Banning pub stops??

[Terry]

Councils are the regulatory/enforcement bodies for the legislation (as they are with trading standards, food premises hygiene &c &c).

That’s why they don’t get enforced. The council simply doesn’t have enough enforcement people.

 

[chaser]

Councils are the regulatory/enforcement bodies for the legislation (as they are with trading standards, food premises hygiene &c &c).

Doesn't really answer my question though.

 

[GJH]

Doesn't really answer my question though.

I thought you were asking why councils got involved.

Having looked again I take it you are asking "What possible harm does it cause?"
See post https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/banning-pub-stops.319422/page-3#post-6580112

 

[Terry]

Doesn't really answer my question though.

The site owners probably think it takes away custom, just the same as the pub thinks it brings in custom.
Although the five van rule should apply there are pubs around here that allow a dozen or more vans to stay every weekend. None are members of any club simply customers of the pub which like it or not makes it illegal.

 

[Terry]

Another thing none are parked the regulators 6 meters apart as such they cannot claim it to be a rally

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[MisterB]

trying to refresh my memory, but if unauthorised parking is on private land, how long is it before they have the right to remove your vehicle ?

Scenario

Motorhome owner "Good evening Landlord/Landlady, I have illegally parked my motorhome/camper on your carpark overnight"

Landlord/Landlady " it is illegal to do so, you must remove your vehicle within (number of hours) or else I will arrange for your vehicle to be removed in line with the law, this your notice to remove your vehicle from private land" - and a written notice is handed to motorhome owner.

Motorhome owner " that's very unfair, can I have a pint of lager, a glass of red wine and your meal menu please?"

Landlord/Landlady " yes Sir, that will be £8 please, table four is vacant"

.........

 

[hja]

Another thing none are parked the regulators 6 meters apart as such they cannot claim it to be a rally

What 6 m regulations?

 

[jongood]

What possible harm does it cause anyone apart from the pub owner if they leave litter, I don't know why it is even discussed.
What the hell has it got to do with councils?

I,m talking about council car parks, like little roodee. Most of them are empty for more hours than they re occupied. Bourton on the water is a good model.

By illegal dumping, I mean black waste.

 

[Steve and Denise]

If Weatherspoons did pub stops they would be full of Funsters 365

 

[GJH]

What 6 m regulations?

It's the recommended spacing for fire safety. Lots of information available if you Google it.
If I remember correctly (haven't checked today) it's a legal requirement (in the UK anyway) for static caravan sites and became an insurance requirement for touring sites and rallies several years ago.

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[jongood]

What 6 m regulations?

The outdated ones meant to deal with fire spread that no other country seems to bother about.

 

[GJH]

I,m talking about council car parks, like little roodee. Most of them are empty for more hours than they re occupied. Bourton on the water is a good model.

From my research in years gone by there are various reasons in different places.
Councils will normally explain their reasons on request.

 

[jongood]

From my research in years gone by there are various reasons in different places.
Councils will normally explain their reasons on request.

The often cited reasons is that it will be abused especially by whatever we re currently permitted to call those that pay no taxes. IMO thats a copout because that would happen anyway and legislation already exists to deal with the rest of it.

 

[Terry]

The outdated ones meant to deal with fire spread that no other country seems to bother about.

When in Rome etc, we are talking about in UK who by our nature tend to follow the law - unless you’re one of the traveler people who the don’t take any notice
I personally like the odd pub stop same as 5 van sites

 

[Minxy]

I wonder if Britstops can become a club, that would mean premises that signed up to them could be exempted and the punters wanting to stop could become members of Britstops, it would at least allow some pubs to continue to off the facility to members.

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[jongood]

When in Rome etc, we are talking about in UK who by our nature tend to follow the law - unless you’re one of the traveler people who the don’t take any notice
I personally like the odd pub stop same as 5 van sites

Ive always wondered whether this is guidance or a legal requirement. I could see little or no inclination to police it in a pubstop or car park and who would be considered liable?

 

[GJH]

The often cited reasons is that it will be abused especially by whatever we re currently permitted to call those that pay no taxes. IMO thats a copout because that would happen anyway and legislation already exists to deal with the rest of it.

On the contrary. When I contacted every council in the country, multiple times, in previous years that reason was given by a mere handful rather than being often cited.

 

[Terry]

Ive always wondered whether this is guidance or a legal requirement. I could see little or no inclination to police it in a pubstop or car park and who would be considered liable?

The landlord would be liable as he owns the pub, but as you say little or no inclination to police it BTW it is a legal requirement now so anyone risks being prosecuted. I doubt that happening any time soon simply because enforcement officers will tell you to stop doing whatever part of the law you’re breaking. If you persist then you suffer the consequences-simple
Perhaps a big pub chain could challenge the law? They may have more clout than smaller clubs taking on the big 2 CC MH clubs

 

[hja]

It's the recommended spacing for fire safety. Lots of information available if you Google it.
If I remember correctly (haven't checked today) it's a legal requirement (in the UK anyway) for static caravan sites and became an insurance requirement for touring sites and rallies several years ago.

My comment was tongue in cheek. What applies to static caravans is one thing. Their origins are as permanent homes. Much of the other “ regulation” is related to planning conditions. I don’t think anyone can produce a single set of regulations that applies universally in England let alone GB or UK - please correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[Steve and Denise]

As far as I see it their pub their rules and tell any nosey parkers to leave the property to many stuffed shirts with clip boards trying to justify their jobs

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[jongood]

On the contrary. When I contacted every council in the country, multiple times, in previous years that reason was given by a mere handful rather than being often cited.

I'm really interested to know what the more popular reason was? and guessing that you did it while you still had your very useful website- would they still be current?

 

[nicholsong]

The legislation states "In this Part of this Act the expression “caravan site” means land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed."
So, whilst a patron might initially use the car park for parking whilst enjoying what the pub sells, as soon as he/she starts to use the motorhome for a form of human habitation it becomes subject to the legislation and the landlord requires a site licence or exemption to stay within the law (whether it is OK with him or not).
Use of Eastbourne seafront (like other roads) is subject to different legislation. As I established some 16 years ago (where did that time go?), there is no national legislation which either specifically permits or prevents habitation of a motorhome at the roadside (unless it becomes a problem). Thus the distinction does not arise in that case.

I have just re-read this thread and in particular the quotation in the Act defining "caravan site"(highlighted above).

My analysis is that if a householder permits visiting friends or relatives to park their MH on their drive or yard for the purpose of human habitation that the piece of land comes within that definition of "caravan site".

It could be argued that the Act in its totality was never designed to require the owner of a private house to obtain a licence or exemption in such circumstances.

It could be further argued that by extension the landlord of a pub, in similar circumstances, should not be required to obtain a licence or exemption.

Discuss.

 

[chaser]

I wonder if Britstops can become a club, that would mean premises that signed up to them could be exempted and the punters wanting to stop could become members of Britstops, it would at least allow some pubs to continue to off the facility to members.

Never thought about this. Does it put britstops out of business?

 

[SVMC15]

I have just re-read this thread and in particular the quotation in the Act defining "caravan site"(highlighted above).

My analysis is that if a householder permits visiting friends or relatives to park their MH on their drive or yard for the purpose of human habitation that the piece of land comes within that definition of "caravan site".

It could be argued that the Act in its totality was never designed to require the owner of a private house to obtain a licence or exemption in such circumstances.

The first paragraph of the first schedule states that "A site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a caravan site if the use is incidental to the enjoyment as such of a dwellinghouse within the curtilage of which the land is situated."

 

[chaser]

The first paragraph of the first schedule states that "A site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a caravan site if the use is incidental to the enjoyment as such of a dwellinghouse within the curtilage of which the land is situated."

Well I would say that pretty much excuses a pub, it says dwelling house , you can dwell in a pub.

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[bigtwin]

A site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a caravan site if the use is incidental to the enjoyment as such of a dwellinghouse within the curtilage of which the land is situated."

Good spot. If visiting a pub is not for the purpose of ‘enjoyment as such of a dwelling house’ (i.e. pub) then I don’t know what is.

Ian

 

[Jim]

Never thought about this. Does it put britstops out of business?

Some people think every Britstop was technically breaking the rules unless it was an exempted site. I don't.

I think that someone parking up for a night has nothing to do with the Caravan Control Act. But then I'm not a lawyer and I don't have the funds to challenge it. Maybe a big company like Harvest Hosts, or a big pub chain might take them on, but it will take a few quid. We are a soft target, but will only ever be moved on, and I can't even see that happening, especially when all the council enforcement are likely working from home!

No one cares what people do any more! I was in a car park on the south coast this week, it was made clear with a sign that if any part of the motorhome was outside a bay two tickets would be required. Fair enough. Except

The only places left were near a corner that had two caravans, two pickups, 3 cars, a frame genny. 4 dogs tied up and a number of kids who at the time were fighting each other with 10ft bamboo canes. It was warm. One of the dogs was tangled and it had shortened his lead and couldn't reach a water bowl so I wandered over to kick the bowl closer to him. I did note that not one of the vehicles had bought a ticket even though they were taking up at least 10 bays.

 

[hja]

The first paragraph of the first schedule states that "A site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a caravan site if the use is incidental to the enjoyment as such of a dwellinghouse within the curtilage of which the land is situated."

That is designed to cover vans parked in the drives of houses, emphasise on parked, not being lived in. This arose in the debate on the second reading, so helpfully posted by GHJ further up thread page 3 I think. I don’t know how to link it to this post.

 

[GJH]

My comment was tongue in cheek. What applies to static caravans is one thing. Their origins are as permanent homes. Much of the other “ regulation” is related to planning conditions. I don’t think anyone can produce a single set of regulations that applies universally in England let alone GB or UK - please correct me if I’m wrong.

I'm relying on memory (because I haven't got time to look it up) but I think it was about 8 years or so ago that the requirement for 6 metre spacing was mandated for CLs and rallies. Obviously there was discussion on this forum at the time and I think there was a particular fire safety paper which contained the recommendations/regulations. Perhaps Jim may be able to help.

 

[GJH]

I'm really interested to know what the more popular reason was? and guessing that you did it while you still had your very useful website- would they still be current?

I can't recall anything being what one might term the most popular. I do recall that weight was one, many car parks not being designed for use by heavier vehicles. Others that I can remember off the top of my head were commuter usage hours which would conflict with overnight usage and multi-storey car parks being unsuitable.
I don't know whether they would still be current. I expect it would depend on what, if anything, has changed otherwise over the years.

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