Could i damage my battery

[kingoftheroad]

I have a new lithium leisure battery fitted and i definitely want to fit the new Victron 50amp charger when it's finally released, but, the release date, appears to keep getting pushed back, the problem i have is that we go to France/Spain for two months 20th April, so the latest I would need the charger, to give me a chance to fit, would be the 19th April, which is now looking unlikely.

For this two month holiday break only, could I get away without a DC to DC charger being installed, or could I damage my battery and/or alternator?

 

[oldiesontour]

How is your present battery charged from engine ? Do you have solar

 

[Guigsy]

My 2020 van isn't lithium aware. I've put in a new battery, replaced the AC charger and switched my Victron solar charger to lithium. I'm still using the original DC charging. It has been fine for the past year, but I only get about 18 amps. I've got a B2B / DC-DC charger sitting in a box, not got around to fitting it yet.

 

[Lenny HB]

Have a word with RogerIvy he may have them in stock by then.

 

[kingoftheroad]

How is your present battery charged from engine ? Do you have solar

I have a LifeP04 230ah and I have a 150w solar panel, the battery was installed by Ecotree last year and they set my Electrobloc to the correct settings, they actually said, they dont think I will need a DC to D C charger for my requirements and to see how I get on with it, but after reading some of the comments on here, I'm going to fit one, I'm just hoping I'm ok to get through this two month holiday without it, without doing any long term damage

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[kingoftheroad]

Have a word with RogerIvy he may have them in stock by then.

I will do Lenny, but I dont think any of the supplier's can give a guaranteed answer i would receive it for the 19th April unfortunately and if I pre-order it and it comes after the 19th April, there will be no one home to receive the delivery, I was happily getting all set to fit it, but noticed the delivery dates keep getting pushed back.

 

[kingoftheroad]

My 2020 van isn't lithium aware. I've put in a new battery, replaced the AC charger and switched my Victron solar charger to lithium. I'm still using the original DC charging. It has been fine for the past year, but I only get about 18 amps. I've got a B2B / DC-DC charger sitting in a box, not got around to fitting it yet.

If I'm correct, from what I gather, there's a couple of negatives to not fitting one, long term, it doesn't do your battery much good, but secondly it can damage your alternator, that's the one I'm worried about over this two month break, but it seems some people dont fit them at all and have no trouble, so am I being just over cautious?
The title states could I damage my battery, but I'm mainly worried about the alternator

 

[AdrianChen]

If the battery's app can show you the amps passing through your system you can decide if the alternator is safe, I suspect that since Oaktree were happy with the install there must be some element (cables etc) limiting the current to something sensible.

Not elegant perhaps, and I would fit the B2B some point, In the meantime you could pull the fuse for the longer journeys.

 

[oldiesontour]

I'm not fully familiar with you set up but very very unlikely to affect alternator...they just push out as much as they can Upto their capacity.Would assume battery has a BMS which(should) protect it.With wrong charge parameters you may(probably) not be charging efficiently/fully

 

[Guigsy]

I believe there are rare cases where the electricals of the van mean plugging a lithium straight into the alternator circuit causes a massive draw that can fry things.

I think because mine is controlled via the Elektroblock which is battery type aware (although just not lithium), it is current limiting. If I were to drive all day, every day, then it might end up overcharging the battery and do damage longer term. In the next few weeks I want to do something about installing a B2B. But as you mentioned, some people just don't see the need.

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[kingoftheroad]

If the battery's app can show you the amps passing through your system you can decide if the alternator is safe, I suspect that since Oaktree were happy with the install there must be some element (cables etc) limiting the current to something sensible.

Not elegant perhaps, and I would fit the B2B some point, In the meantime you could pull the fuse for the longer journeys.

Good point re- check on amps through battery app, will check it out for piece of mind

 

[kingoftheroad]

I believe there are rare cases where the electricals of the van mean plugging a lithium straight into the alternator circuit causes a massive draw that can fry things.

I think because mine is controlled via the Elektroblock which is battery type aware (although just not lithium), it is current limiting. If I were to drive all day, every day, then it might end up overcharging the battery and do damage longer term. In the next few weeks I want to do something about installing a B2B. But as you mentioned, some people just don't see the need.

 

[Bessy765]

We have 200 amps lithium, 700 watts of solar and a Victron 12/2000/80 inverter charger. On a Burstner (2019) fiat heavy chassis non smart alternator. We have no B2B charger. The nstaller stated it is not required, he guarantees the whole system for 5 years and the batteries for 10. When driving looking at the app as the batteries reach 90% the charging rate drops and when 100% there is no charge going to the batteries. We have had this system now over 4 years and 26,300 miles works perfectly.

 

[kingoftheroad]

I believe there are rare cases where the electricals of the van mean plugging a lithium straight into the alternator circuit causes a massive draw that can fry things.

I think because mine is controlled via the Elektroblock which is battery type aware (although just not lithium), it is current limiting. If I were to drive all day, every day, then it might end up overcharging the battery and do damage longer term. In the next few weeks I want to do something about installing a B2B. But as you mentioned, some people just don't see the need.

mine via the vans Electrobloc also, from the info so far, I'm leaning towards, it being ok for this holiday, we travel about, but drive for no more than couple of hours to each place

 

[oldiesontour]

Surely the BMS should prevent overcharge.
The alternator will in the event of a low SB kick out it's maximum be it 90 or160amp so it is safe as is original wiring ,the current regulator to lb will restrict current to lb it can't take more than is there.It is the charge profile that differs twixt lithium and lead

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[kingoftheroad]

We have 200 amps lithium, 700 watts of solar and a Victron 12/2000/80 inverter charger. On a Burstner (2019) fiat heavy chassis non smart alternator. We have no B2B charger. The nstaller stated it is not required, he guarantees the whole system for 5 years and the batteries for 10. When driving looking at the app as the batteries reach 90% the charging rate drops and when 100% there is no charge going to the batteries. We have had this system now over 4 years and 26,300 miles works perfectly.

Great, thanks for the info on your set up, I'm still going to try and purchase one prior to this holiday, because I do want to fit one. However, if I fail to get one, I'm now getting a bit more confident I'll be ok in the interim, with quite a few, like yourself managing quite clearly without one

 

[kingoftheroad]

Surely the BMS should prevent overcharge.
The alternator will in the event of a low SB kick out it's maximum be it 90 or160amp so it is safe as is original wiring ,the current regulator to lb will restrict current to lb it can't take more than is there.It is the charge profile that differs twixt lithium and lead

Understand, thanks, was worried about the alternator overheating etc, but it seems I'm worrying unnecessarily for the sake of this holiday period

 

[oldiesontour]

Just a thought other B2Bs are readily available

 

[kingoftheroad]

Just a thought other B2Bs are readily available

Your correct of course, did think of this, but got my heart set on the new 50amp Victron, its getting excellent reviews, so would like to stick to this choice if possible, especially now I'm hearing that I should be ok to install it after the hols

 

[Bessy765]

The only provision from my installer was not to run the engine when stationary for more than 15 mins just to charge the batteries. When driving off if the
Batteries are low often see 80 plus amps going in.

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[AdrianChen]

I believe there are rare cases where the electricals of the van mean plugging a lithium straight into the alternator circuit causes a massive draw that can fry things.

I think because mine is controlled via the Elektroblock which is battery type aware (although just not lithium), it is current limiting. If I were to drive all day, every day, then it might end up overcharging the battery and do damage longer term. In the next few weeks I want to do something about installing a B2B. But as you mentioned, some people just don't see the need.

There were quite a few reported on boaty forums in the early days of lithium being adopted in sailing boats 20-25years ago? These were often retrofitted (and self built - so called drop ins didn't exist) by owners into boats with older (tired?) alternators with less than 100amp output designed to maintain the engines 75ah start battery, and with tiny engine rooms that can get very hot with the engine running, and without the air flow you get in a van.

Scenario

After a pleasant night on anchor and now with flat batteries, the engine is started and the boat trolled slowly down the harbour at little more than tickover, keeping the cooling fan on the front of the alternator at ineffective revs. Meanwhile the alternator regulator would be pushing out 14+volts and the Lithium taking all it can get from the 60amp alt, thus, pushing the field current up nice and high with little or no cooling from the engine rooms 50degree air wafting through from the fan, then at some point quite soon after getting the anchor up the 10year old varnish on the windings would melt or the solder......... and pop!

There were all sorts of Alts being used, some with decent systems to protect them, but many just dropped the output voltage a bit to lower the battery acceptance rate thus temperature, effective with lead acid perhaps, but lithium?

Not sure but I think most alternators built in the last 20years for vans are more robust and higher output (twin internal fans and better regulators), and whilst this is no cause for ignoring the risk, I think sometimes we become slaves to the myths and legends of the early adopters!

 

[kingoftheroad]

There were quite a few reported on boaty forums in the early days of lithium being adopted in sailing boats 20-25years ago? These were often retrofitted (and self built - so called drop ins didn't exist) by owners into boats with older (tired?) alternators with less than 100amp output designed to maintain the engines 75ah start battery, and with tiny engine rooms that can get very hot with the engine running, and without the air flow you get in a van.

Scenario

After a pleasant night on anchor and now with flat batteries, the engine is started and the boat trolled slowly down the harbour at little more than tickover, keeping the cooling fan on the front of the alternator at ineffective revs. Meanwhile the alternator regulator would be pushing out 14+volts and the Lithium taking all it can get from the 60amp alt, thus, pushing the field current up nice and high with little or no cooling from the engine rooms 50degree air wafting through from the fan, then at some point quite soon after getting the anchor up the 10year old varnish on the windings would melt or the solder......... and pop!

There were all sorts of Alts being used, some with decent systems to protect them, but many just dropped the output voltage a bit to lower the battery acceptance rate thus temperature, effective with lead acid perhaps, but lithium?

Not sure but I think most alternators built in the last 20years for vans are more robust and higher output (twin internal fans and better regulators), and whilst this is no cause for ignoring the risk, I think sometimes we become slaves to the myths and legends of the early adopters!

Fantastic, explained well, thankyou I'm leaning all the time

 

[kingoftheroad]

The only provision from my installer was not to run the engine when stationary for more than 15 mins just to charge the batteries. When driving off if the
Batteries are low often see 80 plus amps going in.

Noted, thanks, I'll take this into account

 

[Lenny HB]

I think because mine is controlled via the Elektroblock which is battery type aware (although just not lithium), it is current limiting. If I were to drive all day, every day, then it might end up overcharging the battery and do damage longer term. In the next few weeks I want to do something about installing a B2B. But as you mentioned, some people just don't see the need.

Inside the Elektroblock it is just a standard split charge relay nothing fancy controlling the charge.

Surely the BMS should prevent overcharge.
The alternator will in the event of a low SB kick out it's maximum be it 90 or160amp so it is safe as is original wiring ,the current regulator to lb will restrict current to lb it can't take more than is there.It is the charge profile that differs twixt lithium and lead

BMS should be treated as a last resort and should not be used as a way of controlling the charge. The settings in the BMS are often a maximum to protect the battery and are often too high for everyday use.

 

[oldiesontour]

Inside the Elektroblock it is just a standard split charge relay nothing fancy controlling the charge.

BMS should be treated as a last resort and should not be used as a way of controlling the charge. The settings in the BMS are often a maximum to protect the battery and are often too high for everyday use.

Fully agree BMS should be last resort ,as I said In earlier post not familiar with set up...If electroblock is just a split charge relay I would suggest not a good idea to use direct to lithium

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[kingoftheroad]

Inside the Elektroblock it is just a standard split charge relay nothing fancy controlling the charge.

BMS should be treated as a last resort and should not be used as a way of controlling the charge. The settings in the BMS are often a maximum to protect the battery and are often too high for everyday use.

I've viewed your comments to funsters issues in the past and can see you clearly know your electrics Lenny and would appreciate your input.
Ultimately, I would like to fit the new 50amp Victron charger before going away this April. However, if I cannot get one in time, based on my current set up, would you say I'm at risk of damaging the alternator?

 

[AdrianChen]

I've viewed your comments to funsters issues in the past and can see you clearly know your electrics Lenny and would appreciate your input.
Ultimately, I would like to fit the new 50amp Victron charger before going away this April. However, if I cannot get one in time, based on my current set up, would you say I'm at risk of damaging the alternator?

Out of interest how far have you travelled since the battery was fitted?

 

[kingoftheroad]

Out of interest how far have you travelled since the battery was fitted?

Hi
The journey home from Oaktree motorhomes and one other trip, overnight to Whitby, under two hours drive each way

 

[Lenny HB]

I've viewed your comments to funsters issues in the past and can see you clearly know your electrics Lenny and would appreciate your input.
Ultimately, I would like to fit the new 50amp Victron charger before going away this April. However, if I cannot get one in time, based on my current set up, would you say I'm at risk of damaging the alternator?

You have a Hymer so it probably has an uprated alternator of 160 amps so should be OK. More danger of overloading the relay in the EBL but that is probably rated at 70 amps so should be OK.

 

[LithiumConvert]

Will the standard fusing in the Hymer take those sorts of currents?