Determining UK Residency Status Based on Time Spent Abroad for Those Born in the UK ? (1 Viewer)

[HKF]

Interesting thread. We have discussed similar as we have recently bought a camper van and are spending increased amounts of time in Europe. We already have a holiday home in France, and plan to use that as a base once we are retired, to travel the rest of Europe and beyond. I was lucky to be able to get an Irish passport through parental fluke of Dad having been born in Northern Ireland. So we were also wondering at what point we would become non resident in UK, if we spent more than 6 months outside. But it would seem from the Gov info given above that it’s actually very hard to lose your requirement to pay tax in UK, unless you sell everything in UK and leave permanently. Not sure we ready to do that, although give this new government a few more months and we may be racing for the door!

Be aware that being 'tax resident' is very different from being 'resident'. We're no longer tax resident in the UK but are still domiciled in the UK and have UK nationality. It can be a bit of a minefield so, if you're thinking of making any changes, make sure you take good, professional advice. We paid £7,000 for tax, residence, inheritance, business etc. advice before we made the move and it was money well spent. The company we used had been recommended to us by our UK accountant as 'not the cheapest but they are the best'. We were very happy with them and continue to use them now as our French accountant and tax advisors. I'd be happy to recommend them to anyone who messages me, as I don't think it's allowed on a post.

 

[The Wino]

Interesting thread. We have discussed similar as we have recently bought a camper van and are spending increased amounts of time in Europe. We already have a holiday home in France, and plan to use that as a base once we are retired, to travel the rest of Europe and beyond. I was lucky to be able to get an Irish passport through parental fluke of Dad having been born in Northern Ireland. So we were also wondering at what point we would become non resident in UK, if we spent more than 6 months outside. But it would seem from the Gov info given above that it’s actually very hard to lose your requirement to pay tax in UK, unless you sell everything in UK and leave permanently. Not sure we ready to do that, although give this new government a few more months and we may be racing for the door!

You surely don't mean you were trying to avoid paying UK tax but retain access to the NHS and return when you liked especially if you spent up!

 

[HKF]

EDIT

Replied incorrectly after getting confused in the thread. Sorry.

 

[ianp]

You surely don't mean you were trying to avoid paying UK tax but retain access to the NHS and return when you liked especially if you spent up!

Oh dear.......there are many many millions (both in the UK and abroad)that have the right to NHS access should they contrive to access it and don't nor never have and never will pay UK tax. or NI ...... you should perhaps be penning a few letters to your and other MP's to have this outrage stopped........!

 

[ianp]

If it makes you feel any happier, I have absolutely no intention of being 'spent up' or returning to live in the UK. I'm not sure sure why you make such a derisory comment towards me, either.

Why do you maintain your Uk domicile (of choice) HKF as it will / could still have impact on things like inheritance etc and would under the 3 year rule continue to do so even if you take up a different domicile?

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[HKF]

Why do you maintain your Uk domicile (of choice) HKF as it will / could still have impact on things like inheritance etc and would under the 3 year rule continue to do so even if you take up a different domicile?

This forum is not the place to go into the details of my personal tax / inheritance / residency status, as I'm sure you'll agree. Suffice to say that my decisions suit my personal circumstances.

 

[helen peters]

You surely don't mean you were trying to avoid paying UK tax but retain access to the NHS and return when you liked especially if you spent up!

Why would I return to use NHS? Healthcare is far better in much of Europe. Although I have paid tax for more than 40 years and never needed the NHS so maybe they owe me some ‘free’ treatment anyway! No, if we go, we go lock stock and barrel. What I was intrigued about was how long you could be out of the country before you didn’t have to pay tax. Im aware that I would need to pay tax elsewhere if I stayed there long enough! But you can always come back to UK….I know people who have lived abroad for years and then come back. It’s perfectly legal to do that if you’re a British National.

 

[HKF]

Why would I return to use NHS? Healthcare is far better in much of Europe. Although I have paid tax for more than 40 years and never needed the NHS so maybe they owe me some ‘free’ treatment anyway! No, if we go, we go lock stock and barrel. What I was intrigued about was how long you could be out of the country before you didn’t have to pay tax. Im aware that I would need to pay tax elsewhere if I stayed there long enough! But you can always come back to UK….I know people who have lived abroad for years and then come back. It’s perfectly legal to do that if you’re a British National.

Generally, you pay tax in another country as soon as you declare yourself resident there. So, if you sold everything in the UK, including your main residence, the day you move to another country is, generally, when you become resident there. This is because your main residence is now in that new country. So, if that's what you plan on doing, be sure that there is a double taxation treaty between the UK and the country you move to (for example, France), otherwise you'll could end up paying tax in both countries from day one if you're still earning in the UK. Once you've moved and become resident in, say, France you then declare all your worldwide income there and they tax you according to their tax laws. This can mean you pay more tax. For example, dividends from Limited companies are taxed at the standard rate, not a reduced rate, but the benefits of living in France can outweigh the slight extra cost. As an example, house prices are much cheaper. So, you need to think about it in a balanced way.

I do hope I'm not telling you stuff you already know! I'm just trying to be helpful

 

[Bobbejaan]

That link is specifically for NHS purposes for secondary treatment.

It isn't JUST for NHS purposes .... The UK "Ordinary Residence" tests & guidance are also used for numerous other purposes (such as for just a couple of other examples, benefit elegibility purposes, pension annual upgrades, financial investment eligibility, etc) ..... A person can even easily be legally "Ordinarily Resident" in two or more place/countries simultaneously.

 

[MotorhomersRus]

Have you considered approaching this through a broker (specialised or not). Put before them all of your requirements in writing and what you can and can't accept and let them do the leg work and negotiating. As it is, calling a call centre, your just dancing with a phone handler and a collection of tick boxes made to suit the average........if your not average then you need someone to help you...!

Not thought of that , thanks

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[MotorhomersRus]

Generally, you pay tax in another country as soon as you declare yourself resident there. So, if you sold everything in the UK, including your main residence, the day you move to another country is, generally, when you become resident there. This is because your main residence is now in that new country. So, if that's what you plan on doing, be sure that there is a double taxation treaty between the UK and the country you move to (for example, France), otherwise you'll could end up paying tax in both countries from day one if you're still earning in the UK. Once you've moved and become resident in, say, France you then declare all your worldwide income there and they tax you according to their tax laws. This can mean you pay more tax. For example, dividends from Limited companies are taxed at the standard rate, not a reduced rate, but the benefits of living in France can outweigh the slight extra cost. As an example, house prices are much cheaper. So, you need to think about it in a balanced way.

I do hope I'm not telling you stuff you already know! I'm just trying to be helpful

Many thanks and it was very interesting info . We’re not leaving the uk just want to spend more than 6 months out of the country with travel insurance………it shouldn’t be this hard to sort.

 

[MotorhomersRus]

Interesting thread. We have discussed similar as we have recently bought a camper van and are spending increased amounts of time in Europe. We already have a holiday home in France, and plan to use that as a base once we are retired, to travel the rest of Europe and beyond. I was lucky to be able to get an Irish passport through parental fluke of Dad having been born in Northern Ireland. So we were also wondering at what point we would become non resident in UK, if we spent more than 6 months outside. But it would seem from the Gov info given above that it’s actually very hard to lose your requirement to pay tax in UK, unless you sell everything in UK and leave permanently. Not sure we ready to do that, although give this new government a few more months and we may be racing for the door!

It’s travel insurance we’re after and it’s travel insurance we can’t seem to get for over 6 months out of the country. Would presume this would affect you as well.

 

[Charente16]

LV will cover us for £1,205 a year up to 90 days each trip cover is worldwide and includes cruises in case we fancy doing one
No mention of us being none residents .
Our nationwide one would be cheaper but it’s not worldwide, that’s extra cruises will be extra as well so trying to work out which would be best.

If you were 'Non - Resident' I doubt LV or any other insurance company would cover you, you would be obliged to use an insurance company in your country of residence.

 

[Charente16]

Interesting thread. We have discussed similar as we have recently bought a camper van and are spending increased amounts of time in Europe. We already have a holiday home in France, and plan to use that as a base once we are retired, to travel the rest of Europe and beyond. I was lucky to be able to get an Irish passport through parental fluke of Dad having been born in Northern Ireland. So we were also wondering at what point we would become non resident in UK, if we spent more than 6 months outside. But it would seem from the Gov info given above that it’s actually very hard to lose your requirement to pay tax in UK, unless you sell everything in UK and leave permanently. Not sure we ready to do that, although give this new government a few more months and we may be racing for the door!

You can never escape paying tax unless your worth millions then there are lots of ways to avoid it, unfortunately, I 'm not in that position.

I still retain a property in the UK in case I should decide, or more likely my wife decides to return after my demise. The property is rented out and therefore not available for my personal use during visits to the UK, maybe once every two years for a week to 10 days. We also had a holiday home in France and on retirement opted to make it our permanent home, depending on where your home is located even after the 'B' word, moving to France would be possible without too much hassle as you are already a property owner although you wouldn't benefit from the Withdrawal Agreement.

 

[MotorhomersRus]

Looks like Nationwide FlexiPlus Travel Insurance is out of the running as well……..although they said we could have as many 90 days out the country as we required after buying a upgrade for each trip…….they failed to inform us of the little bit in the small print that states we have to in the UK for at least 6 months but at least there not telling us we’re non uk residents!
See photo below.

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[philann]

I would read that as you are still living in the UK, your residence is in the UK, all your affairs are in the UK, you are not changing your address you are merely having a couple of holidays. You may be overthinking this. Lots of people go on multiple cruises each year. A friend of mine did two extended cruises last year and was away for about 10 months.

 

[gus-lopez]

The only way to find out if you qualify for 'Not Resident for Tax Purposes' ie Non Dom status is to apply to HMRC. The fact that you are out of the country for six months doesn't make any difference, as others have pointed out HMRC take a number of factors into account in making their decision. If you stayed in France for six months and a similar amount of time in the UK, you would find yourself paying tax to both countries without the benefit of any Double Taxation Treaty allowances.

I have lived/worked outside the UK for 55 years ,'on and off' and still pay UK Tax on my UK sourced income, my UK 'OAP' Pension is taxed in France under the Double Taxation Agreement between the two countries.

There was a case a few years back where the billionaire non-dom who had not been in the Uk for years was declared "resident" & subject to tax,purely because his wife lived there , as did the children who wen to private schools. Classed as "resident by centre of interests" i.e the family

Sorry it wasn’t clear, but it’s more about being told we’re not a resident of the uk for staying out of the country for over 6 months ! It only came about due to the fact that our travel insurance had changed and I had enquired for a quote from the CMCC..
I can’t consult anything as I named the quote after I was told that !

what hmrc class as resident is different to the nhs & private firms can call it what they want.official gov.uk definition would be in excess of 12 months out of the uk

s unless paying NI contributions are treated as non UK citizens in terms of access to all benefits including

can" t be done due to removal of uk ,or any citizenship, requires a country to be certain that the person can obtain another by parentage ,etc.

if your a 'full' UK passport holder then as you land here you kneel down and kiss the earth and state this is my home and my future place of residence ....it would be difficult for anyone to doubt or deny that you fully intend to take up and remain resident here.......

& that is what the EU rule is . When entering all an eu citizen from another state has to do is state " I am resident" This is basically why most countries do not bother with " residency"as they know they still cannot throw out any that cannot comply

while upwards of 50-60 % of UK adults that live in the country don't pay sufficient tax to pay their way in the country...... mmmmm interesting !

you left out" & the ones who have never & will never pay in to the system in their lives"

I could only be out of the country for 6 months a year as we would be classed as a non Uk resident.

gov.uk states over 12 months

You are not insured. T

I found that is the best way to be honest.

This requirement to book a return is only an island phenomenon, because it could not be stipulated for a European resident touring in mainland Europe. Yet many of the Underwriters operate in both insurance markets.

Quite right Geoff. Everything here is european wide including my car insurance & breakdown cover.

A person can even easily be legally "Ordinarily Resident" in two or more place/countries simultaneously.

This^^^^^^^^^

Not thought of that , thanks

try Stewart Collins in Swansea. They specialise in 12 month vehicle insurance for UK regsitered vehicles that only return for mot"s. They also offer breakdown cover eu wide so would either offer insurance of the type you want or would be able to point you in the right direction

https://www.stuartcollins.com/

If you were 'Non - Resident' I doubt LV or any other insurance company would cover you, you would be obliged to use an insurance company in your country of residence.

As above .They insure Uk vehicles out of the country ,basically ,permanently

 

[HKF]

Looks like Nationwide FlexiPlus Travel Insurance is out of the running as well……..although they said we could have as many 90 days out the country as we required after buying a upgrade for each trip…….they failed to inform us of the little bit in the small print that states we have to in the UK for at least 6 months but at least there not telling us we’re non uk residents!
See photo below.

View attachment 931913

I would challenge that. You would be 'living' in the UK, as your main residence is in the UK, and presumably you're registered with a UK doctor; you're just 'on holiday' in France. I'd put it to them and get them to confirm in writing whether or not you can be 'on holiday' for more than 6 months.

 

[MotorhomersRus]

I would challenge that. You would be 'living' in the UK, as your main residence is in the UK, and presumably you're registered with a UK doctor; you're just 'on holiday' in France. I'd put it to them and get them to confirm in writing whether or not you can be 'on holiday' for more than 6 months.

Thanks for that I will phone them and ask thst.