at a time, the hive system without the radiator 'stats will still be a good investment. Make sure you get the two chanel one for the unvented. The hive control replaces the programmer so little wiring needed

Problem is the programmer is above a rad and that is where I would have to put the hive due to wiring , was also thinking of the WiFi valves to get a bit more control.

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