Can someone explain Leisure Batteries to me!

[Pausim]

Add to that the cost comparison with lifepo4; you can buy 3 of these for 1 lithium, and they do not need a BMS, it’s almost a no-brainer.

I do not understand the “and they do not need a BMS” bit. What is the disadvantage of inbuilt circuitry that protects from over voltage, over discharge and protects the cells. All types of lead acid battery are also vulnerable to over voltage, over discharge and cell damage but they do not have any protection.

 

[PhilandMena]

I do not understand the “and they do not need a BMS” bit. What is the disadvantage of inbuilt circuitry that protects from over voltage, over discharge and protects the cells. All types of lead acid battery are also vulnerable to over voltage, over discharge and cell damage but they do not have any protection.

I think, if you don't mind me having a stab at the answer. You don't have a choice with the lithium, its part of the battery and no doubt adds to the price.

 

[Itsmcb]

I think, if you don't mind me having a stab at the answer. You don't have a choice with the lithium, its part of the battery and no doubt adds to the price.

And also something else to go wrong

 

[pat12]

If it doesn't have removable screw caps for topping up the liquid.

Enhanced Flooded Battery technology details here:

VARTA® EFB (enhanced flooded battery) technology: superior reliability and performance every day

VARTA® EFB (enhanced flooded battery) technology for cars and commercial vehicles: Outstanding technology for your requirements, manufactured in Europe.

www.varta-automotive.com

Briefly, the fibreglass mat in an AGM battery soaks up the liquid and fills the space between the plates. It also stops the paste that forms on the plate from falling off and being lost. This loss is a major factor in degradation in flooded batteries.

In an EFB battery there is a thin jacket of fleece round each plate, which holds the paste and stops it flaking off due to vibration, heat effects etc. There is still lots of liquid sulfuric acid between the plates.

Great thanks! so just to clarify the EFB is just an enhancement to a normal lead acid battery. I'm ok to replace with EFB in my standard setp without any additional wiring or charging requirements??

Appolgies for all the questions i'd rather not fry anything.

 

[AgeingAndrew]

I do not understand the “and they do not need a BMS” bit. What is the disadvantage of inbuilt circuitry that protects from over voltage, over discharge and protects the cells. All types of lead acid battery are also vulnerable to over voltage, over discharge and cell damage but they do not have any protection.

Additional active componets add to the system complexity and add additional points of failure. Lead acid is nice and simple, just a chemical reaction. A lifepo4 cannot or definitely should not be operated without the added complexity of a BMS to prevent damage. Without a BMS you will destroy a lithium battery. It's that simple.

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[autorouter]

Great thanks! so just to clarify the EFB is just an enhancement to a normal lead acid battery. I'm ok to replace with EFB in my standard setp without any additional wiring or charging requirements??

Yes, I think the requirements are practically the same. Your charger (CB -516) is a multi-stage smart charger, 16A max, which would be OK with the standard lead-acid battery settings, not the gel settings.

One thing not mentioned so far is, it's best to try to charge the battery to 100% at least every week or two. Batteries left partially charged for several weeks become 'sulphated' and lose capacity.

These EFB batteries have other enhancements, like a mechanism for stirring the liquid acid by vehicle movement. This avoids the need to periodically 'equalise' the cells which stirs up the stratified acid. So no real need for any equalisation cycle.

 

[pat12]

I don't know where you are based but I have a 82AH Exide gel battery sat in my garage, having replaced it with lithiums. I'm near Portsmouth if you want to make me an offer I can't refuse. No horses heads though.

Thanks for the kind offer cyberyacht, i'm in Shoreham so not too far but i think i'm probably going to replace with a similar Ah as i have, mostly because i have no idea what i need

 

[pat12]

Yes, I think the requirements are practically the same. Your charger (CB -516) is a multi-stage smart charger, 16A max, which would be OK with the standard lead-acid battery settings, not the gel settings.

hehe its straight in at the deep end with this stuff for me

Sounds like my charger has different profiles for gel and standard batteries. However on the front there is only an on/off switch, Is the profile switching automatic or is there somthing else to do?

As a curve ball, was looking at just one of these: https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/exide/es2400/

The seem to have a lot of qualities but look very heavy - might have to leave one of the kids at home

I'd read (possibly on here) some people advocating one battery over two

I'm happy to spend a bit to get the safest option. After a bit of research i'm slightly nervous about buying anything cheap as the batteries are under the seat which forms the front bed that the kids sleep on.

 

[autorouter]

Sounds like my charger has different profiles for gel and standard batteries. However on the front there is only an on/off switch, Is the profile switching automatic or is there somthing else to do?

According to the manual, there is a slide switch inside. It looks like there's two screws, and the cover comes off. This only needs to be done rarely, ie whenever the battery technology is changed. The various fuses are under that cover too. Note, there's live wires in there, so best to disconnect the mains hookup before removing the cover.

In case you need it, the manual is available at https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/user/downloads/CBE Switch Mode Battery Charger instruction manual.pdf
Don't panic, there's a section in English after the Italian bit.

 

[pat12]

yup RTFM! Thanks once again autorouter, and everyone else.

Think this forum will be the best £20 i've spent for a while!

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[Scully]

Thanks Guys!

something like this? https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/exide/es1200/

I like the fact seem better for internal use but wow they are 40KG each! My charger manual mentions gel batteries but not much specifically.

was also looking at something like this https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/yuasa/l36-efb/

I assume from what you say i'd want to vent these to the outside.

I'm still a little confused about the number of amp hours i need. I actually don't spend too much time off the hookup and the batery only really powers the lights - as far as i know i can't run the fridge off the batteries.

Currently its 2 x 110Ah but wondeing if its worth dropping to a pair of these to get a better battery?

LED95 Varta Professional Dual Purpose EFB Leisure Battery 95Ah (930095085)

LED95 VARTA Professional Dual Purpose EFB Leisure Battery <i>Innovation with Purpose, Premium Experience, Powerful History</i> VARTA was founded in 1887 Germany, and was established fully in 1904 by delivering the first electric vehicle battery, famously driven by Thomas Edison. Soon after...

www.tayna.co.uk

Thanks again.

If buying from Tanya, there's a 10% discount if you are in the CAMC. They do look for proof of current membership.

 

[pat12]

Ok sanity check please!! Is my reasoning right on this....

If i have two 110Ah standard lead acid batteries but (i now know!) i can only depleate them by 50%

so i have 220Ah total / 50% = 110Ah

If replace with a gel battery of 140Ah that i can run down to 20%...

I have 140Ah / 80% = 112Ah

Which is the same right? or have i got the wrong end of the stick?

Thank you!

 

[Jamesh]

Ok sanity check please!! Is my reasoning right on this....

If i have two 110Ah standard lead acid batteries but (i now know!) i can only depleate them by 50%

so i have 210Ah total / 50% = 110Ah

If replace with a gel battery of 140Ah that i can run down to 20%...

I have 140Ah / 80% = 112Ah

Which is the same right? or have i got the wrong end of the stick?

Thank you!

Sounds about right?
What's the price difference?

 

[pat12]

cool thanks James.

its about £300 inc delivery for so a bit more but it really considering doing it for saftey reasons and the fact i've proved i'm pretty bad at battery management

 

[Rick Axon]

Has anyone any knowledge of lead crystal leisure batteries? They seem a viable alternative to Lithium batteries. Here are a couple of links to websites I found:

Lead Crystal batteries • Enix Power Solutions

Lead Crystal batteries are a superior solution which offer longer life-cycle and numerous other advantages over more common battery technologies.

www.enix-power-solutions.co.uk

Lead Crystal Batteries | Allbatteries.co.uk

Buy your Lead Crystal Battery on Allbatteries.co.uk. Lead Crystal Batteries offer Improved Lifespan & Cycle Performance. In Stock - Large Quantities Available. Secure Payment. Shop Now!

www.allbatteries.co.uk

Rick

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[Pausim]

Has anyone any knowledge of lead crystal leisure batteries? They seem a viable alternative to Lithium batteries. Here are a couple of links to websites I found:

Lead Crystal batteries • Enix Power Solutions

Lead Crystal batteries are a superior solution which offer longer life-cycle and numerous other advantages over more common battery technologies.

www.enix-power-solutions.co.uk

Lead Crystal Batteries | Allbatteries.co.uk

Buy your Lead Crystal Battery on Allbatteries.co.uk. Lead Crystal Batteries offer Improved Lifespan & Cycle Performance. In Stock - Large Quantities Available. Secure Payment. Shop Now!

www.allbatteries.co.uk

Rick

They make them sound very good but their battery comparison table is full of inaccuracies. For example LiFePO4 batteries do not cost 5-6 times more than gel ones and the lead crystal price for a 100Ah battery in the Allbatteries link looks comparable to a lithium one and twice as much as gel. In other words the table is marketing bovine faeces. Also they are very heavy.

 

[uzsnowdrop]

If it helps anyone else reading this , I lost it at post 2 , electrics eh…

 

[autorouter]

Has anyone any knowledge of lead crystal leisure batteries? They seem a viable alternative to Lithium batteries. Here are a couple of links to websites I found:

It seems very difficult to find any information on the technology. That fact alone is a red flag to me. Here's what I can find.

The plates are lead, alloyed with calcium and selenium. Pure lead is too weak for battery plates, so it has to be alloyed with something. Calcium and selenium are used in other batteries too, calcium is quite popular.

Between the plates there is a 'microporous glass fibre mat', ie AGM technology. This absorbs the liquid acid, still allowing electric current to flow. The mat supports the lead oxide that is required on one of the plates, to stop it flaking off due to vibration etc.

Between the plates, presumably between the glass mat layers, is what they call SiO2 crystals. It is well known that small SiO2 crystals are what sand is made of. Presumably suitably purified so no other bits are present. The acid will be absorbed by the sand too, and the gaps will allow electric current to pass.

One advantage I can see is that there are no large spaces where lead sulfate crystals can grow to a large size, too big to be converted back to lead/lead oxide plate material. So degradation due to long-term sulfation is less of a problem.

I can't see any obvious way that higher current charge/discharge is possible. Also I can't find any actual data and graphs for the performance, it's all hand-waving and spin so far.

 

[pat12]

Right buying two of these....

ES900 Exide G80 Marine Leisure Equipment GEL Battery 80Ah

ES900 Exide Marine & Leisure Equipment GEL Battery Exide are one of the leading battery companies in the world and have been delivering quality in the sector for more than 130 years! Exide has introduced its next generation of car/light vehicle batteries. The range is developed in Exide’s...

www.tayna.co.uk

Gives 160Ah

and works out at the same price of buying one of these 140Ah

ES1600 Exide G140 Marine Leisure Equipment GEL Battery 140Ah

ES1600 Exide Marine & Leisure Equipment GEL Battery Exide are one of the leading battery companies in the world and have been delivering quality in the sector for more than 130 years! Exide has introduced its next generation of car/light vehicle batteries. The range is developed in Exide’s...

www.tayna.co.uk

The main factor for buying one was i could add another at a later date but looking at it they are 47Kgs!! so adding a second would be interesting!

As it stands i dont have an inverter (least none of the plugs work when on battery) i don't watch the tv and rarely off EHU so 160ah is probably overkill - but i'm hoping to just replace these once and be done for a while!

Gosh longest purchase procrastination for a while

 

[Hoovie]

They have no track record as such apart from Pill loving them, not heard of anyone having fitted one in a Motorhome.

I know personally of lots of people fitting Lead Carbons in Motorhomes, including specifically those Leochs

I had 645Ah of AGM Lead Carbon in my last Self Build - worked very well in that all-electric (no LPG) van. Lead Carbon batteries are extremely popular in the telecoms industry and the features that makes them work well there are very applicable to Motorhoming .... quicker recharge rates then plain Lead Acid, higher recharge current, deeper depth of discharge (Victron dub their Lead Carbon batteries 'immortal') and no damage if left at a PSOC, which is ideal in a camper/motorhome that is rarely on hookup and relying on alternator or solar to recharge.

My current Motorhome has had 300Ah of AGM Lead Carbon installed for the last 18 months (plus 100Ah of Lithium for around a year) and no problems.

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[Richard n Ann]

don't watch the tv and rarely off EHU so 160ah is probably overkill

Definitely overkill. You'd be ok with a 30ah car battery

 

[Hoovie]

Yep, they are relatively new but the lead-carbon technology has been around for a number of years, it is called Ultrabattery.
Increased charge efficiency is only one of its advantages over traditional lead-acid, for me its performance in a partial state of charge is the real advantage. Add to that the cost comparison with lifepo4; you can buy 3 of these for 1 lithium, and they do not need a BMS, it’s almost a no-brainer. Pity about the weight though.

Initially when I refitted my New-to-me Motorhome I was going to go Lithium, but when I did the maths, it didn't make sense. I ended up with 3 x 100AH Lead Carbons (chosen for all the reasons already mentioned) that were LESS than a single decent 100Ah Lithium Battery.
The charge speed and charge efficiency of Lithium is still a great benefit over ANY Lead based battery, including Lead Carbon, however. I added a 100Ah Lithium to the Battery Bank middle of last year and now I have the best of both worlds Main everyday work done by the Lithium, which means faster recharging over the lead with limited Scottish solar over, and the Lead Carbons are there when I need extended capacity over the cloudy times or more power if using electricity for cooking or water heating.
In the graph below, the top black line is the Lead Carbon bank SOC, and the green squiggly line is the Lithium Bank SOC.

 

[Jamesh]

cool thanks James.

its about £300 inc delivery for so a bit more but it really considering doing it for saftey reasons and the fact i've proved i'm pretty bad at battery management

Me too!
One of the benefits of my transit is that it has an additional second battery built in. Which powers my lights fridge too.
However m not too keen powering an inverter off it so might get another battery possibly a smaller power pack one to buffer an inverter??

 

[Hoovie]

And also something else to go wrong

It is indeed. I did a setup for someone who was doing an overland to Mongolia and one thing we deliberately did was to avoid Lithium due to the BMS. If it goes wrong, like any electronics can, the battery can be rendered useless and you will not find a suitable spare part in a random village in Asia (or Europe for that matter).
Go Lead and there is very little to go wrong in comparison - and if the lead battery DOES give up the ghost, a usable replacement WILL be found in the typical random village, even if it is somone selling you the one out of their truck
So in the case above, we went .... Lead Carbon, the best available low-tech Battery option.