Base van bought

[LesleyC]

So, after about 3 months of intensive looking, and not finding anything 'right' for us, we have decided to buy a van, and have something built into it. Its all come together in the last couple of days, and we've found a base (Renault Traffic, LWB, high top) and met with a converter that we like. Now, we have to tell the converter everything we want. Umm yes ... well ... this is our first camper, and we've never actually used one, and don't know what vital bits of gear we may be missing, or what work arounds the experienced have for potential problems we're racking our brains over. So ... I thought, if I post the info that I'm emailing to the converter guy here, any/all input from the experienced would be fantastic!!!

Warning ... its long!!! It also makes reference to a long conversation we had with him when we met him, but I think the gist of that conversation is in the file.

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Giving 'birth' to this baby is soooo exciting! We'll be using it mostly for support on long distance cycle rides (husband is a bit of a lunatic in this area, and wants to tackle some seriously long events, so needs capacity for seriously long training rides).

 

[Puddleduck]

I think a "proper" cassette loo and shower would be important - you don't want to have to shower in a cold outside space (even if it is enclosed) if you can avoid it. Our shower area is used for storage when it is not in use so isn't wasted space. In a small space you do need to make every cubic inch do double duty.

What is above the cab seats? Hope you plan to put storage up there! Our car is taller than normal and has the facility for an internal roof rack - something else to think about.

 

[Puddleduck]

Its important to us that we can just take the crates of tools/spares from the garage to the van without having to repack the crates' contents into different storage areas in the van. If we have to spend too much time doing hat sort of thing, getting ready to go on a trip will become a chore, and we'll find excuses not to do it. Yup, we're lazy, but at least we know it

What about this idea? Put your loo/bathroom at the back leaving the doors able to open into the rear awning and use the shower / loo space for the boxes when they are not on the annex. That way you still have the storage where you need it and don't have to repack. (used to be able to get awnings that went over the backs of van for exactly the reasons you want - Carannex or something)

Just did a websearch and they are still trading: http://www.caranex.com/ We had one years and years ago and it was great. Not sure if they are still as good Even if not suitable it gives you some ideas.

Talking about the crates of parts, think about making them so they swing out from a corner rather than stack one on top of another, A bit like a kitchen corner cupboard carousal...... hard to explain in words. Again this would mean you could swing the crate you wanted out, or all of the crates out of the way to use the facilities without having to unpack and repack everything.

 

[LesleyC]

Our plan is to use motorway services showers/campsite showers when we come across a campsite at the right time for spending the night. The outside shower is only really there for washing off road dirt/bikes. Because we're moving every day, and may need to use the loo if necessary in the middle of nowhere, we've been thinking that if we were to store things in a shower/toilet cubicle, its going to be a mission to move everything to use the loo. Apart from when sleeping, and preparing food, the van will pretty much be moving or just stopped on the side of a road, briefly. So not really any time that we'll be fully unpacked, and we don't want to have to be moving stuff from one place in the van to another all the time.

We considered having a shower tray sunk into the floor between the bed/seat and the chairs in the cab, with a insert floor for when its not a shower, but the floor would be raised about 10cm for that to happen, and having now found, and stood in the van, that would make the roof clearance marginal.


There is a already pretty good storage above the cab already, between the cab roof, and the high top roof. It will be getting some sort of door on it when it gets converted. That space is currently earmarked for a couple of outside chairs and outside table.

 

[Puddleduck]

This is the sort of thing I am talking about regarding swivel storage but on a bigger scale where the outer casing would be your shower unit and the drawers are your crates.

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[Minxy]

Rear awning - I just did a quick 'google' search and lots came up which should give you some ideas:

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Some ideas of the type of conversion/furniture layout I think you're looking at doing ...

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slide out storage boxes:

http://car.pege.org/2005-renault-trafic/luggage-box.htm

sit down shower ...

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/415949715561538631/

 

[DBK]

If I read your post above correctly you have a van 5.4m long? If so there is a useful trick, which I think originates from narrow boats. This is to not have a full length bed but to have a gap for your feet which is underneath a wardrobe or cupboard. Rather than me try to explain it have a look at the layout of the Murvi Pimento which uses this idea. The third picture on this page shows the general idea. http://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/...rhome-review-cherry-picked-scene-setter-7177/
This could gain you useful storage space which might otherwise be just fresh air.

 

[Minxy]

Funny I was thinking of exactly the same 'feet slot' scenario too with the van being short ... East Neuk do a similar 'slot' for feet on some of their conversions. It may also be worth considering utilising the swivelled cab seats to make up the bed too which will allow for a different layout to the standard 'vw' style one.

The below is an example:

http://www.lvdltd.co.uk/index2.html

 

[Paddywack]

If you want some ideas for storing bikes and crates have a look here http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/garage-on-a-pvc.102398/

 

[TheBig1]

to be honest, I think you are barking mad and have approached this without doing enough homework. sorry and all that

what you have described has been done many times before. pop onto ebay and look at motocross vans. they have ALL the features you are after plus more and theres always dozens for sale. better to risk buying a cheaper second hand van first than potentially wasting money recreating the wheel

well you did ask

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[LesleyC]

Just did a websearch and they are still trading: http://www.caranex.com/ Not sure if they are still as good Even if not suitable it gives you some ideas.

Talking about the crates of parts, think about making them so they swing out from a corner rather than stack one on top of another, A bit like a kitchen corner cupboard carousal...... hard to explain in words. Again this would mean you could swing the crate you wanted out, or all of the crates out of the way to use the facilities without having to unpack and repack everything.

Had a look at the caranex awnings. They don't make them tall enough (van doors go up to about 2.3m, and their heights stop just under 2m. But, they have lead to a design mod on the one I'm planning to make.

I see where you are going with the crates swinging out of the bathroom. My first thought is how would the bathroom door close while showering. Hmmm. I guess is it was a sliding door, and the vertical pole for the swinging contraption was mounted outside, and the door was always open with the boxes inside we could make something like that work. Biggest drawback would be that the top box on the carousel thing would be at a rather high level for someone standing on the ground outside trying to access it. Will have to do some sketches with this idea though! So far, I can't see an obvious way to get to the bathroom witihout going outside the van, because the bed/seats would block it off, but shall doodle around this concept.

 

[LesleyC]

Rear awning - I just did a quick 'google' search and lots came up which should give you some ideas:

Broken Link Removed

Some ideas of the type of conversion/furniture layout I think you're looking at doing ...

Broken Link Removed

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slide out storage boxes:

http://car.pege.org/2005-renault-trafic/luggage-box.htm

sit down shower ...

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/415949715561538631/

Broken Link Removed is pretty close to the awning we're after ... just needs to carry on past the end of the doors, and make provision for the doors to be open a little wider.

The race van conversions all seem to be layed out in such a way that there is no access from the cab to the rear. We've look at loads of pictures and floor plans of them (but haven't gone and seen any 'in the flesh'), but discounted them firstly on access from the cab, and 2ndly that they mostly have beds above the garages, with little to no head room. We have seen beds that slide up and down, where you sleep stretched out across the width of the van, but these beds have only seen in vans that are wider than ours. The narrowness that we want comes at a price.

Love love love the tray for the storage boxes!!! Have not come across anything like that in vans or online. Maybe didn't look hard enough, because we just sort of went, ok, we can put boxes under there, that will work for us, and moved on to figuring out the next bit. That will work brilliantly! Sheet updated with photo and link.

We have looked at a few things with showers like that ... I like the idea that dirty cyclist can enter van via the shower, and not drag road dirt in with him. This style restricts storage of the boxes of spares though ... but the carousel idea along with this could be workable. Will have to doodle with it, and the implications for the bed length, and feet overhanging in a different position.

 

[LesleyC]

Rather than me try to explain it have a look at the layout of the Murvi Pimento which uses this idea. The third picture on this page shows the general idea. http://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/...rhome-review-cherry-picked-scene-setter-7177/
This could gain you useful storage space which might otherwise be just fresh air.

Yes ... Extra storage can never be a bad thing, can it?? That van looks lovely. Will have to try some drawing on a cupboard overhanging on the bed.

Having seating in the middle of the van appeals to me, because when the sliding door is open, you have an extended indoor/outdoor living space. We haven't been able to figure out a way to make that happen with easy lazy movement of the bike stuff though. But ... (see next post, haven't got the hange of the mu

Funny I was thinking of exactly the same 'feet slot' scenario too with the van being short ... East Neuk do a similar 'slot' for feet on some of their conversions. It may also be worth considering utilising the swivelled cab seats to make up the bed too which will allow for a different layout to the standard 'vw' style one.

The below is an example:

http://www.lvdltd.co.uk/index2.html

Like that example ... and that was built into a short wheel base, so maybe we could do something like that at the back, but instead of positioning in right at the back, use the extra 40cm at the back instead of in the living area at the front, to create room for the crates, and have a wider counter space.

Better get the pencil sharpener out!

Edit: Especially like the way the potty is integrated in that one.

 

[LesleyC]

to be honest, I think you are barking mad and have approached this without doing enough homework. sorry and all that

what you have described has been done many times before. pop onto ebay and look at motocross vans. they have ALL the features you are after plus more and theres always dozens for sale. better to risk buying a cheaper second hand van first than potentially wasting money recreating the wheel

well you did ask

You absolutely shouldn't be sorry!! And yes, I did ask and yes I do want people to poke as many holes in my logic as possible. Every question/hole poke leads to extra thought, and either 'yes, what we're envisioning still makes more sense to us' or 'maybe we can change/improve that based on this idea'. And yes, we are barking mad. Not even just specifically relating to this - its a universally acknowledged thing. Here is the plaque next to our front door. Made it my avatar That should at least clear up any sanity issues!


We have looked at the motocross vans. Too wide, too long, and mostly too heavy, and mostly don't have access from the cab to the back.

How much homework is enough? That is sort of a 'how long is a piece of string' type of question.

We've been mildly looking and thinking about what we want from a van for about a year. Kicked up the search and refining what we do and don't want for about 3 months, and for the last two months, its essentially been my full time occupation ... all day, and most evenings, except for 1 week I had off towards the end of June, after throwing in the towel and 'Saying, we're never going to find anything that works for us' so I'm just not going to look anymore. We have traveled in all directions to look at vans all over the place. and stretched out (or attempted to stretch out, but couldn't) on innumerable camper van beds. We've had our heads turned by some gorgeous vans, a couple of which we came really really close to buying, but thankfully didn't, because they were all a little too wide, and a bit too long. Its amazing how much different the extra 15cm/6" of a ducato (and equivalents) make to the interior compared to a Trafic (and equivalent) width. Although they look a lot bigger (I think its because the sides are more or less straight up instead of angling inwards), the Trafic/Vivaro/Primastar is the same width as a VW Transporter. We have an extra 4-8" on the length of a lwb VW, but other than that, and the sides being straighter, there isn't really anymore space on the inside.

Something that seriously reduced the number of available already converted options is that the cab MUST have aircon. It didn't take long to learn that the vast majority of camper conversions do not. We did not want to retrofit aircon, because retrofits generally don't work as well, and are quite expensive fits too. If we were intending to use it to get somewhere, and be there a few days, this wouldn't matter, because we like moving about the country in the early mornings, when its not needed. But, every day, the van will be moving 20-25km, then sitting on the side of the road for 40 mins or so, and moving another 20-25km and sitting on the side of the road again (except when there is something in the area I fancy seeing, along the way, and spending time in a vehicle without aircon in the midday sun is just not going to happen. Like ever.

 

[Puddleduck]

Paper and pencils are cheap = draw, draw, draw until you are pretty sure you have it correct. You may well still change your mind once you get started on the real thing though

When we built our house I drew the rooms / doors / cupboards / light switches etc out on the floor so I could walk through and make sure it worked. I changed a few things at that stage such as the way doors opened.

We have a shower room coming off our utility at home which means than when we come in dirty / wet we come in through the garage, into the utility room, dirty clothes in the washer, we go into the shower and then into the bedroom to put clean clothes on. We also have a wardrobe that is the dividing wall between bedroom and utility and has doors that open front and back so you can access both hanging and drawer space from either side. Easy to do at the build stage, not so easy later on

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[LesleyC]

I'm planning on drawing all over the floor of the van after picking it up. Chalk and a damp cloth in the planning stages, some insulation tape for the floor markings that become 'permament'. I think having the van for a couple of months before the conversion happens will be very beneficial, especially seeing as we have to use it for a 8.5 day ride before the conversion happens. We will take out the bulkhead asap, but won't be able to change the cab seats, so will get a jolly good idea of just how much of an issue it is to not be able to access the back from the cab (but I pretty much already know that every time it is raining, I'm going too be groaning about having to walk round). Cruise control, fog lights, parking sensors and rear camera can get fitted now too (asap). And yes, for me the sensors & camera are essential in the van ... I'm not used to the size, and most of the time there won't be anyone in it too send out and see where my rear end is when maneuvering. Hardly use them in the car, but will feel more comfortable reversing in the van with them.

We have a similar set up at home, but not shower or cupboard. A couple of dressing gowns and slippers in the utility room deal with getting upstairs to the shower, but if we'd built this house, I would have a shower down there too. Every now and then we contemplate having one put in, but I think about the dust and mess of having builders on site, and stop thinking about it.
Your wardrobe sounds good! I've seen some kitchen cupboards and drawers which are accessible from both the kitchen and dining room (cutlery, crockery), but never a wardrobe.

 

[DBK]

It might leave you with just too little space to fit everything in but one option might be to simply partition off say the rear two feet of the van with a vertical bulkhead and confine all the cycling bits in this area. The bike could hang vertically say on one side together with other bulky stuff like a maintenance stand or spare wheels and the other side be fitted with shelves for all the crates. It depends on the hight but if you had to take the front wheel off the bike that wouldn't be too much of a task. If you need a tap for washing bikes then fit that in as well. The image below shows this on a Murvi Morrelo XL which is a metre longer than your van but then it also has a full sized washroom and if you are happy to compromise on that then you just might get everything to fit. The XL only has this arrangement on one side but it could be fitted across the full width for your needs. You might also of course want to to speak to the OH about taking less stuff" I've done a couple of cycle trips of over a 1000 km and the only spares I took were a few spare spokes, brake pads, a couple of inner tubes and a few small tools. You will need more but crates of stuff?

And it might seem only a detail at this point but worth thinking about finishes. Most home conversions I've seen look like the inside of a sauna - all polished wood. It can be used to show off great craftsmanship but to me it looks very old fashioned and not a little "twee" but of course each to their own and many love the look.

 

[LesleyC]

We have 80Litres of clean water and 60Litres (I think) of grey water; I'd halve those capacities.

Might add a third seat, removeable, for use when we visit the kids, for days out.

Oh; I'd fit a hinged bikerack so that we can access the "underbed shed" without having to remove bikes. Definately wouldn't use a Fiamma door mounted one.
We are both 5'8" ish, and we made a longitudinal bed work, which was the main requirement of the layout.
Hope this helps

OK ... put half the capacity of what you have on my list for the water tanks. May consider slightly more for the fresh, for the showers, which at this point, won't be filling the grey tanks.
Like the idea of a removable seat, for if we need to carry an extra person.
Bike rack is creating (more) grey hairs. Because we need the towbar for the trike, I can't see how we can have anything other than a screwed into the door rack from Fiamma for bikes Will use our towbar mounted bike rack for the journey before conversion, which I'm sure will drive us insane, because it has to be removed to open the doors/boot of a car. It was bought to carry the tandem (not easy to get racks for those 12 years ago, a little easier now), and finding something that would accommodate the length of a tandem meant we had to forego luxuries like tilting. Well actually, we had to forego anything remotely luxurious for a rack to take the tandem back them.

The downside of any towbar mounted rack is that it would have to be removed for the workshop area to work, with easy access to the crates of tools/spares. If the rack isn't taken off to work on the bikes, the boxes either all need to come out onto the ground (which may be wet/muddy), or the rack to be removed. Seeing as repairs may need to be carried out in odd places, a solution which involves just opening the van doors (and slinging up an awning if its raining) will be quicker and easier.

 

[LesleyC]

If you want some ideas for storing bikes and crates have a look here http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/garage-on-a-pvc.102398/

The sliding tray the bikes are on is brilliant! That could form a part of a workshop out the back too, expecially if coupled with a sliding tray for the crates. And, there would probably still be enough headroom above a bed built on top of it. Will have to play around in the empty van and see if we can get enough length going across the van to sleep properly. Nothing we've look at with a garage has been as clever as that!

 

[LesleyC]

It might leave you with just too little space to fit everything in but one option might be to simply partition off say the rear two feet of the van with a vertical bulkhead and confine all the cycling bits in this area.

Some of the photos I've seen from Funsters via this thread, is making me want to try and work something out along those lines. Especially fastpat's rear garage. I don't think I'd want the bulkhead all the way up, cos it would be nice to be able to chat to Nick while he's working on the bike, and I'm cosy inside. Sometimes anyway ... other times I'll probably want him out of sight and hearing

That sort of arrangement would keep the habitable bits of the van grease-free though. The spares/tools etc are currently in two 45 litre crates, but these can be replaced with other crates of different sizes to make things work. He manages the 1 day/450km rides with just what he carries on the bike with him, but the advantage of the camper is to have a full workshop away from home. So far there has only been two mechanical breakdowns that required him being picked up, and one that he should have called for a pickup (broken seatpost clamp, finished the ride, doing the last 50km standing, and could barely walk, and absolutely not cycle for the next few days).

The further we are away from home, the more important it becomes to have a good range of spares/tools with us.

it also has a full sized washroom and if you are happy to compromise on that then you just might get everything to fit.

We are. Its impossible to have it all, and shower facilities are available elsewhere. I shall probably never use the external shower we're planning, and we're not concerned about it being cold in the shower/workshop awning, because the water will be hot, and it takes much longer to cool down after a ride that it will take to shower etc. As long as we can get the road dirt from riding in wet weather off him before he comes into the living spaces, we're happy. The advantage of being to wash off the bike if its particularly grimy after wet weather riding gives the 'outside shower' a plus 1.

If we did find space for a proper washroom inside with a different layout configuration that will work for us, I think we would stll need to consider having a little shower head/hose unit to the outside for the bike.

And it might seem only a detail at this point but worth thinking about finishes.

Whatever won't show up grease smudges Matt finishes, not shiny. Tempted to go with light colours to make everything appear more spacious, but, don't want to have copious quantities of cleaners on hands for the oopsies, or to be stressed out about the interior getting ruined. We will have some good quality dustsheets to lay down if anything requires the bike/wheels being brought inside to fix, but would rather budget for having it reupholstered every few years, and getting the fixed furniture repainted/refinished on the outside than being over the top about everything being kept pristine. We feel we want to relax rather than stress about messing up something that is lovely. That doesn't mean we intend to trash the van ... just that we want to be relaxed about little things, and accept that there are probably going to be absent minded incidents.

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[yellabellyex]

Busbiker NL bike carrier £1100 approx I think! Good exchange rate tho'.
Or, I've been looking for a fabricator to make a variation............
regards
alan b

 

[Paddywack]

What I can't quite understand is that as cycling is part of this big adventure why you would be prepared to even consider hanging, what I can only presume is going to be a reasonably priced bike, on the back of the van. You do know that a common form of theft from vans is just to cut straight through the aluminium bike racks, and take the rack, bike and any locks used? Might just be worth considering the security issue.

 

[Paddywack]

What I can't quite understand is that as cycling is part of this big adventure why you would be prepared to even consider hanging, what I can only presume is going to be a reasonably priced bike, on the back of the van. You do know that a common form of theft from vans is just to cut straight through the aluminium bike racks, and take the rack, bike and any locks used? Might just be worth considering the security issue.

 

[Puddleduck]

Don't dismiss the laundry storage ideas in IKEA for bike and other bits

 

[LesleyC]

Busbiker NL bike carrier £1100 approx I think! Good exchange rate tho'.
Or, I've been looking for a fabricator to make a variation............
regards
alan b

Very clever! Will show it to Nick, and see if he fancies very expensive bike rack or more other bike stuff. That so isn't coming out of my camper budget

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[LesleyC]

Don't dismiss the laundry storage ideas in IKEA for bike and other bits

Ikea storage methods are used all over this house is strange and inventful ways ...

What I can't quite understand is that as cycling is part of this big adventure why you would be prepared to even consider hanging, what I can only presume is going to be a reasonably priced bike, on the back of the van. You do know that a common form of theft from vans is just to cut straight through the aluminium bike racks, and take the rack, bike and any locks used? Might just be worth considering the security issue.

We're intending too use the heavy duty chains that get used when doing long distance solo rides, and locking them to the locking thing that is already on the van from the previous owner, using a motion sensitive padlock with an alarm. The bike security aspect does worry me though. On the plus side though, as we always use the Bike Whisperer before buying new bikes, to make sure we get the right one, it turns out that Nick's riding style/body shape means that the perfect frames for him, are not of the we'll be totally bankrupt if anything happens to this bike variety.

I am very taken with your rear end though, fastpat. I don't think I have ever seen anything that clever, and am looking at trying to make something work with that configuration. The bikes sliding out is genius! All those hooks could host a lot of pockets of tools. Love the side effect of having a 'drying room' too.

 

[Puddleduck]

I've just been watching a council contractor (not a council van but a sub-contractor). He had tubs and crate fastened to the inside of his van rear doors so when he opened it the tubs and crates swung out with the doors. He had steps at the back so getting up to the top of the doors was simple for him (and it wasn't a hi-top. Perhaps you could use the idea.... and with an extension piece to the door at a right angle (so that when the door is shut the extension sits along the side wall and when the door is open it forms a screen at the back of the van you have more area inside the van without having to hump crates around. The top shelves / crates / rack which would be too high to access from outside could be used for light bu bulky inside stuff like loo roll, kitchen roll, bin bags and the like

I love thinking about ways to do stuff I do....... not always practical solutions but ideas that might help someone When we win the lottery I am going to have a custom conversion that will accommodate our kayaks and our cycles - at the same time!!!! Don't ell Martin but I am hoping that Autogas will say to fit an LPG tank and t won't cost much - then we would have a space ventilated locker where we could keep wet stuff

 

[Puddleduck]

The spares/tools etc are currently in two 45 litre crates, but these can be replaced with other crates of different sizes to make things work. a ride that it will take to shower etc. As long as we can get the road dirt from riding in wet weather off him before he comes into the living spaces, we're happy. The advantage of being to wash off the bike if its particularly grimy after wet weather riding gives the 'outside shower' a plus 1.

I think we would stll need to consider having a little shower head/hose unit to the outside for the bike.

Smaller crates or boxes with labels and places for everything and everything in it's place is the way to go...... One or two big crates mean you waste a lot of time looking for stuff.

For an outside shower we put the shower head (which is on a longish flexi pipe) out of the washroom window and yes, washing off stinky gear is a must. Neoprene has it's own particular odour...... wet or dry!

 

[TheBig1]

The Dutch do bike racks far better than anyone else. I have seen a few German and Dutch van conversions using side hinged mounts. even see them on 4x4s occasionally

 

[LesleyC]

tubs and crate fastened to the inside of his van rear doors so when he opened it the tubs and crates swung out with the doors.

I've suggested this to 'him who cycles'. Even suggested that if I were to make hanging pockets that could go on the doors, he could just hang 'em in the utility room when at home, and have everything organised (well maybe not quite everythng). We are looking to have some storage put on the rear doors ... even if we need to take a pocket organiser system down and put it in a box while moving, it should make working a breeze.

Perhaps you could use the idea.... and with an extension piece to the door at a right angle (so that when the door is shut the extension sits along the side wall and when the door is open it forms a screen at the back of the van you have more area inside the van without having to hump crates around.

We'd need to have free space a door width in from the back with no furniture for it to swing round ... which is a LOT of space. But ... if your extension was hinged onto the unhinged middle side of the van door, it could be opened outwards, extending the length of the door, and give support to the awning, meaning I wouldn't have to be creative with using tent poles or something to support it. Potential there!!

I love thinking about ways to do stuff I do....... not always practical solutions but ideas that might help someone

Me too

Smaller crates or boxes with labels and places for everything and everything in it's place is the way to go...... One or two big crates mean you waste a lot of time looking for stuff.

Agreed! But not my stuff, so I try not to interfere too much with the storage of it etc, and pretend I'm deaf when something doesn't come immediately to hand

I am hoping that Autogas will say to fit an LPG tank and t won't cost much - then we would have a space ventilated locker where we could keep wet stuff

Neoprene has it's own particular odour...... wet or dry![/QUOTE]

Yes it does! Although I find the UK water too cold to indulge in any water activities, I do have neoprene odour memories, and there are a few wetsuits up in the loft, with their life vest buddies, and a sit upon kayak in the garage that really should be rehomed. Shouldn't have moved it, but didn't realise quite how cold the water would be, even in summer, with a wetsuit!