Can I justify lithium, really?

[funflair]

The techy/geeky side of me would love lithium and probably an efoy as well just because I could
But.....I dont use enough power to warrant it, even in nov/dec down in cornwall wild camping I cant get anywhere near halfway down my lead acid/solar combination
I think they are great but it's all down to personal requirements

I have an EFOY for sale in the classified if you want to go half way

 

[Pausim]

I use an Efoy 140, which produces up to 140Ah per day at 12V. Lighter than solar and because it steadily produces power day or night no need for a large battery bank, another weight saving. My set up is Efoy 140 8kg, fuel cartridge (10 litres) 8.5kg and 1x100Ah LiFePO4 battery 12kg. Total weight 28.5kg and the wallet is a lot lighter too cos it ain’t the cheapest solution.

 

[ED O'DARAC]

Please don't think that I have anything against LiFePo4 batteries (my car and house each have them), however solar is so much cheaper and lead acid batteries just do the trick in our camper.
I fitted 120w solar for £180 including Schaudt plug and play regulator, and doubled the battery to 200w for £90. Now it runs the compressor fridge and is charging before we wake.
With LED lights and TVs throughout, are users stuck in the past for their power needs?
I have to concede that the idea of adding Lithium is sexy, but I still think it is overkill on a camper.

 

[cakey]

I don’t know what vehicle you have and you seem to have your finger on the pulse but for information only. I recently was having a problem with charging from the solar panel, long story short the solar panel was nic nacked but in the process of trying to establish the problem I spoke to Sargent, the van is fitted with the Sargent 450 series. (Swift Bolero Fb) . I mentioned that was thinking of adding an additional panel and the guy did say that the 450 series wouldn’t cope with anything much above 175 watts. I noticed you were thinking of going up to 300 watts. Your probably got to tell me your vehicle hasn’t got the Sargent system fitted

 

[two]

In my mind, the advantage of Lithium is the weight saving. The disadvantage is cost.
I find it strange that some seem happy to spend so much on a Lithium installation to save comparatively little on site fees. If cost is an issue, stick with existing technology.

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[BigDean]

I don’t know what vehicle you have and you seem to have your finger on the pulse but for information only. I recently was having a problem with charging from the solar panel, long story short the solar panel was nic nacked but in the process of trying to establish the problem I spoke to Sargent, the van is fitted with the Sargent 450 series. (Swift Bolero Fb) . I mentioned that was thinking of adding an additional panel and the guy did say that the 450 series wouldn’t cope with anything much above 175 watts. I noticed you were thinking of going up to 300 watts. Your probably got to tell me your vehicle hasn’t got the Sargent system fitted

Not a Sargent, a Nordelectronica NE237. Wont charge lithium correctly, so would replace with a Victron charger. Solar would have a Victron Smartsolar MPPT. All to protect the batteries.

Problem if I go down this route is disabling charging from the NE237, but keeping it controlling everything else, including the maintenance of the cab battery. It could be a right pain in the butt to be honest. The NE237 is great at doing what it does, but doesn't like to be interfered with.

 

[BigDean]

In my mind, the advantage of Lithium is the weight saving. The disadvantage is cost.
I find it strange that some seem happy to spend so much on a Lithium installation to save comparatively little on site fees. If cost is an issue, stick with existing technology.

Thanks for that. Weight is not an issue, we have a lot of payload.

The aim is not to save on site fees, it is just to be self sufficient. Planning a leisurely 3 to 4 month trip to Turkey and back next year and need to cover all eventualities.

Thanks.

 

[Pausim]

Not a Sargent, a Nordelectronica NE237. Wont charge lithium correctly, so would replace with a Victron charger. Solar would have a Victron Smartsolar MPPT. All to protect the batteries.

Problem if I go down this route is disabling charging from the NE237, but keeping it controlling everything else, including the maintenance of the cab battery. It could be a right pain in the butt to be honest. The NE237 is great at doing what it does, but doesn't like to be interfered with.

The NE237 has a gel setting with 14.4V. Most LiFePO4 batteries will charge to 95% at 14.4V and if you are on mains the lost 5% hardly matters, it is not going to harm the battery.

 

[poppycamper]

Thanks for that. Weight is not an issue, we have a lot of payload.

The aim is not to save on site fees, it is just to be self sufficient. Planning a leisurely 3 to 4 month trip to Turkey and back next year and need to cover all eventualities.

Thanks.

find it strange that some seem happy to spend so much on a Lithium installation to save comparatively little on site fees

Yes some may...but I think most like me prefer off grid not because of the minimum savings but that they prefer to sit on a THS or non leccy CL than sitting on a fully fledged site.

 

[poppycamper]

Most LiFePO4 batteries will charge to 95% at 14.4V

My so called drop in replacement battery is rated at 14.4v.

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[BigDean]

The one I have for R&D is the same.

Still didn’t think the NE237 would “look after” it too well although tech at Adria said it would be fine.....

 

[Raul]

Yes some may...but I think most like me prefer off grid not because of the minimum savings but that they prefer to sit on a THS or non leccy CL than sitting on a fully fledged site.

The LiFePo4 will be well and truly fully charged 100% by the time it gets to14,4v. You can fully charge even at 13,8v guaranteed. In fact, once it hits 13,6v it’s already at 95% plus. Give it few mins absorb, and it will be 100% charged. The only difference is time and rate of charge. The lower the rate, the lower the voltage needed, but it will increase the time to do it.
The graph shows voltage per cell, multiply by 4 for 12v battery.

 

[BigDean]

The LiFePo4 will be well and truly fully charged 100% by the time it gets to14,4v. You can fully charge even at 13,8v guaranteed. In fact, once it hits 13,6v it’s already at 95% plus. Give it few mins absorb, and it will be 100% charged. The only difference is time and rate of charge. The lower the rate, the lower the voltage needed, but it will increase the time to do it.
The graph shows voltage per cell, multiply by 4 for 12v battery.

My charger (on the gel setting) will charge at 14.4v, then drop to 13.8v in maintenance mode.

So in that case, should be fine "dropping" one in?

 

[Raul]

My charger (on the gel setting) will charge at 14.4v, then drop to 13.8v in maintenance mode.

So in that case, should be fine "dropping" one in?

Yes, providing you have some loads on all the time, even small ones. Even a battery master, trickling a starter would do. This is to bleed some energy, being floated at 13,8v is a bit high. If it would float at 13,6v, then no load to bleed needed.

 

[BigDean]

Yes, providing you have some loads on all the time, even small ones. Even a battery master, trickling a starter would do. This is to bleed some energy, being floated at 13,8v is a bit high. If it would float at 13,6v, then no load to bleed needed.

There would always be the Victron shunt and CerboGX, so that would work.

Thanks

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[Raul]

The shunt and cerbo, even with the display on all the time, it’s a very small milliamps load. Very insignificant. A battery master will draw at least amp to keep the starter charged.
Why cerbo?

 

[BigDean]

The shunt and cerbo, even with the display on all the time, it’s a very small milliamps load. Very insignificant. A battery master will draw at least amp to keep the starter charged.
Why cerbo?

The NE237 takes care of the starter battery as well already, so would need to find something else to draw power. The tracker could take its power from the leisure battery, and could always power a camera from the system to create a load.

I travel a lot (normally) and am sometimes away for 2 months or more at a time without the MoHo, so like to know what's happening when not there. VRM is great at seeing what is and more importantly, has, happened remotely. I am a stats guy, and love the info VRM gives me.

If I could take out the NE237 and replace with 100% Victron, I would; but think that is a job too far.

 

[Raul]

If the NE237 charges the starter from the leisure already, plus a camera and alarm, that’s enough.
By the way, with the cerbo on VRM, you can set a geofence and act like a tracker. You can set alerts via vrm. I use a colour control GX on a fixed installation and monitor the use of electricity while away. I can cut the power of at the inverter, I can update all the devices, and even alter settings 1600 miles away. You got relay that you can control on your cerbo remotely.

 

[cmcardle75]

My charger (on the gel setting) will charge at 14.4v, then drop to 13.8v in maintenance mode.

So in that case, should be fine "dropping" one in?

13.8V is still a bit high for my taste. IIRC, the Victron drops fairly quickly to 12.8V, although below 13.6V would probably be good enough.

Personally, I wouldn't risk running an expensive LiFePO4 on any non adjustable lead acid programme. They're fine in bulk charge (they'll take pretty much as many amps as you throw at them!), but they tend to significantly overcharge in absorbtion and then fry them in float.

Actually, I say this, but my B2B is a lead acid programme. However, it's only on for relatively brief periods, so I'm less worried about overly high float charges. It's on the list for future replacement anyway, though.

 

[Two on Tour]

I have setup a Raspberry Pi and touch screen running Victron's Venus OS to monitor my Victron gear.

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[Conrad J]

Never mind all the technical stuff, what you need to put into the equation is your holidaying style. If you use your 'van daily or even every other, driving a few miles should charge your existing battery, plus with your solar panel you may find you may not even need to move at all. Suggest you see if you've got a real need before spending out on replacing your batteries.

 

[Pausim]

Personally, I wouldn't risk running an expensive LiFePO4 on any non adjustable lead acid programme. They're fine in bulk charge (they'll take pretty much as many amps as you throw at them!), but they tend to significantly overcharge in absorbtion and then fry them in float.

This is what Relion has to say.
Charging with Lead-Acid Battery Chargers
Most lead-acid battery chargers can be used with LiFePO4 batteries as long as they are within the appropriate voltage guidelines. AGM and Gel algorithms typically fall within the LiFePO4 voltage requirements. The voltage for flooded battery charging algorithms are often higher than LiFePO4 requirements, which will result in the BMS disconnecting the battery at the end of the charge cycle and possibly result in the charger displaying an error code. If this happens, it is generally a good practice to replace your charger for one with a LiFePO4 charge profile. Since the BMS protects the battery, using lead-acid chargers will typically not damage the battery.

 

[cmcardle75]

This is what Relion has to say.
Charging with Lead-Acid Battery Chargers
Most lead-acid battery chargers can be used with LiFePO4 batteries as long as they are within the appropriate voltage guidelines. AGM and Gel algorithms typically fall within the LiFePO4 voltage requirements. The voltage for flooded battery charging algorithms are often higher than LiFePO4 requirements, which will result in the BMS disconnecting the battery at the end of the charge cycle and possibly result in the charger displaying an error code. If this happens, it is generally a good practice to replace your charger for one with a LiFePO4 charge profile. Since the BMS protects the battery, using lead-acid chargers will typically not damage the battery.

Not sure I'd like to rely on a system that basically says the charge profile is so inappropriate that the BMS will disconnect the battery, so it's all fine!

 

[funflair]

Not sure I'd like to rely on a system that basically says the charge profile is so inappropriate that the BMS will disconnect the battery, so it's all fine!

I don't read it as "so it's all fine" it says if the BMS is cutting off the charge it will be protecting the battery but you should fit a more suitable charger, or thats the way I read it.

 

[cmcardle75]

I don't read it as "so it's all fine" it says if the BMS is cutting off the charge it will be protecting the battery but you should fit a more suitable charger, or thats the way I read it.

Whether the BMS is good enough to cut the battery when run against an inappropriate profile says more about the BMS that the suitability of the charge profile.

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[Pausim]

Not sure I'd like to rely on a system that basically says the charge profile is so inappropriate that the BMS will disconnect the battery, so it's all fine!

It will not happen if the charge profile is within the Li range i.e. gel or agm. It only might happen and if it does change it.

 

[cmcardle75]

It will not happen if the charge profile is within the Li range i.e. gel or agm. It only might happen and if it does change it.

What I mean is, the charge profile is likely to be pretty inappropriate. It's luck of the draw whether your BMS will pull the plug. If it doesn't, it just wears your batteries out. It doesn't mean the charger is good.

 

[roamervans]

Not a Sargent, a Nordelectronica NE237. Wont charge lithium correctly, so would replace with a Victron charger. Solar would have a Victron Smartsolar MPPT. All to protect the batteries.

Problem if I go down this route is disabling charging from the NE237, but keeping it controlling everything else, including the maintenance of the cab battery. It could be a right pain in the butt to be honest. The NE237 is great at doing what it does, but doesn't like to be interfered with.

Have you seen the service from Apuljack? They can reprogram the NE237 to charge at 14.6V (and I assume change the float voltage too).

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[Pausim]

What I mean is, the charge profile is likely to be pretty inappropriate. It's luck of the draw whether your BMS will pull the plug. If it doesn't, it just wears your batteries out. It doesn't mean the charger is good.

No it is not “luck of the draw”. If the charger has a profile that gives a maximum voltage of 14.4V then it is no more likely to trigger the BMS protection mode than a LiFePO4 profile with a similar maximum voltage. The article is simply pointing out that the BMS will protect the battery from over voltage whatever the charger does (unlike a lead acid battery).

If the charger does not give details of it’s charging profiles then yes, I would not use it. Anything with a de sulphation capability is a definite no, because that uses pulses of higher voltage.

Between their maximum and minimum voltages LiFePO4 batteries are no more vulnerable to damage than lead acid ones, probably less so. They don’t mind being left partially charged, they deliver higher power without damage and they don’t risk gassing by charging too quickly or for too long.

In my experience it is the off grid charging that needs careful attention. A wee bit of undercharging when on ehu is not really a problem and if it really worries you, you can turn the mains charger off when you don’t need it.

 

[69473]

I'm due to have lithium fitted next month to my PVC, initially thought 200w solar and two 95ah batteries would be OK.
However it was evident that when the sunlight was poor, the present set up would only sustain us for 2 / 3 days.
Our last trip to the lakes showed its limitations, poor weather confined us to the van and with the diesel heater firing away, the compressor fridge and the various kids screens we soon hit battery anxiety.
By the third morning we managed to hook up to a vacated pitch for a few hours only because of a non arrival.

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