Cars suitable for towing

[JaG]

We have a 2009 Autotrail Cherokee 740SE with a 3 litre Auto engine/box. Weight 4000kg.
We want to tow a car now and then with an A frame, which we have all the required knowledge about. We have been quoted £1,020 for the bar with electronic braking.
What we want is ideas for a new car that we can tow and use as a family car. Also with a good spec.
We did pick one, a Suzuki Ignis SX5 but had to cancel when Suzuki said it cannot be towed on four wheels. They said it had to be either the two front or the two back.
We have shortlisted three, those being Seat Ibiza 1.6 xcellence diesel (1256kg).......Citreon C3 (1090kg).......Honda Jazz (1100kg).
Are we looking at the right cars, or are there better?
It has to be big enough to carry a big mobility scooter...and Benji of course.

 

[Mikeco]

Not according to dealers I could have down rated to 4000kg and still Gross train of 6000kg I instead opted to keep the 4500 and when towing keep weights of trailer and van down to keep within the Train.
all on same chassis no alterations
sorry my original post was a bit of a mess it looked ok until I posted and then it all went higgled de piggely.

Okay, so the converters decided that the gross vehicle weight is 4.5 tonnes and that it could tow 1.5 tonnes making a train weight of 6 tonnes. Downplating is an odd one as the trainweight stays the same but the chassis is still only capable of towing 1.5 tons. If it could tow 1.750 tonnes then the trainweight would have been 4.5 plus 1.75 so 6.25.
Finished now on this one.

 

[Speve]

Just taken this from Al-Ko Leaflet
Can I tow using a motorhome?
All vehicles with an AL-KO Chassis are approved for use with a trailer.
If the motorhome has a factory fitted towbar then all requirements will have been taken into account and you will be able to tow. The maximum train weight will be shown in the vehicle documentation.
If you are retrofitting a towbar ensure you only use AL-KO Approved towbars, and that you indicate the vehicle type and chassis number when ordering.
NOTE: Towing a trailer reduced the maximum gradient capacity of the vehicle & suitable rear view mirrors must be fitted.
To achieve optimum results when towing a trailer, please observe the following points:
- Refer to base vehicle handbook for towing limits.
- Do not tow with the vehicle empty and the trailer loaded.
- Always locate heavy objects close to the axle and secure.
- Maximum speed limit is 60 mph.
- Ensure tyre pressure of vehicle is set at fully loaded setting.
- Use low gear when travelling downhill to avoid constant braking

 

[Speve]

Okay, so the converters decided that the gross vehicle weight is 4.5 tonnes and that it could tow 1.5 tonnes making a train weight of 6 tonnes. Downplating is an odd one as the trainweight stays the same but the chassis is still only capable of towing 1.5 tons. If it could tow 1.750 tonnes then the trainweight would have been 4.5 plus 1.75 so 6.25.
Finished now on this one.

Sorry but I think you are wrong See my post#62

Vehicle types and product categories | AL-KO

Regardless of whether you have a caravan or commercial trailer: you’ll be in safe hands with lightweight chassis and suspension components from

www.alko-tech.com

 

[Mikeco]

Sorry but I think you are wrong See my post#62

Don’t think so, all that says is that you can tow a trailer with an Alko chassis, does not say how heavy, in fact it mentions the train weight as the guidance. The downplated trainweight is fiction.

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[JaG]

Our new motorhome was downrated to 3,500kg, which left only 244kg to MGW. It is now being replated to 4,000kg. I will ask the dealer to send me the details on the plate tomorrow and post on here to rekindle the interesting back and forth interpretations.

 

[bigtwin]

Okay, so the converters decided that the gross vehicle weight is 4.5 tonnes and that it could tow 1.5 tonnes making a train weight of 6 tonnes. Downplating is an odd one as the trainweight stays the same but the chassis is still only capable of towing 1.5 tons. If it could tow 1.750 tonnes then the trainweight would have been 4.5 plus 1.75 so 6.25.
Finished now on this one.

This is your assumption and comes back to our earlier discussion on what the limiting factor is for determining the max train weight; structure, or braking. In the absence of definitive information on this front, your assumption will remain unproven.

You can be sure that if there was a safety issue (risk of overloading/overstressing the vehicle) the manufacturers would be making this clear.

Ian

 

[Speve]

looking at this section I would take documentation to be plates ours are plated gvw 4500 gross train 6000 and although I agree with your theory that the extra above Gvw is only 1500 it states you can tow to the max train weight Shown although I concede it’s a bit woolly?
All vehicles with an AL-KO Chassis are approved for use with a trailer.
If the motorhome has a factory fitted towbar then all requirements will have been taken into account and you will be able to tow. The maximum train weight will be shown in the vehicle documentation.

 

[Mikeco]

This is your assumption and comes back to our earlier discussion on what the limiting factor is for determining the max train weight; structure, or braking. In the absence of definitive information on this front, your assumption will remain unproven.

You can be sure that if there was a safety issue (risk of overloading/overstressing the vehicle) the manufacturers would be making this clear.

Ian

It is not an assumption, I am quoting facts produced by the manufacturers who are quite clear on what you can tow.
Definitely off to watch the golf now.

 

[Speve]

Here is Gov.UK paragraph on towing :
Where the sum of the maximum plated weights of the towing vehicle and of the trailer added together exceed the plated GCW of the towing vehicle, this is not a problem as long as the ‘actual’ weights of the vehicle and trailer (which may not be fully laden at the time) do not exceed the plated GCW

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[bigtwin]

It is not an assumption, I am quoting facts produced by the manufacturers who are quite clear on what you can tow.
Definitely off to watch the golf now.

You‘ll be back! ?

Ian ?

 

[Speve]

My take on it is if the Ducato commercial van can tow up to 3000 kg that is no different to a Motorhome in fact I believe a Motorhome would probably be better as it would be heavier to provide better stability, so could tow easily up to max but converters allow a wide margin below the Fiat base vehicle. Although the engines would be up to towing more than 1500kg with the upgraded disc brakes all round on the maxi chassis plus a braked trailer.?

 

[Jonno1103]

It says in the manual 1040kg however, if you have not used your 744kg payload you can add it to the weight of the vehicle. The towbar is an Armitage

His payload is 650kg max as his MIRO is 3350 on a 4000 kg alko chassis but when you take the 50kg engine upgrade and 31kg awning (SE pack) into consideration the payload is 569kg. He'd lose another 10kg if the optional 85w solar panel was also fitted.

 

[JaG]

My take on it is if the Ducato commercial van can tow up to 3000 kg that is no different to a Motorhome in fact I believe a Motorhome would probably be better as it would be heavier to provide better stability, so could tow easily up to max but converters allow a wide margin below the Fiat base vehicle. Although the engines would be up to towing more than 1500kg with the upgraded disc brakes all round on the maxi chassis plus a braked trailer.?

The handbook says the limit is 1040kg

 

[JaG]

His payload is 650kg max as his MIRO is 3350 on a 4000 kg alko chassis but when you take the 50kg engine upgrade and 31kg awning (SE pack) into consideration the payload is 569kg. He'd lose another 10kg if the optional 85w solar panel was also fitted.

Yes it does have 31kg, solar panel and also has Dometic Air Con, Sterling B2B and Maxview Satellite dish. Looks like we are well eating into the 744kg allowance already. It will be straight on the weighbridge on the way home on 24th October I think.

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[Mikeco]

My take on it is if the Ducato commercial van can tow up to 3000 kg that is no different to a Motorhome in fact I believe a Motorhome would probably be better as it would be heavier to provide better stability, so could tow easily up to max but converters allow a wide margin below the Fiat base vehicle. Although the engines would be up to towing more than 1500kg with the upgraded disc brakes all round on the maxi chassis plus a braked trailer.?

The base vehicle is usually not all Fiat though, in most cases it’s just the cab and two front wheels, the rest is probably a lightweight Alko chassis, absolutely no comparison at all.

 

[bigtwin]

The handbook says the limit is 1040kg

Which handbook? The base vehicle (e.g. Fiat) or the converter’s handbook?

Can you post an extract of the text?

Ian

 

[Speve]

Mikeco apologies for disputing facts, I bow to your superior knowledge you are correct here is extract from my Fiat handbook.it does have a picture of a vehicle plate however I can’t copy it.

WEIGHTS AND LOADS To identify the weights and loads for your vehicle, refer to the plate shown in fig. 228 and described in the “Identification data plate” chapter or refer to the vehicle registration certificate showing the type-approved weights (for markets, where provided) 228 E Maximum permitted weight of fully laden vehicle (GVW). F Maximum permitted weight of the vehicle (GVW) fully laden plus trailer. If there is no value in the field or if there is a dash, it means that the vehicle cannot tow G Maximum permitted weight on first axle (front). H Maximum permitted weight on second axle (rear). 240 To calculate the towable weight with a braked trailer, take the difference between values F and E shown on the plate. E.g.: F=6000 kg -E=3500 kg Braked trailer=2500 kg IMPORTANT Do not exceed the given trailer and towable weights. IMPORTANT Comply with the vehicle towing capacities. The tables show the towable weight for engine version
?

 

[JaG]

Which handbook? The base vehicle (e.g. Fiat) or the converter’s handbook?

Can you post an extract of the text?

Ian

This is from the Vehicle Manual

 

[JaG]

I have been in touch with the showroom where the motorhome is and the reply I have got about the Plate is: Replacement plate only shows max weight of 3900KG. However brochure states GTW of 5040KG so you are good 1140KG trailer.

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[tonyidle]

Doesn't matter how it is done once modified,unless it has a new CoC, it is illegal & also breaches the anti-tuning directive by being 'modified'

Not in the UK?

 

[bigtwin]

This is from the Vehicle ManualView attachment 338349

That’s interesting. In most cases the stated maximum towing limit is effectively MTW - MGW. However it also states that the maximum towing limits for the ALKO variants are estimates only. Furthermore, it also states (consistent with the information I posted in the .gov link) that if the towing vehicle is not running at its MGW, the unused load can be utilised to safely, and legitimately, tow a load that exceeds the MTW - MGW.

In conclusion, in your specific case it appears (from the converters data) to be the case that your towing limit is, coincidentally, the same as MTW - MGW. It is also clear that, for this manufacturer at least, the maximum towing weight is not necessarily MTW - MGW thus debunking the myth that the maximum towing weight can ALWAYS be determined from MTW - MGW.

Ian

 

[bigtwin]

I have been in touch with the showroom where the motorhome is and the reply I have got about the Plate is: Replacement plate only shows max weight of 3900KG. However brochure states GTW of 5040KG so you are good 1140KG trailer.

That seems very odd. I’d expect the MTW to be shown on the plate.

I have been in touch with the showroom where the motorhome is and the reply I have got about the Plate is: Replacement plate only shows max weight of 3900KG. However brochure states GTW of 5040KG so you are good 1140KG trailer.

Agreed - IF you are running the MH at 3900Kg. However, I’m not so sure about basing it on weights from two different sources.

Ian

 

[Theonlysue]

I though A frames were a problem in Europe and best to tailor the car??

 

[Speve]

I think that a lot of the info is down to how you interpret it??
i know in my case that 1500 kg is Hymer towing weight so by having a slightly heavier trailer is against converters advice however I’m not exceeding the GTW and am happy with the performance when towing and braking. I’m not breaking the law.
but that’s a personal choice and I suppose if we had a problem within warranty the dealer could use that as an excuse not to honour it?
and from now on I will certainly be checking tow bar connections to chassis etc regularly.?

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[Speve]

Here’s a screen shot of Fiat Ducato handbook page that I couldn’t show earlier.

 

[JaG]

Here’s a screen shot of Fiat Ducato handbook page that I couldn’t show earlier.View attachment 338379

Thank you. That is really useful info..

 

[bigtwin]

Thank you. That is really useful info..

Not sure why that’s useful to you; you don't have a panel van conversion - you have a coach built so your Autotrail data takes precedence.

Ian

 

[JaG]

Not sure why that’s useful to you; you don't have a panel van conversion - you have a coach built so your Autotrail data takes precedence.

Ian

Oops. Thought it was for the one we are getting.

 

[Speve]

Not sure why that’s useful to you; you don't have a panel van conversion - you have a coach built so your Autotrail data takes precedence.

Ian

JaG That info is from my 2018 Hymer B678DL A class not a panel van conversion so it would likely relevant as it is on a Fiat ducato 2.3 180 comformatic.??
as its on Al-Ko maxi chassis with Fiat cab front end Which is what you will have except you will have original cab bodywork, whereas ours is just dash and engine and front end chassis.?

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[bigtwin]

JaG That info is from my 2018 Hymer B678DL A class not a panel van conversion so it would likely relevant as it is on a Fiat ducato 2.3 180 comformatic.??
as its on Al-Ko maxi chassis with Fiat cab front end.

Your post said it was from a Ducato in which case it wouldn’t be relevant. Might be worth clarifying if it is from the Fiat or the Hymer handbook.

Ian