Couple of French letters

[Chris]

Dartford Tunnel toll does it all of the time for non-payment of tunnel toll. Though according to local TV not many fines seem to be paid!

Mick

I was just wondering what the French would do if you didn't pay their fines?

 

[David and Sally]

Attached is the legal advice from Ride magazine's solicitor.

Since posing the question I've found a letter to 'Ride Magazine' with a question answered by Andrew Dalton from Dalton White Motorcycle Solicitors, their legal advice contributor. Full question and answer below...

"I have just come back from a ten-day riding break in Spain, which I can highly recommend – Malaga has some fantastic roads. But I have come home to a nasty souvenir, a €50 fine for speeding.

I have clearly been caught in a radar trap. I have heard so much conflicting information from different people that I am unsure what to do with it.

Lots of people have told me that I can simply ignore it, because the Spanish police cannot do anything within the UK jurisdiction. Other people have said pay it just to avoid any hassle – and my wife is convinced that if I ever set foot in mainland Europe again I will be carted off to jail if I don’t pay. Also, once we Brexit, will these fines have any impact at all? I am planning on going back to Andaiucia next year. Will Brexit make it more difficult?

Answer

Pay it! Now that I have told you to pay it, pay it as soon as practicable. You will not be locked up if you go to Spain but your wife has the right idea, albeit dramatically. It has entered biking folklore that you can simply ignore foreign tickets: you can’t; or at least you can’t ignore tickets issued in the European Union, while we remain in the EU.

By an EU-wide agreement a local fine, if unchallenged, becomes payable, if it isn’t paid, the fine is sent on to the local agency – in this case, the DVLA – which will deploy its enforcement officers, who are usually Magistrates’ Courts Officers. The longer that you leave it, the more steps are taken end in the worst case that I have seen, a €100 fine escalated up to just shy of £1000 – so pay your €50. On the positive side, no points go on your licence.

As to what happens after Brexit, I cannot tell you, A ‘crash-out’ will probably mean no fines, as they are enforceable under an EU treaty. While this may sound like you’ll be able to tear across Europe without worrying about fines, many European police forces have the power to seize a foreign vehicle for even minor traffic infringements and without a method of enforcing fines on a UK driver, they are more likely to use that power.

If we have a Brexit with a ‘run-off period, I would hope for at least a couple of years of things staying as they are with mutual recognition of licences and insurance and also, mutual recognition of fines. However, this is by no means certain. I really would not like to speculate how a no-deal Brexit would impact on motorcyclists traveling to the EU, but there is a pretty clear fall-back position; the 1968 Vienna Convention. Riding your own bike in Spain will certainly be possible under this, which was used before the EU and governs non-EU traffic in the EU. However, we might need separate insurance and potentially an international driving permit.

But the shape of any rules will be outside of the UK government’s power if there’s a crash-out Brexit; it will be up to the EU whether it accepts UK licences (it should as it’s currently a Euro licence); but I think insurance will require a Green Card for us in Europe (and for EU drivers coming to the UK). It will be more of a hassle to get to the EU by bike but it won’t be impossible. However, Germany and Portugal are not parties to the 1968 Convention, so I would avoid travel on your own bike there until things are clearer.

If things go horribly pear-shaped, we may be required to buy local insurance on some borders. This is what happens upon entering Morocco (a member of the 1968 Convention) if you do not have pre-existing cover for Morocco but it is not terribly expensive. How good the insurance is, I have never tested. One thing to ponder; my current insurance certificate insures me right across the EU including about four months post-Brexit so I am not sure if the insurers have actually considered the impact of a crash-out, or hard, Brexit.

Andrew Dalton

RiDE Magazine November 2018"

 

[Polar bear]

Got flashed last October in the east of France ticket arrived yesterday. I never use toll roads so they needed to get money of me another way.

 

[yodeli]

I tap the addresses into Google but it didn't show a direct point. Although it does give me an idea of area.

Not fixed ones probably, mobile ones or even in a car driving next to you!

 

[nicholsong]

The speed limits that often catch me out are the 50kph when entering a French village/town where the name sign is often obscured by bushes, at least from the RH seat. Often my co-pilot warns me when she can see it from the LH seat, but I still cannt see it from the RH seat until we are nearly on top of it.

If one is caught by a portable radar trap and stopped one could go back and take photos, but a fine arriving in UK months later gives no opportunity and by then the bushes have been cut back/died off.

Geoff

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[EMS]

We went through the tunnel two years ago (going east) and were above the speed limit as I missed the limit sign at the entry to the tunnel, luckily we did not get a fine so I have been very careful each time we use this route.
There were many more cameras last September when we returned using this route so we will also await a fine.
We found a campsite on the east side in the town close to the tunnel it was rather abandoned at the end of the season so not recommended but interesting.

 

[Casper46]

I got flashed last week, I was just entering a village so I have no excuse, just forgot that it changed from 70 to 50. It was the first camera that we saw in two days that hadn’t been painted over by the gilets jaune. I think it’s called Sod’s law.

 

[gus-lopez]

Now I have registered and got my Crit Air Sticker, does that make it easier for them to find me over someone that hasn't registered I wonder

No they just email the dvla with the reg numbers they require & the offence supposedly committed.

Are we issuing fines to our European cousins?

They could do but don't as the UK prosecutes the actual driver whereas everyone else fines the registered keeper.So the UK rarely does it.

80kmh was so difficult

It shouldn't be . Come with me as we have to work hard to attain 80kph .

more fuel efficient and probably cheaper than random fines and police hold-ups.

I can only recall a couple of gendarmes seen in 80,000km across France .Only place guaranteed to find them is at the toll booths or the rest area immediately after.

I was just wondering what the French would do if you didn't pay their fines?

What @David and Sally said .Hand it to local traffic office debt collectors.

 

[GPW]

It's annoying to be fined when there's simply no intent to speed.
'Intent' is elevated to huge levels by the legal system, like Blair invading Iraq, no intent to mount a war of aggression, just a misreading of the dossier he wrote.

I seem to recall it cost about €90 to cross France in a car last year, but the journey itself was super relaxing. I think we took the entire brand new A65 from start to finish which was a great road to just drift along and see the scenery, economical and no wallet seeking gendarmes jumpig out of bushes.
We could also travel fast, a good 100km in an hour consistently.

I hate the idea of Peage motorways but I even managed to avoid the bizarre one way system in Le Mans so it did streamline the trip somewhat and the fuel saved has to be deducted from the cost.
It's a shame we can't drive onto a train like the old days, a much better idea than motorways!

 

[PORKSTER]

A the sort of party I attend, french letters are compulsory & I use a lot more than a couple

At least you do something fast

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[nicholsong]

It's annoying to be fined when there's simply no intent to speed.
'Intent' is elevated to huge levels by the legal system, like Blair invading Iraq, no intent to mount a war of aggression, just a misreading of the dossier he wrote.

I seem to recall it cost about €90 to cross France in a car last year, but the journey itself was super relaxing. I think we took the entire brand new A65 from start to finish which was a great road to just drift along and see the scenery, economical and no wallet seeking gendarmes jumpig out of bushes.
We could also travel fast, a good 100km in an hour consistently.

I hate the idea of Peage motorways but I even managed to avoid the bizarre one way system in Le Mans so it did streamline the trip somewhat and the fuel saved has to be deducted from the cost.
It's a shame we can't drive onto a train like the old days, a much better idea than motorways!

So you do not like:-

Trundling along quiet country lanes for 25km to :-

French Aires next to canals/rivers
Buying fresh croissants for breakfast
French markets
Les Routiers for lunch
Excellent restaurants for 'Le Menu'
Vinyards for wine

"So sad, what a pity, never mind"

I will have yours while you speed through.

Geoff

 

[GPW]

So you do not like:-

Trundling along quiet country lanes for 25km to :-

French Aires next to canals/rivers
Buying fresh croissants for breakfast
French markets
Les Routiers for lunch
Excellent restaurants for 'Le Menu'
Vinyards for wine

"So sad, what a pity, never mind"

I will have yours while you speed through.

Geoff

Yes those are exactly the things I do like Geoff, you really don't know me do you? . I've toured many times through very small D roads indeed on many happy afternoons in France. I've bought a lot of wine direct from the vineyards too. In the past.

But for travelling long distances in France now I've given up on them. 90kmh was fine for me.
You see it's a maximum legal speed, not the speed I actually travel at. But sometimes when sweeping down a hill and back up the other side on a road for example like the one from Alencon to Le Mans I would touch or get close to 90kmh many times, all perfectly legal back then. Sometimes I'd even drift into a village at 55kmh before I got the speed down to 50kmh, but like the french themselves my driving style doesn't always fit within the rigid speed limits of today in all circumstances at all times. I don't intend ever to 'speed', but I need to drive to conditions and will avoid putting myself in the position of prosecution for genuine mistakes when necessary.

Last year with the 80kmh and the police tooled up and ready to pounce on every indiscretion I had to put the brakes on at every dip to stop nudging above 80kmh, because I knew they'd all be camped out at exactly those spots. That, coupled with the fact everywhere was always shut meant that my usual gentle touring of France turned into a farce of speed limit hugging and looking at the closed shops. After the Nth LeClerc had to be visited we decided it was all a bit of a waste of time and we'd just take the autoroute.

The autoroute allowed me to swoop over valleys up to 130kmh, ok so I only reached about 65mph down most of them as I was just cruising but the stress was off, I was safely legal without having to really work at it and focus on the numbers and position on the speedo dial. All I really saw on the minor roads was the speedo TBH, I could have done that here on the A14 or M6 for much less money and even stayed at home each night .

So yes it's sad, rural France has been ruined for me as a touring opportunity, I'll take the peage now and just tour the last little bit, it's cheaper, safer and more relaxing.

 

[nicholsong]

Yes those are exactly the things I do like Geoff, you really don't know me do you? . I've toured many times through very small D roads indeed on many happy afternoons in France. I've bought a lot of wine direct from the vineyards too. In the past.

/QUOTE]

No I do not know you, but I was commenting on your post, which seemed to indicate a desire to gobble up the kms.

"I seem to recall it cost about €90 to cross France in a car last year, but the journey itself was super relaxing. I think we took the entire brand new A65 from start to finish which was a great road to just drift along and see the scenery, economical and no wallet seeking gendarmes jumpig out of bushes.
We could also travel fast, a good 100km in an hour consistently."

We will happily do those 100km in 4 days.

Geoff

 

[Ridgeway]

Keep in mind that if you have unpaid fines when entering a country they can refuse entry until you pay. It's a standard approach here in CH and many many people that ignore speeding fines in hire cars get a nasty surprise when they come back a few months or a year or so later..... twice i've been called by colleagues that wonder why they've been escorted off to a small room at the airport and asked to get their wallet out, a phone call and some translation and it all becomes clear.

Don't pay and you risk re-entry or at least get forced to pay up on the spot (with admin fees).

 

[Roger20]

With Euro 6 engines and DPF issues isn't it going to be even harder to maintain 2000 rpm for at least 20 minutes without using motorways at least some of the time?

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[gus-lopez]

With Euro 6 engines and DPF issues isn't it going to be even harder to maintain 2000 rpm for at least 20 minutes without using motorways at least some of the time?

You just use lower gears.

 

[Allanm]

With Euro 6 engines and DPF issues isn't it going to be even harder to maintain 2000 rpm for at least 20 minutes without using motorways at least some of the time?

It’s only the single carriageway roads on France that have 80kph limits, if you are travelling through France then it’s unlikely you will spend all your time on these roads and you will come across a motorway or dual carriageway with higher limits.
We have just returned from a 3000+ mile jaunt through France Spain and Portugal. Plenty of roads there where we can up the speed a little in our Euro 6 engined Fiat and it seems to go through it’s dpf regeneration quite successfully at France’s lower speeds.

 

[Hilewaychile]

Me too. Might have got one from last August. If I get one I'll pay the fine and drive around France rather than through it.

So you rather cut France out of your life than pay a fine for commiting a motoring offence? If you mean it, you have got your priorities seriously wrong.

 

[Hilewaychile]

I just received a FPN from the traffic dept of Kingston on Thames, Surrey, based on my reg plate. It included two photos of a vehicle - a silver Vauxhall Astra - making an illegal left turn.

I have never owned a silver Vauxhall Astra. I have never been down the road in the photos. My white-with-flashes Vauxhall Movano 3.5 tonne self build was, at the time of the incident, 1200 miles away in Spain, in a pal's garage, with its starter battery on trickle charge in my home, 1/2 mile away.

Three clicks on the excellent DVLA website reveals the full details of my vehicle. But this, of course, would take someone 2 minutes of their time to do. But time is money, public service budgets are stretched ... except that someone is now going to have to spend a lot longer dealing with my irrefutible contestation of the FPN.

 

[Wee Bold Davy]

Right will keep a lookout on the post box

Buy a dog and chill, your worries will be over

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[David and Sally]

So you rather cut France out of your life than pay a fine for commiting a motoring offence? If you mean it, you have got your priorities seriously wrong.

It's more than that.

The UK is a nightmare to drive in but France is catching up with its speed limits, road humps and generally slow progress other than on a motorway. I used to love driving in France and have done so for a good number of years, but not now. As has been said on the forum many are now just biting the bullet and using toll roads - and they are not cheap now.

They appear to be targetting UK drivers recently for fines - maybe that's just an impression.

France is now expensive. Fuel, food, drinks, hotel charges, road tolls. On last years trip in the MoHo it struck us that France and Italy seemed expensive, Austria was OK and Germany was good value. Just our opinions.

As we get closer to the holiday periods you can bet that one or other French union will get stroppy and we'll have strikes designed to frustrate travellers. Dockers, customs officials, air traffic, farmers blocking roads so we'll have Operation Stack all over again with the delays and diversions that causes to anyone wanting to get to Dover or the Chunnel. Last year we really thought our holiday was going to be ruined by strike action and we had a very expensive and time-consuming diversion to avoid the M20. Again, I have used most of the ports to and from but have avoided Dover and the Chunnel for this reason.

France has some spectacular scenery, lovely wine and food and some nice people, but so does Germany, Belgium, Spain and other European countries and with (what I consider to be) a growing level of resentment at their own government even (yellow vests) some of the French population is growing uneasy and revolting.

In the MoHo I don't like thinking about keeping away from the port towns until I really have to drive through for 'fear' of being disturbed by immigrants. Maybe that's irrational but we were searched three times in Caen last year before we even got past security. One of the officers said they found an immigrant in the garage of a MoHo not long before.

France used to be such a lovely country to visit but, in my opinion only, not now. As such we are staying in the UK in the MoHo this year unless we decide last minute to go abroad and then it will be using France as little as possible. On my two m/cycle tours we are going Hook of Holland and using the Chunnel a couple of times but only to get up and down from Belgium and beyond as soon as possible. We will not be staying in France.

In my view France has a sniffy attitude to GB and their President seems hellbent on pursuing his Grand European Superstate plans and we are certainly not helping him in that right now!

That is only me and I am sure France will survive without my Euro spend but at this time I choose to spend it elsewhere. You are all welcome to disagree and tell me I have my priorities wrong but that is what democracy is all about.

 

[JockandRita]

That is only me

And us. Well put.

If Rita and I had proper sea legs, we wouldn't drive through France to get to Spain, but whilst we have to drive through, the only contribution we make to their economy, is through fuel and the occasional baguette purchase en route. We'd rather avoid it if we could. We love touring Germany, where prices seem to be reasonable, rather than over inflated.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[Sundowners]

This 'france and us' thing is not new-------- when I first started travelling back in the 60s I used to by-pass France as much as possible, in the 80s we used to stop on our way through to the south to pick grapes and the people in the shops in small villages were really friendly, at that time it seemed like the old animosity had disappeared,---- in fact just a few days ago I popped into a baker for some bread and not only the lady serving but also the customers gave me a cheerful bon jour (maybe they took one look at me and felt sorry for me!!!!??) So I still believe that the 'people' are still as friendly as they always were----- maybe the gov are a bit pi$$ed off that they will be a bit short of cash when we leave.
I do agree that the new speed limits are a pain, I suspect it is just to force more traffic onto the toll roads.
I would like to think the speeding fines are sent to all speeders whatever country they are from!!!!!!

 

[SpeedyDux]

Last time we toured France was 2015 so thanks for the heads-up about the latest speeding enforcement.

Having discovered the speed limiter feature on my X290 I expect that might be handy for driving those 80kph limit main roads this year.

On mine it is operated by the switch on the cruise control stalk.

 

[tuscancouple]

Well with all these folks stating that they are no longer visiting France means there's more space on aires and campsites for those of us who will continue to visit.

Mick

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[David and Sally]

Well with all these folks stating that they are no longer visiting France means there's more space on aires and campsites for those of us who will continue to visit.

Mick

LOL. To every cloud there is a silver lining. Go fill yer boots!!

 

[GPW]

So you rather cut France out of your life than pay a fine for commiting a motoring offence? If you mean it, you have got your priorities seriously wrong.

Sounds weird huh? Maybe because it's not what we are saying at all...

.... It's the constant unknown random threat of surveillance and pouncing on any mistake which ruins the drive. If the driving is simply no fun, even when setting out with a firm intention of obeying every single petty rule and regulation of the road, what's the point of going there?

Holidays are supposed to be fun and relaxing. We'd rather cut France out because it's too miserable and stressful to drive there anymore. You're also wide open to number plate cloning because it costs considerably more just to see the evidence of a French fine than to pay it, best keep a diary of your route for that inevitable result.

Of course Spain, Portugal, Italy etc all have their speeding laws too, but unlike France you have to be pretty deliberate in speeding to get done there.

I wonder what percentage of Brits got fined in France over the past year? I wouldn't be surprised it it's a good 50%. Wonder how many won't be going back - half of them? With the upcoming recession too we're going to need more UK camping sites, I need to work out how to convert my front garden LOL!!

 

[Andrew E]

Very interested in these posts as I too was booked in France in January. I was caught at Buigny St Maclou just north of Abbeville on the D1001 as I was heading for home. 90 euros for doing 97km when limit 70. I do not normally break speed limits but I think here the camera was placed just before the town and I did not slow down quickly enough. Well that's my excuse. Many UK drivers use this road to avoid the A16 toll so a good place to put a camera. I shall pay the toll in future. The French certainly did not hang about in my case, it happened on 31 January, the notice was dispatched 6 February and received by me on the 14th.
At least no points involved, but does anyone know if you have to inform your insurance company on renewal?

 

[Larby]

At least no points involved, but does anyone know if you have to inform your insurance company on renewal?

Only if you want to or announce it on an open forum

 

[Husky]

We don't get any speeding fines cause wife often drives and she drives slow.... mind you, she does everything slow!! Anybody suggest a new wife..

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