CalMac motorhome drivers face 70 per cent fare hike as loophole closed

poppycamper said:
That would require more infrastructure to store/manage/move/load etc containers.. whereas at moment lorry turns up and drives onto ferry.
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I was not thinking Felixstowe. More like the little 1200 ton coasters that take the malting barley. If they drop 10 boxes at one then jog round to the next island and drop some more etc. 10 boxes would not require acres of ground. They are only little islands, one truck would probably clear the lot in a day. But if you think they need major infrastructure well then that’s it.
 
Ivory55 said:
I was not thinking Felixstowe. More like the little 1200 ton coasters that take the malting barley. If they drop 10 boxes at one then jog round to the next island and drop some more etc. 10 boxes would not require acres of ground. They are only little islands, one truck would probably clear the lot in a day. But if you think they need major infrastructure well then that’s it.
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If you're talking about the Clyde puffer fleet there's a few problems.
They were break bulk vessels and unable to transport containers.
Even puffers had issues discharging on some of the islands due to tidal conditions, lack of harbour facilities with some cargo being transhipped into small boats for carriage to shore, etc.
From memory, the last service, operated by Greenlight Shipping, was in the early 90's as they couldn't compete with the subsidies given to ro-ro ferry services.

Bulk grain is predominately transported in dedicated articulated tipper trailers to maintain H&S compliance.
The output from the distilleries (malt whisky) is, generally, transported in semi-dedicated dual bedded articulated trailers.

Unless there was container breakdown faciliies somewhere on every island served every "importer" would have to be ordering in full container quantities!

Remember the total population of the Hebrides spread over 30 - 40 islands is probably between 40k and 50k which is probably similar to the population of Kings Lynn unless it has changed damatically recently.

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poppycamper said:
Aaawww dinnae be like that...Be nice..
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All I could see was a crane and a big forklift. A load of 20ft boxes, it would just be dry stuff like dog food and cleaning stuff from the supermarket, building supplies, may be whiskey out but I don’t know if it needs custom etc for that. Just park an empty skelly to be loaded while the truck is delivering. The ship one has about 3or 4 onboard and couldn’t just jog round on a regular route and park up on Sunday for the crew to have a day off etc, probably be a hire boat anyway.
 
Gellyneck said:
If you're talking about the Clyde puffer fleet there's a few problems.
They were break bulk vessels and unable to transport containers.
Even puffers had issues discharging on some of the islands due to tidal conditions, lack of harbour facilities with some cargo being transhipped into small boats for carriage to shore, etc.
From memory, the last service, operated by Greenlight Shipping, was in the early 90's as they couldn't compete with the subsidies given to ro-ro ferry services.

Bulk grain is predominately transported in dedicated articulated tipper trailers to maintain H&S compliance.
The output from the distilleries (malt whisky) is, generally, transported in semi-dedicated dual bedded articulated trailers.

Unless there was container breakdown faciliies somewhere on every island served every "importer" would have to be ordering in full container quantities!

Remember the total population of the Hebrides spread over 30 - 40 islands is probably between 40k and 50k which is probably similar to the population of Kings Lynn unless it has changed damatically recently.
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I know they loaded malt barley for places like buckie and islay in lynn and they are little 1200 ton boats to get in on low water etc.
 
jockaneezer said:
Bring back the Clyde Puffers !
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One of the few left after restoration at Crinan. Hatches and hold converted into passenger space, I believe.

1639838998564.png
 
Ivory55 said:
I know they loaded malt barley for places like buckie and islay in lynn and they are little 1200 ton boats to get in on low water etc.
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Agreed but when? I know there was a major refurb of the silo at KL a few years ago for storing grain.
Were those coasters container capable vessels?
Are they capable of servicing the 30-40 populated Isles? What is the draft \ facilities at each of those ports compared with those on the Isles?

The facilities at -
Kings Lynn
1639839396626.png


Buckie
1639839414271.png


Port Askaig
1639839434566.png


What are the other island facilities like?

With only KL having (if it still does) container facilities. I used to ship around 800-1000 containers \ annum out to Hamburg from there with Washbay Linie until they went bust in mid 90's.
 
Ivory55... Bottom foty... Port Askaig.... hunners o room there for stowing/loading 20/40ft containers

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Ivory55 said:
All I could see was a crane and a big forklift. A load of 20ft boxes, it would just be dry stuff like dog food and cleaning stuff from the supermarket, building supplies, may be whiskey out but I don’t know if it needs custom etc for that. Just park an empty skelly to be loaded while the truck is delivering. The ship one has about 3or 4 onboard and couldn’t just jog round on a regular route and park up on Sunday for the crew to have a day off etc, probably be a hire boat anyway.
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Easy said but highly complicated and hugely expensive to operate!

A crane and forklift on every island? 30-40 of each. Unless the vessel was derrick equipped. Try lifting a 20 with possibly up to 25 tonne of cargo with a coaster's derrick! Seen them try it on a Colombian islands in the Caribbean and fail. Call out for two mobile cranes to lift one 20. They even had the rigid flatbed truck down on it's suspension stops when they got it on about 5-6 hours later!

Nine distilleries on Islay alone with a skeleton at each. Cost involved? Whisky would have to be casked at each distillery and very difficult to load and dunnage into a 20 container. Current cask trailers (13.6m vs 20 foot) utilised are roller-bedded. Up to 36k litres in a road tanker.

Required supplies for each of the islands wouldn't even fill 10 foot never mind a 20.

How many vessels required when they are "jogging around" these 30-40 islands?

There would be no Customs issues as each distillery owner self-regulates \ submits returns.
 
Gellyneck said:
Agreed but when? I know there was a major refurb of the silo at KL a few years ago for storing grain.
Were those coasters container capable vessels?
Are they capable of servicing the 30-40 populated Isles? What is the draft \ facilities at each of those ports compared with those on the Isles?

The facilities at -
Kings Lynn
View attachment 567171

Buckie
View attachment 567172

Port Askaig
View attachment 567173

What are the other island facilities like?

With only KL having (if it still does) container facilities. I used to ship around 800-1000 containers \ annum out to Hamburg from there with Washbay Linie until they went bust in mid 90's.
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They don’t do containers anymore, timber, grain and scrap. The little ones come inside the dock but the bigger ones, usually grain stay on the river. Which is only every 2 weeks as the water is usually to low, which is why said about the little ones as they seem to come anytime. Just seemed to be a way of getting stuff to some of the islands with out a special build waiting years and years to happen. With the amount of distillery being built on islay they will have to come up with something. I know they used a jetty on Jura when bringing in stuff for building the golf course. The golf course people was on about paying to lengthen the runway to bring in bigger planes to get more customers etc in.
 
Ivory55 said:
Was thinking 20 to keep the truck size down on the island.
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Not an expert... but would that not be additional cost. Most trailers I have seen are 40ft that can take 2x20ft containers.. don't think I have ever seen a single 20ft container trailer.
 
Ivory55 said:
They don’t do containers anymore, timber, grain and scrap. The little ones come inside the dock but the bigger ones, usually grain stay on the river. Which is only every 2 weeks as the water is usually to low, which is why said about the little ones as they seem to come anytime. Just seemed to be a way of getting stuff to some of the islands with out a special build waiting years and years to happen. With the amount of distillery being built on islay they will have to come up with something. I know they used a jetty on Jura when bringing in stuff for building the golf course. The golf course people was on about paying to lengthen the runway to bring in bigger planes to get more customers etc in.
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The issue is the timeframe around the supply \ delivery of vessels for CalMac and that is what has to be addressed.

The output from the "new" distilleries on Islay will just use the existing infrastructure tweaked to accommodate. The infrastructure required to return the existing and new distilleries to break bulk operation would be impossible to implement effectively.

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poppycamper said:
Not an expert... but would that not be additional cost. Most trailers I have seen are 40ft that can take 2x20ft containers.. don't think I have ever seen a single 20ft container trailer.
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City trailer, 3 axel with rear steer. The island are only little so would only be a squirt of diesel to drive across, more gentle on the roads .
 
poppycamper said:
Not an expert... but would that not be additional cost. Most trailers I have seen are 40ft that can take 2x20ft containers.. don't think I have ever seen a single 20ft container trailer.
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The cost of moving a single 20ft on a skeleton (or flatbed) is roughly the same as a 40' hence the reason they double them up on a 40' trailer. The issue you have, if laden, is they have to be offloaded to discharge.

A single 20' can be transported on a 40' skeletal however it has to be over the trailer, as opposed to the tractor axles, for tipping and that can give axle weight issues. The alternative is to use a 20' trailer or a trombone trailer.
 
You could put them back to back and drop the trailer to unload, but you will need a portable ramp not be able to backup to a bay like the back box
 
Ivory55 said:
City trailer, 3 axel with rear steer. The island are only little so would only be a squirt of diesel to drive across, more gentle on the roads .
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So, it's now specialised trailers at each distillery with the tractors using the same size of squirts as unaccompanied trailers on a ferry.
Believe me it's not workable. I used to ship 35-40 thousand 40' containers of booze out of Scotland annually.
 
Ivory55 said:
You could put them back to back and drop the trailer to unload, but you will need a portable ramp not be able to backup to a bay like the back box
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and if the trailer has a headboard? Does every loading point have a portable ramp?
If I was to take a solution like that to our warehouse staff and H&S you wanna guess the reaction I would get?

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Gellyneck said:
and if the trailer has a headboard? Does every loading point have a portable ramp?
If I was to take a solution like that to our warehouse staff and H&S you wanna guess the reaction I would get?
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Good job not everywhere is the same, just what happens
 
I know they have been moaning about the 40 ft trailer on island road causing damage etc on roads built for horses, may be they might have to have smaller trailer or build trunk roads
 
Gellyneck said:
The cost of moving a single 20ft on a skeleton (or flatbed) is roughly the same as a 40' hence the reason they double them up on a 40' trailer. The issue you have, if laden, is they have to be offloaded to discharge.

A single 20' can be transported on a 40' skeletal however it has to be over the trailer, as opposed to the tractor axles, for tipping and that can give axle weight issues. The alternative is to use a 20' trailer or a trombone trailer.
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Ivory55 said:
build trunk roads
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Yep that's a brill idea.. trunk roads on the islands.. dig up Mull or Iona and build trunk roads. We not talking about the vast areas of the Norfolk.
 
poppycamper said:
Yep that's a brill idea.. trunk roads on the islands.. dig up Mull or Iona and build trunk roads. We not talking about the vast areas of the Norfolk.
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All those jobs it would create, we are on to a winner here. Haha
 
I think the city trailer should be used more, better for the roads as less tearing up the little roads. 40 ft is better for motorway not little island.

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Ivory55 said:
If someone is going there with very limited income exactly how much are they going to spend in the local economy ? It’s always being said how much motorhome spend local and how they are doing so much good for the local economy. If they cannot afford the ferry they ain’t going to be spending much.
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Yep, precisely. Like I said, they'll make it unviable / poor value for money for me. Certainly when we went to the Uists for our shakedown run back in July we spent (as a couple) in the region of £4-500. Yes the ferry price contributes to the economy I have no doubt but I'd rather be spending more money on local businesses for those individuals on the islands to be honest.
 
WillH said:
No. International rates of pay. Long hours is the problem, 84 hour week.
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People will put up with bad conditions or long hours if the money is there, if it’s not there what incentive is there. People only go to work for the money, just like a buisness want to earn the most profit
 
nicholsong said:
Are those the same unions whose members run the UK- France, Netherlands and Spain routes
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WillH said:
No. International rates of pay. Long hours is the problem, 84 hour week.
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But they do 2 weeks on 2 off so average 42 hours/week. Plus they get holidays

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