Can someone explain Leisure Batteries to me!

[pat12]

So i got a motorhome in lockdown – was bought on a whim from a relative for a good (ish) deal. My wifes idea, i objected stongly but its turned out to be just about the best thing i ever bought.

Anyway long story short, because i know nothing about motorhomes i’ve screwed the leisure batteries.

They were not great to start with but basically i’ve run them flat on every trip and not charged them inbetween. who knew doh.

Now they run the internal lights for about 20 mins on a full charge

It has a pair of diamond Leisure 110ah batteries that look pretty cheap to me.

Initial research tells me i probably want AGMs but i think that because the van is 2011 the charger won’t give the additional voltage required (or the special cycle) for AGM


this is it (CBE 510)

I’d like to buy a decent battery but all the brands i *know* don’t seem to do that size – would going up in Ah be ok? ie 120Ah.

Seen some Banner ones that get some good reviews but they are not sealed (??) so need topping up – possibly?

Also the batteries are inside under the front bench seat, the cushion lifts up and theres a wooden lid but they are not in a box or anything like that. They don’t appear to be vented? is this correct – from what i gather i should have a tube to the outside?

Anyone got any recommendations on a good batttery in this size??

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jamesh]

An expert will be along shortly....

I'd stick to LA or lithium tbh. AGM aren't really a great improvement.

Numax are a good budget brand, varta or yuasa for premium batteries.

Should be in a battery box really.

Lenny will be along shortly!

 

[Lenny HB]

Foget about AGM pretty useless for leisure use.
Cheapest option would be a decent sealed lead acid the Varta LFD range get a good rep, the LFD 90 is the most popular for Motorhomes. Even sealed batteries need venting.
If you want them to last you shouldn't discharge them more than 50%.

A good option are Gel batteries if your charger has a gel profile more expensive but last a lot longer and you can discharge to 20% but they do take longer to recharge. Gels don't need venting.

 

[pat12]

Thanks Guys!

something like this? https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/exide/es1200/

I like the fact seem better for internal use but wow they are 40KG each! My charger manual mentions gel batteries but not much specifically.

was also looking at something like this https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/yuasa/l36-efb/

I assume from what you say i'd want to vent these to the outside.

I'm still a little confused about the number of amp hours i need. I actually don't spend too much time off the hookup and the batery only really powers the lights - as far as i know i can't run the fridge off the batteries.

Currently its 2 x 110Ah but wondeing if its worth dropping to a pair of these to get a better battery?

LED95 Varta Professional Dual Purpose EFB Leisure Battery 95Ah (930095085)

LED95 VARTA Professional Dual Purpose EFB Leisure Battery <i>Innovation with Purpose, Premium Experience, Powerful History</i> VARTA was founded in 1887 Germany, and was established fully in 1904 by delivering the first electric vehicle battery, famously driven by Thomas Edison. Soon after...

www.tayna.co.uk

Thanks again.

 

[Richard n Ann]

I'm still a little confused about the number of amp hours i need. I actually don't spend too much time off the hookup and the batery only really powers the lights - as far as i know i can't run the fridge off the batteries.

You won't need 2 batteries then. We've just got the Exide ES900 80ah gel and it powers the TV for half the night, we rarely have hook up but have 150w of solar.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[The Wino]

If you don't want to run an inverter and it is just lights water pump etc then one battery should be enough. Do you have any solar that would recharge your batteries in summer without a hookup. We have a small motorhome don't watch too much TV have no inverter etc we managed fine on a single 90 ah numax for 7 years. Are you sure you only power the lights with the battery and there's no inverter to power sockets it sounds strange putting two 110 ah in just for that.

 

[Pausim]

Your CBE charger has Gel and Pb (lead acid) settings. AGM can be very fussy about how they are charged.

 

[arthur49]

"They were not great to start with but basically i’ve run them flat on every trip and not charged them inbetween. who knew doh."

Are your batteries charging whilst you drive home between trips? The alternator should be putting some charge back in when driving. With a simple voltmeter put it on the leisure battery terminals, start the engine and the voltage should rise. Ideally to 14.4v approx but usually, due to cable runs, probably somewhere between 13.8v and 14.0v. Buy something like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/25454048...d=link&campid=5338547443&toolid=20001&mkevt=1

 

[pat12]

Are you sure you only power the lights with the battery and there's no inverter to power sockets it sounds strange putting two 110 ah in just for that.

Erm no not sure at all! I'll have a look in the cupboard and see i can see anything like that

 

[Lenny HB]

If you really are a light user I would fit an LFD90 only (0 ah but if you find out you are using more power than you think it's easy enough to add a second one.
if you are going to go off grid a lot probably worth going the Gel route.

As for recharging it's best to recharge the batteries ASAP after use, plug the van in when you get home for 24 hours.
If driving to recharge the batteries a flat battery will probably need 300 miles of driving to charge it.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[pat12]

Do you have any solar that would recharge your batteries

Yup has solar.

The batteries were empty of electrolyte so i toped them up and tried a ctek re-conditioning charger.

When i measure the first battery with a meter i'm getting 13.3v

When i charge them over night the control panel shows full, then i put a interior light on and after about 30 mins the panel reads flat and the light goes off.

This is my setup...

 

[pat12]

Also the batteries have an eye - thats just black.

 

[autorouter]

I'm still a little confused about the number of amp hours i need. I actually don't spend too much time off the hookup and the batery only really powers the lights - as far as i know i can't run the fridge off the batteries.

Currently its 2 x 110Ah but wondeing if its worth dropping to a pair of these to get a better battery?

You are not the first to be confused by this. If your battery is the Diamond leisure XL110, the amp-hour rating is 90Ah at the 20 hour rate.

Batteries have different capacities depending on how fast you discharge them. For comparison purposes, manufacturers usually state the Ah capacity when discharged over 20 hours. Sometimes called the C20 rate. They sometimes quote other rates, such as the 5-hour rate or the 100-hour rate.

There are several battery technologies, all based on lead-acid chemistry. The old-style batteries with screw caps to top up with distilled water are the cheapest, but require periodic maintenance, and more important for you they require venting, because they produce hydrogen gas as part of their normal charging/discharging. In your situation I would avoid those.

A better technology is the sealed 'flooded' batteries that have better lead plates that don't produce hydrogen in normal use. They can still produce hydrogen if overcharged, but modern smart chargers never do that. It's still a good idea to run a vent tube from the battery vent to the open air, just in case. They are not actually fully sealed, there is a pressure release valve for if the pressure builds up in abnormal circumstances.

Both these types contain liquid sulfuric acid, not a problem in motorhomes but can be a problem in some situations where damage/spillage is likely - motorcycles, military vehicles etc. To solve this problem, the acid can be turned into a gel, or absorbed into a glass fibre mat. These Gel or Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) batteries are quite popular as leisure batteries. They are also sealed, with a pressure release valve. The term VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead Acid) is used to describe such batteries. For some reason people seem to regard this 50-year-old technology as 'new', even though they regard a 5-year-old mobile phone as hopelessly outdated.

Another thing worth knowing about batteries is how low they can be discharged without degradation. Flooded batteries are best kept above the 50% level, and suffer damage if regularly discharged to say the 20% level. Gel and AGM are better, and can be regularly cycled down to 20% without degradation. So a 100Ah flooded battery will give you a usable 50Ah, but a 100Ah Gel will give you a usable 80Ah.

 

[Jamesh]

If you really are a light user I would fit an LFD90 only (0 ah but if you find out you are using more power than you think it's easy enough to add a second one.
if you are going to go off grid a lot probably worth going the Gel route.

As for recharging it's best to recharge the batteries ASAP after use, plug the van in when you get home for 24 hours.
If driving to recharge the batteries a flat battery will probably need 300 miles of driving to charge it.

Even with a 90amp alternator?

What's the highest % charge that a LA battery can draw? 10% 20% 30%

 

[cyberyacht]

I don't know where you are based but I have a 82AH Exide gel battery sat in my garage, having replaced it with lithiums. I'm near Portsmouth if you want to make me an offer I can't refuse. No horses heads though.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[autorouter]

What's the highest % charge that a LA battery can draw? 10% 20% 30%

About 20% is the recommended charging rate, so that's 20A for a 100Ah battery. That means it's always going to take at least 5 hours to charge it. For 300Ah of battery you could use 60A, but it would still take at least 5 hours.

That's one of the reasons to move to lithium batteries, they can be charged at 50%, ie 2 hours to charge them. and some will be OK at 100% rate.

 

[pat12]

A better technology is the sealed 'flooded' batteries that have better lead plates that don't produce hydrogen in normal use. They can still produce hydrogen if overcharged, but modern smart chargers never do that. It's still a good idea to run a vent tube from the battery vent to the open air, just in case. They are not actually fully sealed, there is a pressure release valve for if the pressure builds up in abnormal circumstances.

Thanks autorouter, very informative.

Think my original batteries are not XL100's - theres no code but they do state 110ah on them.

How do i know if im getting a sealed flooded one?

Where does EFB fit in? as far as i can tell it gives more cycles bit is it sealed?

so far my short list is is a pair of either.....

LED95 Varta Professional Dual Purpose EFB Leisure Battery 95Ah (930095085)

LED95 VARTA Professional Dual Purpose EFB Leisure Battery <i>Innovation with Purpose, Premium Experience, Powerful History</i> VARTA was founded in 1887 Germany, and was established fully in 1904 by delivering the first electric vehicle battery, famously driven by Thomas Edison. Soon after...

www.tayna.co.uk

or

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07F8VSPGN/?tag=mhf04-21

Tayna have a section for 110Ah or Group 31 batteries (https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/types/group-31/) but none of the brands listed seem too apealing?


Thanks.

 

[Itsmcb]

I recently fitted two new Hankook 110amp batteries from https://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/
which would probably be a straight swap for yours.

Mine are also under a seat.

 

[PhilandMena]

You may want to consider the new Leoch Pure lead Carbon AGM battery. It can be maintained on a normal Lead Acid battery charger and can also be discharged much further than a standard Lead Acid battery with no ill effect and rated at 2000 cycles. Which if true is impressive. Some more information below.

12v 100AH Leoch Pure AGM Lead Carbon PLH+ C100 Deep Cycle Leisure Battery NCC Class A - Alpha Batteries

12V 100Ah Ultra Deep Cycle battery for multiple applications – from Leoch’s Pure Lead Carbon series. Features • Pure Lead […]

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

Pure Lead Carbon - Leoch Battery UK

Leoch Pure Lead Carbon batteries, PLH+C series, are Pure Lead Carbon AGM Valve-Regulated Lead-Acid batteries.

www.leochbattery.co.uk

 

[Itsmcb]

Interesting Battery, half the price of Lithium but very heavy. It seems to have a huge available discharge rate so would be ideal for use with an inverter? In the video they say the 2000 cycles is at 50% discharge level (3000 cycles at 35%) so discharging further would seem to affect the life of the battery

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Lenny HB]

Interesting Battery, half the price of Lithium but very heavy. It seems to have a huge available discharge rate so would be ideal for use with an inverter? In the video they say the 2000 cycles is at 50% discharge level (3000 cycles at 35%) so discharging further would seem to affect the life of the battery

They have no track record as such apart from Pill loving them, not heard of anyone having fitted one in a Motorhome.

 

[Lenny HB]

Even with a 90amp alternator?

What's the highest % charge that a LA battery can draw? 10% 20% 30%

That's a tiddly alternator my Hymer has a 160 amp.

It's the wiring that limits the charge and the way LA take a charge, in my van with 16 mm sq cables the initial charge will be 20 to 25 amps then after 10- 15 min will drop to 12 - 15 amps and it will carry on dropping as the battery charge comes up.
A Brit van with 6 mm sq cables it will start at about 10 amps and soon drop to 5 amps or less.

 

[PhilandMena]

They have no track record as such apart from Pill loving them, not heard of anyone having fitted one in a Motorhome.

Your lothing of AGM batteries knows no bounds Lenny, regardless of the many reviews that give these batteries a great rating. There relatively new I believe which may explain why there are few reviews of ones fitted in motorhomes. Have you looked at their reviews! Here's anouther one for you to pull down.
Lead carbon batteries are turning out to be better than many other types due to the benefits they have. The increased charging efficiency increases the performance of the battery fairly significantly. The charging time of these batteries is one-eighth of a lead-acid battery

 

[autorouter]

How do i know if im getting a sealed flooded one?

Where does EFB fit in? as far as i can tell it gives more cycles bit is it sealed?

If it doesn't have removable screw caps for topping up the liquid.

Enhanced Flooded Battery technology details here:

VARTA® EFB (enhanced flooded battery) technology: superior reliability and performance every day

VARTA® EFB (enhanced flooded battery) technology for cars and commercial vehicles: Outstanding technology for your requirements, manufactured in Europe.

www.varta-automotive.com

Briefly, the fibreglass mat in an AGM battery soaks up the liquid and fills the space between the plates. It also stops the paste that forms on the plate from falling off and being lost. This loss is a major factor in degradation in flooded batteries.

In an EFB battery there is a thin jacket of fleece round each plate, which holds the paste and stops it flaking off due to vibration, heat effects etc. There is still lots of liquid sulfuric acid between the plates.

 

[The Wino]

Yup has solar.

The batteries were empty of electrolyte so i toped them up and tried a ctek re-conditioning charger.

When i measure the first battery with a meter i'm getting 13.3v

When i charge them over night the control panel shows full, then i put a interior light on and after about 30 mins the panel reads flat and the light goes off.

This is my setup...

View attachment 601650

View attachment 601645

View attachment 601647

View attachment 601648

I claim no expertese but would have thought your battery leads should be colour coded and the positive at least on the front battery have a cover over it. If you rest something metallic on it there's likely to be a big problem if it is retaining any charge!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Itsmcb]

I claim no expertese but would have thought your battery leads should be colour coded and the positive at least on the front battery have a cover over it

That's very observant

 

[pat12]

Ha it did strike me that it was weird that there were more red wires than black!

 

[AgeingAndrew]

Your lothing of AGM batteries knows no bounds Lenny, regardless of the many reviews that give these batteries a great rating. There relatively new I believe which may explain why there are few reviews of ones fitted in motorhomes. Have you looked at their reviews! Here's anouther one for you to pull down.
Lead carbon batteries are turning out to be better than many other types due to the benefits they have. The increased charging efficiency increases the performance of the battery fairly significantly. The charging time of these batteries is one-eighth of a lead-acid battery

Yep, they are relatively new but the lead-carbon technology has been around for a number of years, it is called Ultrabattery.
Increased charge efficiency is only one of its advantages over traditional lead-acid, for me its performance in a partial state of charge is the real advantage. Add to that the cost comparison with lifepo4; you can buy 3 of these for 1 lithium, and they do not need a BMS, it’s almost a no-brainer. Pity about the weight though.

 

[Jamesh]

That's a tiddly alternator my Hymer has a 160 amp.

It's the wiring that limits the charge and the way LA take a charge, in my van with 16 mm sq cables the initial charge will be 20 to 25 amps then after 10- 15 min will drop to 12 - 15 amps and it will carry on dropping as the battery charge comes up.
A Brit van with 6 mm sq cables it will start at about 10 amps and soon drop to 5 amps or less.

I know but If the battery can only take 20% on two 100ah batteries that's only 40amp.

Cheers James

 

[PhilandMena]

Yep, they are relatively new but the lead-carbon technology has been around for a number of years, it is called Ultrabattery.
Increased charge efficiency is only one of its advantages over traditional lead-acid, for me its performance in a partial state of charge is the real advantage. Add to that the cost comparison with lifepo4; you can buy 3 of these for 1 lithium, and they do not need a BMS, it’s almost a no-brainer. Pity about the weight though.

I've see a few technical reports on this battery by what appears to be knowledgeable industry experts (I'm not sure what qualifies a person to be an expert other than formal qualification to a recognised standard and therefore not convinced we actually have Leisure battery experts as such! Anyway, moving on). The common message coming from these guys was the purity of the lead and use of carbon on one of the poles was key to its staggering performance and more or less prevented any sulphating from taking place. They all agreed the amount of cycles and depth of discharge was a game changer and although not as good as Lithium, they would be hard to beat and would also charge very quickly. I have them on my radar for my next battery change and my preference is the Leoch as their data sheet shows the charging profile is almost identical to that of a bog standard lead acid battery.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}