Best mains charger for Lithium

[DuncT]

Just following on from my last post about b2b chargers. I also need a mains charger for when plugged in.
I was planning on getting the Victron IP22 but then read that it can be noisy?

Any recommendations? Only need a max of around 30a.

Ta - Dunc

 

[Two on Tour]

Just following on from my last post about b2b chargers. I also need a mains charger for when plugged in.
I was planning on getting the Victron IP22 but then read that it can be noisy?

Any recommendations? Only need a max of around 30a.

Ta - Dunc

I have a 20A Victron IP22 which I have not found to be noisy.
Didn't see the sense of getting anything bigger for the few times it get used or is needed.

 

[MisterB]

Just following on from my last post about b2b chargers. I also need a mains charger for when plugged in.
I was planning on getting the Victron IP22 but then read that it can be noisy?

Any recommendations? Only need a max of around 30a.

Ta - Dunc

are you talking about when the motorhome is plugged in? i have used my in built charger on Lead Acid setting for two years, with no issues. it only charges up to around 98% of a 304Ah, but solar and driving add the rest ..... there are quite a few comments in other threads that might be worth reading before spending time and money. Of course a dedicated charger would always be the best option, but there are lots of best options in life although we often choose the most 'practical' and cost effective ....

 

[DuncT]

MisterB that's very interesting.
Yep, I just want to be able to charge my new 285ah leisure battery on hookup. Not bothered if it only charges to 98% tbh.
But.... I've read that using a "non-lithium" charger will bugger the battery due to the float/voltage carry on that normal chargers do?
I've attached the manual for my EBL and I can see that it can be set to Lead-acid so if this would work, that would be great.
Really appreciate your help

 

[MisterB]

MisterB that's very interesting.
Yep, I just want to be able to charge my new 285ah leisure battery on hookup. Not bothered if it only charges to 98% tbh.
But.... I've read that using a "non-lithium" charger will bugger the battery due to the float/voltage carry on that normal chargers do?
I've attached the manual for my EBL and I can see that it can be set to Lead-acid so if this would work, that would be great.
Really appreciate your help

i am no expert, but all i can say is that i was advised that it wont cause any problems and it hasn't!

its worth reading the other threads if you need some reassurance ...... some of the advice given by well meaning people is obtained from 'reading' as opposed to some advice given by others that has been obtained by 'subject knowledge' ..... i fall into the category of following advice given by those with 'subject knowledge'.

all i can really add is that i have had no issues, battery still showing full health, no warnings etc and now into our third year and do virtually everything via the lithium and a Renogy 3000w inverter. we use a microwave, kettle, pizza oven, induction hob, george foreman grill and can also run the water heater for a short time or when driving - all on 240v and can use more than one appliance at a time ... our use of lpg is restricted to the fridge and heating if needed when off grid and we spend most of our time not on EHU.

next step is a compressor fridge and a diesel hot water/heater ......

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[Guigsy]

I've got a 20A IP22 with a 280Ah battery. I bought that size because if I'm plugged in, I'll probably be there all night, so it's plenty, even if the battery is pretty flat.

If it's been running at full charge for several hours, the fan comes on and while it's not noisy, you can hear it. Mine is stuffed on a plate in the back of the seat base, so it doesn't have great ventilation and it is right below our drop-down bed. It has an overnight switch in the app, which turns it to 10A for 8 hours to keep the fan off.

But the vast majority of the time, I leave it in 10A mode. Because that's all I need. So it stays cool and silent.

 

[MichaelT]

i am no expert, but all i can say is that i was advised that it wont cause any problems and it hasn't!

its worth reading the other threads if you need some reassurance ...... some of the advice given by well meaning people is obtained from 'reading' as opposed to some advice given by others that has been obtained by 'subject knowledge' ..... i fall into the category of following advice given by those with 'subject knowledge'.

all i can really add is that i have had no issues, battery still showing full health, no warnings etc and now into our third year and do virtually everything via the lithium and a Renogy 3000w inverter. we use a microwave, kettle, pizza oven, induction hob, george foreman grill and can also run the water heater for a short time or when driving - all on 240v and can use more than one appliance at a time ... our use of lpg is restricted to the fridge and heating if needed when off grid and we spend most of our time not on EHU.

next step is a compressor fridge and a diesel hot water/heater ......

Agree, I have turned my charger off and rely on solar and the B2B but could deploy it in absolute emergency if needed but as im never on EHU not sure when that would be. On my last van I used the charger on the GEL setting with no issues and the lithium battery was moved to my new van and works as it should.

 

[headlight]

MisterB that's very interesting.
Yep, I just want to be able to charge my new 285ah leisure battery on hookup. Not bothered if it only charges to 98% tbh.
But.... I've read that using a "non-lithium" charger will bugger the battery due to the float/voltage carry on that normal chargers do?
I've attached the manual for my EBL and I can see that it can be set to Lead-acid so if this would work, that would be great.
Really appreciate your help

I left my original Sargent PX 300 lead acid only charger in place when I switched to Lifepo4.
My PX 300 has a charge voltage of 14.4v and a float voltage of 13.6v, both OK for Lifepo4.
It has no desulfation stage.
It charges my Lifepo4 to about 95% which is fine, and I only go on EHU a couple of nights a year.
My solar MPPT and B2B have lithium settings and they get the battery to 100%.

 

[autorouter]

Yep, I just want to be able to charge my new 285ah leisure battery on hookup. Not bothered if it only charges to 98% tbh.
But.... I've read that using a "non-lithium" charger will bugger the battery due to the float/voltage carry on that normal chargers do?

A battery has an internal voltage that depends slightly on its state of charge. It's commonly called the 'resting voltage', but the technical term is 'internal electromotive force', or emf. To charge a battery, it is necessary to connect a power source that has a voltage higher than the resting voltage.This forces charge backwards into the battery and reverses the chemical reactions that generate the electrical current.

The upshot of this is, if the charger applies more than the resting voltage, it will charge the battery. Typically a lithium battery is best charged at about 14.2V to 14.4V, which is the flooded lead acid and gel absorption voltage setting. The voltage applied by the AGM setting is about 14.7V, and is too high for lithium batteries.

When the voltage drops to the 'float voltage', around 13.5V, then that is below the battery resting voltage. In theory the battery would send out charge because its resting voltage is higher, but there will be a diode in the charger to prevent any amps flowing back into the charger. So basically the 13.5V 'float voltage' will have no effect at all on the battery - it's just like switching the charger off.

 

[MisterB]

DuncT

i knew one of the grown ups would be along soon to clarify the issue ... thanks autorouter

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[jumar]

I'm one of the Lithium converts and Solar supporter Club, our club motto is. "Off Grid, save a Quid" (Just made that up)
....BUT...
We quite often find ourselves on Camperstops with FREE EHU...yes FREE..EHU...send a SAE with a wad of cash for current location list..
So, I'm not going to make myself look a bit of a plonka and put out my freestanding solar and tilt my roof panels, therefore the Lithium's get changed off the EHU via a Victron 20 amp charger.... especially if we have cloudy weather and a bit of rain, which we have now here in Murcia..as if you didn't know this...

 

[MisterB]

I'm one of the Lithium converts and Solar supporter Club, our club motto is. "Off Grid, save a Quid" (Just made that up)
....BUT...
We quite often find ourselves on Camperstops with FREE EHU...yes FREE..EHU...send a SAE with a wad of cash for current location list..
So, I'm not going to make myself look a bit of a plonka and put out my freestanding solar and tilt my roof panels, therefore the Lithium's get changed off the EHU via a Victron 20 amp charger.... especially if we have cloudy weather and a bit of rain, which we have now here in Murcia..as if you didn't know this...

i have just sent of a wad of cash, no idea where the country its from is, but ive heard that Monopoly has a great climate and lots of places for sale. hopefully that will suffice for the secret list ...?

 

[jumar]

i have just sent of a wad of cash, no idea where the country its from is, but ive heard that Monopoly has a great climate and lots of places for sale. hopefully that will suffice for the secret list ...?

Thanks... I'll forward the list as soon as the cash is received...as you are the first to respond, a Bonus Gift of Cassette emptying locations will be included .
We wish you many happy on Grid holidays...
ps...Still raining in Murcia...

 

[MisterB]

Thanks, your help in this matter is greatly appreciated, you truly are a leg end ......

From Sunny Clacton on Sea .... soon to be known as Clacton on Sun ....

 

[wireman]

A battery has an internal voltage that depends slightly on its state of charge. It's commonly called the 'resting voltage', but the technical term is 'internal electromotive force', or emf. To charge a battery, it is necessary to connect a power source that has a voltage higher than the resting voltage.This forces charge backwards into the battery and reverses the chemical reactions that generate the electrical current.

The upshot of this is, if the charger applies more than the resting voltage, it will charge the battery. Typically a lithium battery is best charged at about 14.2V to 14.4V, which is the flooded lead acid and gel absorption voltage setting. The voltage applied by the AGM setting is about 14.7V, and is too high for lithium batteries.

When the voltage drops to the 'float voltage', around 13.5V, then that is below the battery resting voltage. In theory the battery would send out charge because its resting voltage is higher, but there will be a diode in the charger to prevent any amps flowing back into the charger. So basically the 13.5V 'float voltage' will have no effect at all on the battery - it's just like switching the charger off.

Typically a lithium battery is best charged at about 14.2V to 14.4V, which is the flooded lead acid and gel absorption voltage setting. So. let this brain see if I have got it right. My motorhome is connected to the Schoudt EBL 99 when at home. Its got gel and led acid settings and is set to led acid. Will lithium use the 2volt for the motor battery if changed to lead acid if need be.? and it that it knows when to what I call trickle charge on the vehicle hab which usually stays on the 14.2 volts for the hab battery although I have caught it on 13.8 or 9 volts. I assume it doe this because the hab battery is left on whilst on EHU? Last battery lasted for 9 years before it stopped. Engine battery is still going ok. Or should I get a Schaudt booster to be on the safe side?

Hope that makes sense.

Tony

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[RioRob]

are you talking about when the motorhome is plugged in? i have used my in built charger on Lead Acid setting for two years, with no issues. it only charges up to around 98% of a 304Ah, but solar and driving add the rest ..... there are quite a few comments in other threads that might be worth reading before spending time and money. Of course a dedicated charger would always be the best option, but there are lots of best options in life although we often choose the most 'practical' and cost effective ....

Just wondering what voltage your built in charger on lead acid supplies to charge to 98%. The reason I ask is because my Sargent EC176 only supplies 13.8V constant, no bulk, no abs, no float which I guess is no good fro Lithium.

 

[Sewdhull]

Get a proper lithium battery charger.
Lithium batteries do not charge the same way as lead acid batteries, it's not all about voltage.
A lead acid charger won't know what to do with a lithium as far as charging stages are concerned.
It's ok if individuals want to do their own thing, a lead acid charger will not charge lithiums correctly, some chargers might not do anything awful but just undercharge them.
Not all lead acid chargers are the same.

Get a proper charger for your expensive a batteries, respect them, there's a huge amount of energy in them and many will rely on them.

 

[DuncT]

I think I'll end up getting a proper lithium charger but it's just the agro of connecting/setting up with the EBL thing and not setting fire to my van

Out of interest. This is the info on my EBL charger. Does that look like it would bugger my lithium battery if used?

 

[MisterB]

but just undercharge them.

this is a motorhome forum, never heard of anyone being undercharged, usually we end up paying a premium as the item is for a motorhome .... ........

 

[ian27]

I think I'll end up getting a proper lithium charger but it's just the agro of connecting/setting up with the EBL thing and not setting fire to my van

you can stop the EBL from ever doing AC to DC charging by pulling its DC fuse "Internes Lademodul". 2nd one from the left. If you leave the AC power to the EBL is still connected it will still send a trickle charge from leisure to the starter battery (but this is not done by the AC-DC charger, its confusing... the presence of AC closes a relay that allows small DC to go from leisure to starter).

If you pull AC power to the EBL completely that of course stops it charging, but that also disables the starter trickle charge as well so you then need to solve that another way. ablemail, battery master, lots of chat on here about those kind of products.

charger wise I using a 10 amp Victron IP65 (which is silent of course). may go larger at some point but I had it and it does the job.

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[TheMobileWanderer]

There are knowledgeable guys on here and I think, certainly imho, autorouter is one.
I also discovered this guy recently.
I don't know him and I haven't yet bought his book. I may do though.
He may provide an answer to your question because I seem to recall a video where he explained the charging differences.

I'll try to find it and re-post later.
Here it is:

Homepage ‣ Clever Solar Power

www.cleversolarpower.com

A quick google provided me with this.

Question: Can I use a normal charger on a lithium battery?

Answer: You should absolutely not use a charger meant for lead acid batteries on a lithium battery. Lithium batteries require a lithium charger, if you hook one up to a regular trickle charger it could start a fire.

 

[MichaelT]

There are knowledgeable guys on here and I think, certainly imho, autorouter is one.
I also discovered this guy recently.
I don't know him and I haven't yet bought his book. I may do though.
He may provide an answer to your question because I seem to recall a video where he explained the charging differences.

I'll try to find it and re-post later.

Homepage ‣ Clever Solar Power

www.cleversolarpower.com

A quick google provided me with this.

Question: Can I use a normal charger on a lithium battery?

Answer: You should absolutely not use a charger meant for lead acid batteries on a lithium battery. Lithium batteries require a lithium charger, if you hook one up to a regular trickle charger it could start a fire.

Rubbish, it's not ideal but ok occasionally if needed and that's from a battery manufacturer. Ran mine for 4 years ok and battery still in A1 condition.

 

[autorouter]

Out of interest. This is the info on my EBL charger. Does that look like it would bugger my lithium battery if used?

There is a small switch on the front panel of the EBL 252, which selects between AGM and standard Lead-acid (= Blei-saure). As I said in a previous post, the AGM setting (14.7V) is too high for lithium, so make sure it is set to the Blei-saure option, which is 14.4V.

If you get a charger that outputs up to 15A, you can feed it in through the 2-way connector on the front panel, labelled Block 3. Pin1 is negative, Pin2 is positive. It connects to the battery through a fuse labelled 'Zusatz Ladegerat' (= auxiliary charger), a 20A fuse will be OK. The connectors are Mate'N'Lok (MNL) with separate pins, available at specialist auto electrics suppliers like 12VoltPlanet.

Mate N Lok Universal Connector Pair - 2 Way

2 way Mate N Lok connectors for 0.5-2.0mm² cable provide secure and robust multiple connections. Supplied as a pair of male/female housings with all terminals.

www.12voltplanet.co.uk

If the charger is over 15A, best to wire it direct to the leisure battery, bypassing the EBL

 

[autorouter]

A quick google provided me with this.

Question: Can I use a normal charger on a lithium battery?

Answer: You should absolutely not use a charger meant for lead acid batteries on a lithium battery. Lithium batteries require a lithium charger, if you hook one up to a regular trickle charger it could start a fire.

That is the right answer to the wrong question. In general, lithium batteries of different types should be charged with a lithium battery charger. That includes phone batteries, e-bike batteries and car (EV) batteries. Most lithium batteries are susceptible to thermal runaway if slightly damaged, by the wrong charger for example. The chemicals inside them react together, and can produce their own oxygen, emitting a highly toxic smoke as an added bonus. If a fire starts, it can be almost impossible to put out.

However motorhome batteries are always of the Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) type, not Lithium-Cobalt, Lithium Polymer etc. LiFePO4 batteries are not susceptible to thermal runaway, and will not catch fire if damaged. Using a normal charger on a LiFePO4 battery will not cause a fire. Some chargers are fine, although they may not charge to the full 100%. Some chargers will overcharge for various reasons. So you need to check what type of charger you have, and if it is suitable. Many are fine.

 

[DuncT]

autorouter This is really helpful, thanks.
I just want the easiest way to change my setup over to lithium. I'm not bothered about the absolute best setup. Just one that's safe and works.
I'd ideally like to keep the existing wiring as
If I bypass the EBL with the mains and/or b2b charger then I think this will cause problems with other stuff (like the control panel shower stuff and power to other items like the fridge)

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[MisterB]

autorouter This is really helpful, thanks.
I just want the easiest way to change my setup over to lithium. I'm not bothered about the absolute best setup. Just one that's safe and works.
I'd ideally like to keep the existing wiring as
If I bypass the EBL with the mains and/or b2b charger then I think this will cause problems with other stuff (like the control panel shower stuff and power to other items like the fridge)

i told you the grown ups are helpful and do actually know what theyre talking about ...

 

[Just smiffy]

Rather defeats having lithium if you’ve gotta plug in…

 

[Pausim]

Just wondering what voltage your built in charger on lead acid supplies to charge to 98%. The reason I ask is because my Sargent EC176 only supplies 13.8V constant, no bulk, no abs, no float which I guess is no good fro Lithium.

A fixed 13.8V is probably not enough to charge any battery type properly. It would likely do less damage to a lithium one because they do not mind being under charged.

Question: Can I use a normal charger on a lithium battery?

Answer: You should absolutely not use a charger meant for lead acid batteries on a lithium battery.

My lithium battery is a Roamer one and they told me the charger in my Schaudt EBL is fine with it. I don’t doubt one with a lithium profile would be better but the gel/lead acid charger in the EBL has a bulk charge voltage that is very close to the ideal voltage, it just has a longer absorption phase.

 

[MisterB]

There are knowledgeable guys on here and I think, certainly imho, autorouter is one.
I also discovered this guy recently.
I don't know him and I haven't yet bought his book. I may do though.
He may provide an answer to your question because I seem to recall a video where he explained the charging differences.

I'll try to find it and re-post later.
Here it is:

Homepage ‣ Clever Solar Power

www.cleversolarpower.com

A quick google provided me with this.

Question: Can I use a normal charger on a lithium battery?

Answer: You should absolutely not use a charger meant for lead acid batteries on a lithium battery. Lithium batteries require a lithium charger, if you hook one up to a regular trickle charger it could start a fire.

of course he doesnt run a business selling 'stuff' you might not need does he .....

 

[TheMobileWanderer]

You can be as sceptical as you like. We all make our own choice.

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