Computers for the enthusiast

[hilldweller]

Numbers sold... Absolutely not, that's not the goal.. I reckon we will need to wait 10 years or so. Youngsters of 7-10 years is where I see this starting. So 8 years from now first batch into uni then 3-4 years. But in the meantime I reckon we will see some interesting projects.

Fingers crossed then, so on my 80th birthday I'll be asking you if it was a winner.

I hope the answer is yes.

If it's no it won't be Raspberry that has failed, it will be our education system.

 

[GJH]

The problem with todays development environments is you not only have to learn the language, you have to learn the OS and an API. You can't just load up basic and start writing. For example in the old days basic could do everything the computer could. Now you need to learn basic which isn't all that basic as it is OO based now, then you need to learn an API such as .NET and to do serious stuff you need to learn the OS calls etc. Then you need to learn a graphics library such as openGL.

I disagree completely, Karl. The problem with current schools teaching is that it is too easy for people to start messing about with Excel, Access &c and think they are doing the job properly.

The old days you talk about aren't the old days, just the days when Basic was bundled with the newly emerging small computers as a sales tool because, without it, most potential buyers wouldn't have been able to use the products.

In the real old days we learned about the way in which the machines worked and how to program to use hardware resources effectively. There is nothing wrong with having to learn how to interact with the OS because unless one knows how to do so properly then writing efficient - and error free - code is a hit & miss affair.

Software written for commercial use is "serious stuff" and needs to be created by people who have the necessary skills, just as buildings, vehicles and machinery need to be created by people who have the necessary skills.

It's fine for people to use the likes of Basic and MS Office tools, with little understanding of what lies behind the language, just as it is fine for people to do their own decorating and minor repairs on their houses but that's as far as it goes.

 

[Taran_Las]

Very interesting debate. Both sides have valid arguments. :thumb:

 

[Gromett]

I think you are missing my point..

We need to get kids interested in computers at a basic level. ie programming, making them do real things not just as consumers. I believe starting foundation level programming at a young age will give them an important leg up. They can learn how to use word etc in their own time it's not rocket science.

By the old days I mean at the start of the home computer revolution. I was there. I am one of the youngsters of that generation who were self taught and went on to work in the games industry writing 6510 and 68K assembler for commercial games. I have since worked (briefly) in micro controllers. I have been involved pretty much none stop with computers since the early 80's and from the mid 80's commercially. None of that would have been possible without the home computer revolution. If I had been born 10 years ago I probably wouldn't have got into computers at all.

I don't see this as anything but an introduction to programming which will get them started. When learning to drive you don't learn to drive well at the start you learn how to get the car going and stopping before going onto the other stuff and eventually becoming a safe driver. I see this as the essentials of computing learning how to get the vehicle around. If the kid then goes onto A Levels and Degree level he will then learn about quality of code etc.

In the real old days as you put it. Computers were much simpler. You could design a CPU on paper and build it using logic chips. Those days are long gone.... As part of my electronics BTEC we designed a cpu and built it then had to program it using toggle switches and leds. I much prefer todays computers.

At the moment kids are leaving school as technology consumers with no idea what lies behind those computers. By the time I left school at 15 I wrote asm for two instruction sets. I knew the number of cycles each instruction took. I knew how much I could get done in a raster line and could multiplex hardware sprites at the same time as timing the audio coprocessor. All this because I had access to a commodore PET and then a ZX81 at an early age.....

I am hoping that this simple device will get the kids interested at an early age at a basic level which can be built on throughout later schooling. Hopefully by the time they get to university they will not only have a passion they will have a good skillset which can have the rough edges taken off them.

I do understand what you are saying about good programming but getting the basics in place first is important.

 

[GJH]

No. We need to get kids interested in everything at a basic level, not just computers or whatever is sexy at the time.

There is nothing wrong with consumers having no idea what lies behind what they are consuming because it isn't necessary to understand everything about everything. Most people have no real idea, for instance, how crude oil is converted into various fuels and plastics but that doesn't stop them buying and using those products successfully.

Schools are there to provide pupils with a wide enough range of education to enable them to choose the employment path which is best suited to their talents. We need schools to re-focus so that they provide a wide range courses which everyone can take advantage of, whatever their talents, rather than hammering square pegs into round holes.

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[slobadoberbob]

I kind of agree with Graham on this

I can see both sides of the debate. But I think Graham has summed it up well.

Kids these days need to learn the basics.. where have all the engineers (future) gone.. where are the car mechanics, the plumbers, the basics of everything.. while we need to grab hold of tomorrow and the future and yes I accept the arguments on the cheap computer you can program I do feel we need to get back to basics.. do we need another thousand 'media studies' drop outs of Uni... now if it were engineers I would jump up and down and say great.. and before someone says not we do not need any more lawyers :Sad::Sad:

But we do need to get these kids to be able to read and write and do the basics. The world is not computer games.

Bob

 

[Gromett]

Graham and Bob. I whole heartedly agree with what you said on the last 2 posts. My problem is with the current so called ICT lessons which are a waste of time. These need replacing and that is what I thought this thread was all about not the whole education system oh:

If we are on about other lessons then I am sure it could be shaken up dramatically.

However this thread was about the Raspberry Pi so I stayed on topic

 

[Gromett]

Bob, just reread your post and I missed a point.

The Pi is not about writing games. It is about core programming skills and interfaces. The Gertboard alllows motors, switches, sensors, potentiometers and a myriad of other devices to be connected and easily controlled. The logical thought processes needed for programming are relevant to engineering and many of the other trade skills.

I don't see this as just a games programming introduction I see it as way of getting kids into all sorts of trades which rely on programming.

CNC machines and PLC's spring to mind, I am sure there are others.

 

[Jim]

We can't teach kids the basics of EVERYTHING. We should expose kids as much as we can but forcing everything on them is wrong. if they are really interested in a particular subject we should let them run with it, even if this means the exclusion of other topics. We need some of our kids to want to know why/how stuff works not just that it does. Not every kid wants to know about computers, but we should be giving every one the opportunity to get "interested' and if they are then that's good. Computers are going to play a massive part in everyones future. Almost every profession/industry (apart from maybe the oldest) in the world now relies heavily on them. That computers are "easy to use" is a result of the very clever/difficult/amazing programming by people that have been interested since they were kids. If those kids get interested on a £20 computer then its good for them and good for the country:thumb: