Can I run a 110amp lithium and 110gel in parallel

[Poutie57]

Just a question for all those 12v gurus out there can I run a parallel battery set up with a 110amp gel and a 110amp lithium battery setup, I’m running full victron kit ie: mppt, Orion dc/dc and IP22. Or is this a definite no no

 

[jongood]

The way you have taken the discussion might not be relevant to my set up but is it relevant to the OPs set up? I don’t know whether Poutie57 has the type of BMS that would allow him to control charging as you would suggest. Perhaps my set up is just as relevant as yours.

tbf the op's original question was can he run a lifePo4 and an Agm side by side.

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

yeah I,m running 150ah lithium with 95ah agm in parallel with 50a b2b connected to engine battery.

Similar here but my engine battery is not topped up by solar so I use a battery Master between the Lithium & the engine battery.
Only thing to watch with the Battery Master is that if you have no charge being input to the Hab battery, every time the engine battery voltage drops by just over ½v the Battery Master will pull some from the hab to keep the engine battery topped up. This means if you do leave it long enough the hab battery will discharge a bit more every time it decides to add voltage into the engine battery. If the engine battery continues to lose charge the hab will also discharge bit by bit (operation by operation). You will end up with both batteries discharged.
The Battery Master doesn't care WHAT THE VOLTAGE IS as it only looks for the ½v difference and then initiates a transfer from the hab to the engine, until the voltages equalise.
It does however prevent a rapid voltage drop in the hab battery from sucking ANY juice from the engine battery. In other words it's a one way valve effect opening only to the engine battery and ONLY WHEN the engine battery is ½v lower than the hab battery.
Sorry that's a long answer but hope it might answer some questions.

 

[Pausim]

tbf the op's original question was can he run a lifePo4 and an Agm side by side.

Yes and bigtwin has pointed out that you can if you have a configurable BMS. I have pointed out the potential risks of such an arrangement if, like me, you do not have a configurable BMS. I was told the discussion wasn’t applicable to my set up but we now know the OP doesn’t have a configurable BMS either. Why is my fairly typical arrangement not applicable to the OPs original question?

 

[bigtwin]

My BMS doesn’t play any part in controlling charging, it is there to protect the battery from extremes and to do cell balancing if needed. The B2B/mains charger profiles control the charging and will shut back to a maintenance voltage as soon as the Li profile terminal voltage is reached.

In which case this discussion isn’t really applicable to your setup.

As I explained above, your system isn’t capable of being configured in the hybrid arrangement that I’ve been discussing.

Perhaps my set up is just as relevant as yours.

How can it be relevant if you are not mixing battery types?

The OP will have to decide whether or not his system is compatible with the requirements that I’ve outlined. You have, and yours isn’t.

As I said earlier, the OP has to decide whether his system is suitable for adopting this arrangement; he has now clarified that it is not.

tbf the op's original question was can he run a lifePo4 and an Agm side by side.

I was told the discussion wasn’t applicable to my set up but we now know the OP doesn’t have a configurable BMS either

That how discussions work; information is given/teased out and conclusions are drawn.

Why is my fairly typical arrangement not applicable to the OPs original question?

Because, as I understand it, you are not configured for, and have no plans to, adopt a mixed battery setup.

You appear to be upset about something that I can’t work out but, if it’s something that I said you have my apologies.

Ian

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Pausim]

Because, as I understand it, you are not configured for, and have no plans to, adopt a mixed battery setup.

I discounted a mixed battery set up for the reasons I gave at #16. I removed a perfectly good nearly new Gel battery when I transferred my Lipo to my current motorhome and I still have it stored fully charged and available.

 

[jongood]

Yes and bigtwin has pointed out that you can if you have a configurable BMS. I have pointed out the potential risks of such an arrangement if, like me, you do not have a configurable BMS. I was told the discussion wasn’t applicable to my set up but we now know the OP doesn’t have a configurable BMS either. Why is my fairly typical arrangement not applicable to the OPs original question?

sorry, I didnt realise you were considering going hybrid.

 

[bigtwin]

I discounted a mixed battery set up for the reasons I gave at #16.

And were your concerns not addressed by my response in #18?

Ian

 

[Pausim]

sorry, I didnt realise you were considering going hybrid.

I dropped the idea a few years back and have since found the Lipo on it’s own works well enough for me. For a while they sat next to each other in the battery box with one or the other connected but not in parallel.

 

[Pausim]

And were your concerns not addressed by my response in #18?

Ian

No because as far as I know most Lipo batteries do not have a BMS that can be configured in this way. Perhaps some do.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[jongood]

I dropped the idea a few years back and have since found the Lipo on it’s own works well enough for me. For a while they sat next to each other in the battery box with one or the other connected but not in parallel.

While not wishing to curtail your involvement in any way, I'm not understanding your issue with this discussion then?

 

[Pausim]

While not wishing to curtail your involvement in any way, I'm not understanding your issue with this discussion then?

I am simply trying to point out that in some set ups the AGM/Gel battery may not get properly charged and could deteriorate. This seems relevant to the OP’s original question.

 

[bigtwin]

I am simply trying to point out that in some set ups the AGM/Gel battery may not get properly charged and could deteriorate. This seems relevant to the OP’s original question.

I addressed that aspect in post #18.

Ian

 

[jongood]

I am simply trying to point out that in some set ups the AGM/Gel battery may not get properly charged and could deteriorate. This seems relevant to the OP’s original question.

the point is that the setting are left as original and not changed to a lithium setting. probably easier on the leads than normal (these days) inverter use .

constantly moving target these days, but ive been doing this for over a year now with fairly heavy inverter use and no failures so far.

 

[Pausim]

I addressed that aspect in post #18.

Ian

You addressed it by saying

In a hybrid arrangement, you need a configurable BMS with separate ‘control’ and ‘hardware protection’

which is only applicable to those with a configurable BMS not for those without.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[bigtwin]

You addressed it by saying

which is only applicable to those with a configurable BMS not for those without.

You need to make up you mind whether your issue is with the correct charging of the lead (which is the initial concern that you raised, and repeated in your reply to jongood in post #41, and which my post #18 addressed) or the fact that the hybrid arrangement needs a configurable BMS which you do not have.

This is my last response to you as you appear to be seeking conflict.

Ian

 

[Pausim]

You need to make up you mind whether your issue is with the correct charging of the lead (which is the initial concern that you raised, and repeated in your reply to jongood in post #41, and which my post #18 addressed) or the fact that the hybrid arrangement needs a configurable BMS which you do not have.

This is my last response to you as you appear to be seeking conflict.

Ian

Nothing to be gained from conflict.

I have already jongood at #43 because his solution seems to work on an ordinary set up.

 

[Poutie57]

Thanks again for all the info, it’s interesting to read the differing opinions on a subject. I think I’m going to try and parallel them with the B2b set for gel and wired into the gel and the mppt wired into the lithium with the outgoing live taken from the lithium to the Han panel

 

[bigtwin]

Thanks again for all the info, it’s interesting to read the differing opinions on a subject. I think I’m going to try and parallel them with the B2b set for gel and wired into the gel and the mppt wired into the lithium with the outgoing live taken from the lithium to the Han panel

If you’re wiring the batteries in parallel it doesn’t matter where you connect the two charge sources; they are not electrically independent.

If you are unable to configure the BMS with hybrid specific settings, I’d take further advice about what you have outlined that you intend to do as you will not be adopting a setup that is well proven.

Ian

 

[Poutie57]

If you’re wiring the batteries in parallel it doesn’t matter where you connect the two charge sources; they are not electrically independent.

If you are unable to configure the BMS with hybrid specific settings, I’d take further advice about what you have outlined that you intend to do as you will not be adopting a setup that is well proven.

Ian

Thank you

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

tbf the op's original question was can he run a lifePo4 and an Agm side by side.

The B2B normally charges the hab from its connection with the Engine battery. As soon as engine stops the system normally disconnects the B2B from the Engine battery. That is why your solar doesn't normally charge the Engine battery and why many Funsters insert a battery master between the 2 batteries, allowing the hab battery to top up the engine battery, whilst also preventing back feed from the engine battery to the hab battery, just in case of too much TV watching, lighting, compressor fridge or heating fan running.

 

[jongood]

The B2B normally charges the hab from its connection with the Engine battery. As soon as engine stops the system normally disconnects the B2B from the Engine battery. That is why your solar doesn't normally charge the Engine battery and why many Funsters insert a battery master between the 2 batteries, allowing the hab battery to top up the engine battery, whilst also preventing back feed from the engine battery to the hab battery, just in case of too much TV watching, lighting, compressor fridge or heating fan running.

you don't need a B2B with hybrid, unless you have a "silly smart" alternator.

 

[Poutie57]

The B2B normally charges the hab from its connection with the Engine battery. As soon as engine stops the system normally disconnects the B2B from the Engine battery. That is why your solar doesn't normally charge the Engine battery and why many Funsters insert a battery master between the 2 batteries, allowing the hab battery to top up the engine battery, whilst also preventing back feed from the engine battery to the hab battery, just in case of too much TV watching, lighting, compressor fridge or heating fan running.

I’ve got the CBE equivalent of a battery master and have installed a n/c relay (thanks to Pausim for his help on that) so all that side of things are taken care of. The rest of the equipment is all victron so I can set it all up with the right charging profiles

 

[Neckender]

I’ve got the CBE equivalent of a battery master and have installed a n/c relay (thanks to Pausim for his help on that) so all that side of things are taken care of. The rest of the equipment is all victron so I can set it all up with the right charging profiles

I have fitted the CBE unit to my VW T6.1 and it works really well, could you tell me what a n/c relay does.


John.

 

[Poutie57]

I have fitted the CBE unit to my VW T6.1 and it works really well, could you tell me what a n/c relay does.


John.

It basically cuts off the split charge stopping the B2b from looping back to the cab battery when the B2b kicks in whilst driving

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

I’ve got the CBE equivalent of a battery master and have installed a n/c relay (thanks to Pausim for his help on that) so all that side of things are taken care of. The rest of the equipment is all victron so I can set it all up with the right charging profiles

I found that setting the Victron MPPT to AGM resulted in very high full charge voltages of up to 14.7v which is not good for longevity of the battery... I changed it to LiPo and it now stays below 13.7.