Determining UK Residency Status Based on Time Spent Abroad for Those Born in the UK ? (1 Viewer)

[MotorhomersRus]

The only way to find out if you qualify for 'Not Resident for Tax Purposes' ie Non Dom status is to apply to HMRC. The fact that you are out of the country for six months doesn't make any difference, as others have pointed out HMRC take a number of factors into account in making their decision. If you stayed in France for six months and a similar amount of time in the UK, you would find yourself paying tax to both countries without the benefit of any Double Taxation Treaty allowances.

I have lived/worked outside the UK for 55 years ,'on and off' and still pay UK Tax on my UK sourced income, my UK 'OAP' Pension is taxed in France under the Double Taxation Agreement between the two countries.

Thanks for that info. We won’t be staying anywhere longer than 3 months. But we are hoping to be out of the uk for possible 9 months over a year hence the problem. We pay taxes here in the Uk.

 

[Northernraider]

Thanks for the replies

I've read the HMRC guidelines but couldn't find a clear answer.

We're planning to travel for more than six months a year. After getting a quote from our Nationwide FlexPlus account travel insurance (now covered by Aviva), we found that each trip would be a separate insurance amounting to about £1,000 a year.

I also tried Red Pennant for a quote and encountered two issues:
1. They don’t cover long-haul holidays.
2. The first question was whether we reside in the UK for more than six months.

It appears we can only stay out of the country for six months; otherwise, we void our coverage and aren’t insured.

When I asked why I couldn’t get long-haul insurance elsewhere and that it shouldn’t affect my cover with them, after all they don’t cover long haul, they explained that spending more than six months abroad effectively makes us non-residents of the UK.

I mentioned I'd never heard of this before and needed to check if it's true.
The reply was , that I was the first person to query this question , which seems surprising .

So now need to verify if this is correct

With travel insurance I've always bought a backpackers policy as that allows longer trips. It covers you, personal belongings. Gadgets. Can add cover for sports etc.. everything else is covered on the camper insurance. I've had policies that cover up to a year. I've never paid more than £100 for travel insurance up till now. But I'm only 51 and have no health issues

 

[ChrisL]

With travel insurance I've always bought a backpackers policy as that allows longer trips. It covers you, personal belongings. Gadgets. Can add cover for sports etc.. everything else is covered on the camper insurance. I've had policies that cover up to a year. I've never paid more than £100 for travel insurance up till now. But I'm only 51 and have no health issues

Unfortunately backpacker insurance is not available for us oldies, at least I haven't been able to find any.

 

[TwistNShout]

As advised speak to experts, for insurance purposes you are at the mercy of small print, we used a specialist insurance broker whom shopped around for the best deal

 

[MotorhomersRus]

With travel insurance I've always bought a backpackers policy as that allows longer trips. It covers you, personal belongings. Gadgets. Can add cover for sports etc.. everything else is covered on the camper insurance. I've had policies that cover up to a year. I've never paid more than £100 for travel insurance up till now. But I'm only 51 and have no health issues

Will need to look at a backpackers policy thanks

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[MotorhomersRus]

Unfortunately backpacker insurance is not available for us oldies, at least I haven't been able to find any.

Oh perhaps we’re to old as well but will have a look.

 

[MotorhomersRus]

LV will cover us for £1,205 a year up to 90 days each trip cover is worldwide and includes cruises in case we fancy doing one
No mention of us being none residents .
Our nationwide one would be cheaper but it’s not worldwide, that’s extra cruises will be extra as well so trying to work out which would be best.

 

[ianp]

There is no definitive statement as to what makes for a resident. It is largely based on many individual variations.
Have a look here especially the last paragraph..........

Ordinary residence tool

www.gov.uk

This is not applicable for tax liability for which there are very specific and detailed conditions.........

 

[nicholsong]

There is no definitive statement as to what makes for a resident. It is largely based on many individual variations.
Have a look here especially the last paragraph..........

Ordinary residence tool

www.gov.uk

This is not applicable for tax liability for which there are very specific and detailed conditions.........

That link is specifically for NHS purposes for secondary treatment.

 

[ianp]

It is the 'Government' tool for assessing whether someone is 'ordinarily' resident as there is no legal definition as to what constitutes non fiscal residence. This tool is the one I am informed that the courts will reference when attempting to establish if whether or not a person is or was considered to be resident. The bodies that make up the social services (inc the NHS)are the only government bodies apart from HMRC who address the subject of residence and that is the reason as to why the 'tool' is quoted. The HMRC guidence has little really connected to real residence.

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[Yorick]

In my yoof I went backpacking round the world for a year. No problems.
Kids still do this, often more than a year.

I'd say don't worry. Your UK passport will always be valid.

 

[The Wino]

It is the 'Government' tool for assessing whether someone is 'ordinarily' resident as there is no legal definition as to what constitutes non fiscal residence. This tool is the one I am informed that the courts will reference when attempting to establish if whether or not a person is or was considered to be resident. The bodies that make up the social services (inc the NHS)are the only government bodies apart from HMRC who address the subject of residence and that is the reason as to why the 'tool' is quoted. The HMRC guidence has little really connected to real residence.

It would make a lot of sense though if the HMRC tool that determines who pays UK tax was aligned with the NHS definition of who is eligible for NHS secondary care although it making sense doesn't of course mean it's going to happen.
The other thing that would make sense would be an NI rate that expats pay to retain access to the NHS a state pension and any other benefits if they eventually return and compulsory health insurance for anyone entering the UK without automatic NHS entitlement.

 

[nicholsong]

It would make a lot of sense though if the HMRC tool that determines who pays UK tax was aligned with the NHS definition of who is eligible for NHS secondary care although it making sense doesn't of course mean it's going to happen.
The other thing that would make sense would be an NI rate that expats pay to retain access to the NHS a state pension and any other benefits if they eventually return and compulsory health insurance for anyone entering the UK without automatic NHS entitlement.

There is - NI Voluntary Contributions, see here -

Voluntary National Insurance

National Insurance contributions you can choose to pay when you have a gap in your National Insurance record.

www.gov.uk

 

[The Wino]

There is - NI Voluntary Contributions, see here -

Voluntary National Insurance

National Insurance contributions you can choose to pay when you have a gap in your National Insurance record.

www.gov.uk

Not quite what I'm suggesting. What I'm saying is that non resident UK citizens unless paying NI contributions are treated as non UK citizens in terms of access to all benefits including use of the NHS and at the same time we introduce mandatory health insurance on entry for anyone not a UK resident.

 

[ianp]

Not quite what I'm suggesting. What I'm saying is that non resident UK citizens unless paying NI contributions are treated as non UK citizens in terms of access to all benefits including use of the NHS and at the same time we introduce mandatory health insurance on entry for anyone not a UK resident.

In reality W , if your a 'full' UK passport holder then as you land here you kneel down and kiss the earth and state this is my home and my future place of residence ....it would be difficult for anyone to doubt or deny that you fully intend to take up and remain resident here.......
As regards tax......you have no chance of alignment as they would lose billions.......its quite easy to prove your domestic residence ...it's very difficult to prove your not 'fiscally' resident......as always its in the tax mans favour!
Contrast and compare as they say.........

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/179209/statutory_residence_test.pdf.pdf

Start at Sch 1 and jump the preamble.....

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[The Wino]

In reality W , if your a 'full' UK passport holder then as you land here you kneel down and kiss the earth and state this is my home and my future place of residence ....it would be difficult for anyone to doubt or deny that you fully intend to take up and remain resident here.......
As regards tax......you have no chance of alignment as they would lose billions.......its quite easy to prove your domestic residence ...it's very difficult to prove your not 'fiscally' resident......as always its in the tax mans favour!
Contrast and compare as they say.........

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/179209/statutory_residence_test.pdf.pdf

Start at Sch 1 and jump the preamble.....

Who would lose billions and why?. It seems to me to be totally unacceptable that someone earning abroad can avoid paying uk tax and keep the benefits of being a uk citizen .

 

[OldAgeTravellers]

MotorhomersRus It seems your query is mainly about insurance not tax or NHS which can be very complicated.
For insurance it’s there rules so you have to comply, each company is different. We are with Nationwide Flex Plus but when it came to a 3 month trip because of age and health questions Aviva wanted £800+ extra for the trip and insist on you having travel pre booked both ways or the insurance is void. As we were touring Scandinavia mainly Norway we looked at what cover each country would give under the EHIC / GHIC scheme. We concluded that it would be better to self insure for pre existing conditions, because the charges for hospitalisation in the Nordic countries are not expensive. If we bteak a leg or something not related to pre existing conditions then the basic Nationwide cover would kick in although the pre booked travel requirement could be difficult. If one or both were to die. Then just cremate there and be done with it. Then the survivor has a booze up with the family on return.
The vehicle can be more of a problem as officially it has to be UK street legal, but you can’t get an MOT. If it is out of the UK for more than 6 months it has to be registered in the country it is in. Which can be difficult or impossible for a UK built vehicle. If you are travelling to different countries then you may be ok but if away more than a year the MOT, becomes a problem. How would they know? Most country’s have ANPR cameras working 24/7 looking for things like that.
In one post you said you will not be out of the country for more than 3 months at a time which, if so, is no problem. In another post you said you wanted to travel abroad for 9 months, this then would be a problem.
Best of luck, make sure you read and understand every word of your insurance policies as they are all different and as I said above “Their Rules”. I once took a case to the Ombudsman about the meaning of “All Risks” They concluded that it means whatever the insurance company wanted it to mean and it didn’t mean All Risks!

 

[ianp]

Who would lose billions and why?. It seems to me to be totally unacceptable that someone earning abroad can avoid paying uk tax and keep the benefits of being a uk citizen .

Mmmm so you think that someone that doesn't live in the country should suffer a double taxation jeopardy while upwards of 50-60 % of UK adults that live in the country don't pay sufficient tax to pay their way in the country...... mmmmm interesting !
As to losing billions well if you were as easily 'none resident' in a financial sense as you could be in a domestic sense then no one working overseas would pay UK income tax on their foreign earnings when they return to the UK either regularly or occasionally as they do at present. The revenue from these people is counted in the many billions per year......
None doms by the way are specifically people that are domiciled in another country and that have a foreign earnings stream that is taxed at source but not in the UK. Currently they pay a fixed price to the Treasury in order to remain within the UK on a residential basis. Any of that wealth repatriated to the UK (to live on or invest etc etc etc) is then taxed as if earnt here I believe..... so if you squeeze them too much they'll just up sticks and live elsewhere and that wealth importation is lost....... as we'll most likely see over the next few years......a bit like clamouring for windfall taxes on the UK oil majors.........the very vast majority of their profits are earned abroad which they return and pay corporation tax on in this country......squeeze them too much by envy taxes and they'll just up sticks and FO with something like 1 in every 5 or 6 pounds of pension investment earnings ....... Shell has just returned to the UK after a short stay in the Netherlands because of a change in business regulations.....they could just as easily move to the US......that brass plaque only has four screws in it.....
There's a sweet spot to taxation that maximises income and its seldom achieved through the politics of envy.... lets hope our woman has her finger on the pulse as it could turn out expensive for many in different and unexpected ways !

 

[MotorhomersRus]

MotorhomersRus It seems your query is mainly about insurance not tax or NHS which can be very complicated.
For insurance it’s there rules so you have to comply, each company is different. We are with Nationwide Flex Plus but when it came to a 3 month trip because of age and health questions Aviva wanted £800+ extra for the trip and insist on you having travel pre booked both ways or the insurance is void. As we were touring Scandinavia mainly Norway we looked at what cover each country would give under the EHIC / GHIC scheme. We concluded that it would be better to self insure for pre existing conditions, because the charges for hospitalisation in the Nordic countries are not expensive. If we bteak a leg or something not related to pre existing conditions then the basic Nationwide cover would kick in although the pre booked travel requirement could be difficult. If one or both were to die. Then just cremate there and be done with it. Then the survivor has a booze up with the family on return.
The vehicle can be more of a problem as officially it has to be UK street legal, but you can’t get an MOT. If it is out of the UK for more than 6 months it has to be registered in the country it is in. Which can be difficult or impossible for a UK built vehicle. If you are travelling to different countries then you may be ok but if away more than a year the MOT, becomes a problem. How would they know? Most country’s have ANPR cameras working 24/7 looking for things like that.
In one post you said you will not be out of the country for more than 3 months at a time which, if so, is no problem. In another post you said you wanted to travel abroad for 9 months, this then would be a problem.
Best of luck, make sure you read and understand every word of your insurance policies as they are all different and as I said above “Their Rules”. I once took a case to the Ombudsman about the meaning of “All Risks” They concluded that it means whatever the insurance company wanted it to mean and it didn’t mean All Risks!

Yes my question was brought about by a insurance quote by the caravan and motorhome club who told me I could only be out of the country for 6 months a year as we would be classed as a non Uk resident.
Nationwide’s change to Aviva is not as good as it was before. And yes agree that having to give dates for traveling home is a problem although she was happy if I gave her the last possible date we would come back.
We plan on traveling for 2 separate 90 days in Europe and hope to fit in a long haul trip as well which might take us to 9 months in total in a year.
Seeing that you now can get a 6 month visa for France and add on you 90 days either side I wonder how there going about get insurance for that.
Thanks for your info

 

[nicholsong]

Who would lose billions and why?. It seems to me to be totally unacceptable that someone earning abroad can avoid paying uk tax and keep the benefits of being a uk citizen .

And what do you think about somebody like me who has not lived in UK for 10 years?

I pay tax on all my income, because of its nature, in UK and nothing in Poland.

Maybe the Poles think that is unfair. Maybe HMRC are rubbing their hands at my part of the Billions.

As ianp points out above international liability to tax is a fragile topic to be dealt with carefully, not on simplistic terms.

I could 'up my tax sticks' and move to many places.

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[OldAgeTravellers]

And yes agree that having to give dates for traveling home is a problem although she was happy if I gave her the last possible date we would come back.

Make sure you get that in writing. I have spent hours arguing with them and finally got a direct answer from underwriting. Unless you actually have a firm return booking at the time of starting your journey. You are not insured. The only way round it is to pay for a flexible ticket. (Much more expensive) and move the dates later. We never book a return as we don*t know when or how we will return. I will be taking it up with the Ombudsman when I return. But doubt it will succeed as they make the rules. But at least it will cost them the Ombudsman’s fee. But the cost for us of extending past 30 days is prohibitive anyway. And even worse with all the other companies I tried.

 

[ianp]

Yes my question was brought about by a insurance quote by the caravan and motorhome club who told me I could only be out of the country for 6 months a year as we would be classed as a non Uk resident.
Nationwide’s change to Aviva is not as good as it was before. And yes agree that having to give dates for traveling home is a problem although she was happy if I gave her the last possible date we would come back.
We plan on traveling for 2 separate 90 days in Europe and hope to fit in a long haul trip as well which might take us to 9 months in total in a year.
Seeing that you now can get a 6 month visa for France and add on you 90 days either side I wonder how there going about get insurance for that.
Thanks for your info

Have you considered approaching this through a broker (specialised or not). Put before them all of your requirements in writing and what you can and can't accept and let them do the leg work and negotiating. As it is, calling a call centre, your just dancing with a phone handler and a collection of tick boxes made to suit the average........if your not average then you need someone to help you...!

 

[nicholsong]

This requirement to book a return is only an island phenomenon, because it could not be stipulated for a European resident touring in mainland Europe. Yet many of the Underwriters operate in both insurance markets.

 

[The Wino]

This requirement to book a return is only an island phenomenon, because it could not be stipulated for a European resident touring in mainland Europe. Yet many of the Underwriters operate in both insurance markets.

For anyone living in a Schengen country it would be very difficult to specify a geographic limit I wouldn't be surprised if EU law would prevent such a limit.

 

[Geistguy]

Would there be an issue with staying registered with your GP if non resident?

Unless you need regular appointments or treatment how would they know ?

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[HKF]

In my yoof I went backpacking round the world for a year. No problems.
Kids still do this, often more than a year.

I'd say don't worry. Your UK passport will always be valid.

Passports are to do with nationality, not residency.

 

[HKF]

Unless you need regular appointments or treatment how would they know ?

When you leave the UK, you're obliged to tell the tax man and the NHS that you've left. The NHS (Newcastle) are supposed to then inform your GP that you've left are they're supposed to remove you from the register. In practice, though, this sometimes doesn't work, since the GPs retain the benefits of having you on their books without actually having to see you and, therefore, get paid more for doing less. I know this from experience.

 

[ElliesBoss]

Everyone's circumstances are different. A Canadian relative of mine got British citizenship recently and he was only allowed to leave the UK for a very limited period of time during the period (three years I think) leading up to him being granted citizenship. It was weeks rather than months. But as I say everybody's situation is different.

 

[HKF]

Everyone's circumstances are different. A Canadian relative of mine got British citizenship recently and he was only allowed to leave the UK for a very limited period of time during the period (three years I think) leading up to him being granted citizenship. It was weeks rather than months. But as I say everybody's situation is different.

Absolutely. For our first 5 years in France, we must spend at least 6 months of the year in France. After that, we can spend as much time out as we like without losing our residency.

 

[helen peters]

Interesting thread. We have discussed similar as we have recently bought a camper van and are spending increased amounts of time in Europe. We already have a holiday home in France, and plan to use that as a base once we are retired, to travel the rest of Europe and beyond. I was lucky to be able to get an Irish passport through parental fluke of Dad having been born in Northern Ireland. So we were also wondering at what point we would become non resident in UK, if we spent more than 6 months outside. But it would seem from the Gov info given above that it’s actually very hard to lose your requirement to pay tax in UK, unless you sell everything in UK and leave permanently. Not sure we ready to do that, although give this new government a few more months and we may be racing for the door!

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