B2B question/help please

[funflair]

We have a Buttner Ladebooster on our van so basically a B2B with a German name, a few months ago we had the alternator pack up and it was replaced, I thought all was now OK but today parking in the shed so all on Rickover I smelt hot electrics again and a quick check revealed a very hot alternator.

Basically the question is should the alternator be supplying the maximum amps of the B2B/Ladebooster on tickover in our case that is 70 or 90 amps depending on the dip switch settings, it was 90 but I knocked it down to 70 max to try to protect the new alternator which by the way is 220 amps so not exactly running flat out, oh the heated seat was on as well

 

[Lenny HB]

Not unusual for an alternator to produce nearly their full output on tick over, 70 amps wouldn't be a problem for a 220 amp one. They can overheat as the fan in them is not spinning fast enough to cool the alternator.

It's been alright for 3 years so is there another fault that is loading the alternator?
Is it OK if you turn off the B2B (disconncet the D+ to it) or disconnect it.

 

[funflair]

Not unusual for an alternator to produce nearly their full output on tick over, 70 amps wouldn't be a problem for a 220 amp one. They can overheat as the fan in them is not spinning fast enough to cool the alternator.

It's been alright for 3 years so is there another fault that is loading the alternator?
Is it OK if you turn off the B2B (disconncet the D+ to it) or disconnect it.

Thanks Lenny, I have disconnected the B2B and the alternator certainly works but I didn’t run it for long enough to see how hot it got, clamp meter on the battery -ve showed just 11amps so no big draw I don’t know about, the earth straps were checked when the last one was replaced.

 

[AdrianChen]

Used to be a problem on many boats with well insulated and very small engine "rooms" (box) where there was insufficient cold air to cool the alternator at tickover particularly when the engine itself was nice and hot. Hence the Victron vide re overheating alternators. Problem exacerbated with lithium as often the batts were low after a day or to at anchor etc and then the motor is started and run just above tickover to manoeuvre out of the mooring - temp measurement on our last boat showed very rapid alternator temp increase in those conditions. This was a Mastervolt alpha 24v 2nd alternator, not the poxy 12v job used for the engine start battery.

Certainly the ventilation in a van/car will be a lot better when its moving, but if just around a shed then maybe the hotter air under the bonnet didn't get dispersed, so the fans in the alternator are just cooling with already warm air, and despite some gearing in the pulleys, the fans may not be turning that fast? The old alternator you replaced may have had some issue that caused the heat, a lot of which is generated in the diode pack, and the new one will be fine.

 

[funflair]

Used to be a problem on many boats with well insulated and very small engine "rooms" (box) where there was insufficient cold air to cool the alternator at tickover particularly when the engine itself was nice and hot. Hence the Victron vide re overheating alternators. Problem exacerbated with lithium as often the batts were low after a day or to at anchor etc and then the motor is started and run just above tickover to manoeuvre out of the mooring - temp measurement on our last boat showed very rapid alternator temp increase in those conditions. This was a Mastervolt alpha 24v 2nd alternator, not the poxy 12v job used for the engine start battery.

Certainly the ventilation in a van/car will be a lot better when its moving, but if just around a shed then maybe the hotter air under the bonnet didn't get dispersed, so the fans in the alternator are just cooling with already warm air, and despite some gearing in the pulleys, the fans may not be turning that fast? The old alternator you replaced may have had some issue that caused the heat, a lot of which is generated in the diode pack, and the new one will be fine.

View attachment 841791

Thanks, this one that is getting warm/hot is the replacement, I will run it today with the B2B disconnected and see if it still gets hot, somebody suggested a dodgy -ve chassis connection could cause problems but the IVECO side were checked when the last alternator replaced so possibly the Habitation -ve to the chassis if it only gets hot with B2B connected, what seems really strange to me is that both times it has got hot it has been reversing in exactly the same spot #SPOOKY.

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[Lenny HB]

Is the replacement alternator the same make and model number?
Just wondering if a cheaper one has been fitted that's doesn't really meet its spec.

 

[funflair]

Is the replacement alternator the same make and model number?
Just wondering if a cheaper one has been fitted that's doesn't really meet its spec.

I don't think it is original IVECO but meets the spec as far as output

 

[AdrianChen]

Thanks, this one that is getting warm/hot is the replacement, I will run it today with the B2B disconnected and see if it still gets hot, somebody suggested a dodgy -ve chassis connection could cause problems but the IVECO side were checked when the last alternator replaced so possibly the Habitation -ve to the chassis if it only gets hot with B2B connected, what seems really strange to me is that both times it has got hot it has been reversing in exactly the same spot #SPOOKY.

Yes if it gets hot with no load, its a bearing or something, or your shed has a poltergeist in which case you should stay clear of any tv screens........

The Iveco price (££££) will be much higher than the original (Bosch? £400) bought from other than Iveco - and a noname copy even less (£150). Good if you can get a look/phone etc to the back cover for a name, and see if the pully is new/properly aligned. I agree with Lenny that a cheaper noname jobby will not perform as well.

 

[tonka]

This may have no relevance at all but i found it interesting, especially regarding the heat on tick over..

 

[funflair]

This may have no relevance at all but i found it interesting, especially regarding the heat on tick over..

Seen that one a few times and I think their alternator pulley speed is very low compared to the geared (pulley) up sped on and engine, I get the point though but my response would be that loads of other Morelo have exactly the same set up and it doesn't seem to be an issue.

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[funflair]

Yes if it gets hot with no load, its a bearing or something, or your shed has a poltergeist in which case you should stay clear of any tv screens........

The Iveco price (££££) will be much higher than the original (Bosch? £400) bought from other than Iveco - and a noname copy even less (£150). Good if you can get a look/phone etc to the back cover for a name, and see if the pully is new/properly aligned. I agree with Lenny that a cheaper noname jobby will not perform as well.

The invoice quotes AEK4546 whick comes out as Autoelectro, they charged it at £371.62 plus vat, will have a look to try to confirm.

 

[JockandRita]

I too think it may be a B2B related issue Martin. On the Hymer we had an alternator burn out on us, (glowing red ), and it was suggested that the B2B charging the 2 x Trojan FLA Traction Batteries, was the cause of overloading the alternator.
Replacing the 90A alternator did also solve a couple of electrical niggles, which I initially thought were earthing issues, so maybe it was just on it's way out.

Good luck sorting it out.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[rod_vw]

Whilst you are considering the current being supplied to the B2B at the time that the alternator was found hot did you consider such things as heated screen, heated seats and any other consumers that may have been active at the time?
By measuring the current at the battery -ve strap you would not have been measuring all the current that the alternator was supplying, just that which was charging the battery. A true measurement of the alternator current could only be taken with the clamp meter on the output from the alternator.

 

[funflair]

I too think it may be a B2B related issue Martin. On the Hymer we had an alternator burn out on us, (glowing red ), and it was suggested that the B2B charging the 2 x Trojan FLA Traction Batteries, was the cause of overloading the alternator.
Replacing the 90A alternator did also solve a couple of electrical niggles, which I initially thought were earthing issues, so maybe it was just on it's way out.

Good luck sorting it out.

Cheers,

Jock.

Thanks Jock, it's a 220A jobbie and the batteries were taking 70A so I thought it should be OK, Morelo have the B2B set at 90A but I changed the dip switches down to 70A after the last one went pop, funny that both times I have smelt it it's while reversing and there would be a lot of brake dabbing as we were going into the shed, I wondered if the retarder could be energising which it shouldn't at low speeds and the operating light wasn't on BUT

 

[Ditcha]

We have a Buttner Ladebooster on our van so basically a B2B with a German name, a few months ago we had the alternator pack up and it was replaced, I thought all was now OK but today parking in the shed so all on Rickover I smelt hot electrics again and a quick check revealed a very hot alternator.

Basically the question is should the alternator be supplying the maximum amps of the B2B/Ladebooster on tickover in our case that is 70 or 90 amps depending on the dip switch settings, it was 90 but I knocked it down to 70 max to try to protect the new alternator which by the way is 220 amps so not exactly running flat out, oh the heated seat was on as well

I hope Jen isn't finishing the dinner off in the microwave and induction hob whilst drying here hair, with the Aircon on the hoof

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[funflair]

Whilst you are considering the current being supplied to the B2B at the time that the alternator was found hot did you consider such things as heated screen, heated seats and any other consumers that may have been active at the time?
By measuring the current at the battery -ve strap you would not have been measuring all the current that the alternator was supplying, just that which was charging the battery. A true measurement of the alternator current could only be taken with the clamp meter on the output from the alternator.

Yes thanks, the current 70A was off the battery shunt and yes it would be plus headlights and heated seat on low, I figured that the -ve straight off the battery would be everything that the chassis was using but excluding anything habitation which should all be included in the Victron shunt display.

 

[funflair]

I hope Jen isn't finishing the dinner off in the microwave and induction hob whilst drying here hair, with the Aircon on the hoof

No dinner was on the alternator

 

[Bessy765]

Will I really need a DC to DC charger?

Hi, We're going to go the lithium route next time I replace our lead acid batteries. So far I've upgraded our solar to get ready for the switch. I have 300watts solar connected to a Victron smart solar 100/75, which is charging 3 x 110amp batteries. I have a Schaudt EBL which doesn't have a...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

I have had this set up since 2020 covered over 20,000 miles, the installer stated that a B2B is not required. The system is warranted for 5 years and the batteries for 10. The only caveat is not to run the engine to charge the batteries when stationary for more than 15 mins.

 

[funflair]

I have been over to the van for another look, B2B disconnected all OK but yes alternator gets warm, re-connected B2B and ran at about 2500rpm and all OK yes alternator gets hot but no smelling. I then wondered how hot it should get so put the heated seats on the car and ran that at 2000rpm and guess what ? it was hot

Maybe it was just with it being a bit new still and a lot of idling, fingers crossed

Maybe it would be nice if the B2B disconnected at idle.

 

[AdrianChen]

I have been over to the van for another look, B2B disconnected all OK but yes alternator gets warm, re-connected B2B and ran at about 2500rpm and all OK yes alternator gets hot but no smelling. I then wondered how hot it should get so put the heated seats on the car and ran that at 2000rpm and guess what ? it was hot

Maybe it was just with it being a bit new still and a lot of idling, fingers crossed

Maybe it would be nice if the B2B disconnected at idle.

I guess when the B2B is active "on tour" the batteries will not need the full charge the whole time and you will be going a bit quicker, and if you leave the thing on it's 70amp setting it will be working the alternator to a lesser degree than previously - how old was the previous one? You could stick a temp tag thingy to the case, and monitor it on your phone - case temp is usualy quite a bit cooler than the working bits though, if I remember correctly (getting less likely with time) our boaty one was set to throttle back output @ 80degrees and stop at 100. There comes a point when they burn the varnish on the windings, or melt the (supposedly high temp) solder. Doubt you are close to that!

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[bigtwin]

I have been over to the van for another look, B2B disconnected all OK but yes alternator gets warm, re-connected B2B and ran at about 2500rpm and all OK yes alternator gets hot but no smelling. I then wondered how hot it should get so put the heated seats on the car and ran that at 2000rpm and guess what ? it was hot

Maybe it was just with it being a bit new still and a lot of idling, fingers crossed

Maybe it would be nice if the B2B disconnected at idle.

In the narrowboat world, where many are using the alternator to charge LiFePO4 batteries without the buffer of a B2B, the key issues that they seek to manage are:

• alternator current
• alternator temperature

In the case of the former the typical approach is to ensure that the maximum current is limited to about 2/3 of alternator‘s rated output.

In the case of the latter, the goal is to ensure that the alternator winding temperature doesn’t exceed 90C. Most check the temperature using an infra thermometer gun such as this. However, I recognise that checking the alternator temperature on a narrowboat (where one needs only to lift a hatch to be able to point a gun at the alternator) is somewhat easier than it is for a MH! The issue of the ineffectiveness of the alternator cooling fan at idle speeds is well recognised.

Ian

 

[funflair]

I guess when the B2B is active "on tour" the batteries will not need the full charge the whole time and you will be going a bit quicker, and if you leave the thing on it's 70amp setting it will be working the alternator to a lesser degree than previously - how old was the previous one? You could stick a temp tag thingy to the case, and monitor it on your phone - case temp is usualy quite a bit cooler than the working bits though, if I remember correctly (getting less likely with time) our boaty one was set to throttle back output @ 80degrees and stop at 100. There comes a point when they burn the varnish on the windings, or melt the (supposedly high temp) solder. Doubt you are close to that!

Yes it will be staying at 70 amps, as you say on the road and a few revs may well be completely different, re burning the varnish yes that is obviously what I could smell but running at higher revs today no smell, the last alternator was on 3 years and 20k miles but the B2B was set at 90 amps then and we have a retarder which I believe pulls a good chunk of power when operating but not at low speeds, our dealer is going to ask the question of the tech guys at the factory so it will be interesting to see what comes back from them.

 

[rod_vw]

This may sound very radical. Does the IVECO base vehicle (which I believe your vehicle is based on) have the option of fitting a second alternator? Some manufacturers certainly do offer this option.
If yours does why not investigate the option just to supply the habitation side, leisure charging etc. then you can charge at maximum amperage all of the time.

 

[funflair]

This may sound very radical. Does the IVECO base vehicle (which I believe your vehicle is based on) have the option of fitting a second alternator? Some manufacturers certainly do offer this option.
If yours does why not investigate the option just to supply the habitation side, leisure charging etc. then you can charge at maximum amperage all of the time.

Sorry missed that yesterday, the simple answer is I don’t know, I suppose anything is possible but certainly not an option, I believe our chassis have bigger alternator than standard to cope with the B2B demand.

 

[rod_vw]

Sorry missed that yesterday, the simple answer is I don’t know, I suppose anything is possible but certainly not an option, I believe our chassis have bigger alternator than standard to cope with the B2B demand.

As an example, Volkswagen certainly offer a second alternator on the current Crafter (MAN TGE) models presumably for specialist vehicles. Perhaps IVECO do similar.

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[funflair]

Just a bit of an update, armed with my newly purchased infra-red thermometer thingy I first checked the temperature of the alternator on the car after a run with heated seats etc and it was around 70 deg C do that gave me a baseline, checked the motorhome today without the B2B but on tick over about 60-65 deg C, reconnected B2B and pulling around 80A with a few revs it was about 85 deg C so hoping that is OK, a bit of Google reading suggests it's not a million miles off, the big test will be coming back from New Year in the lakes when the Lithiums will be empty at least it will most likely be cold

Might talk to the alternator people next week, it would be nice if they said "oh we have a temperature controlled option"

 

[AdrianChen]

Just a bit of an update, armed with my newly purchased infra-red thermometer thingy I first checked the temperature of the alternator on the car after a run with heated seats etc and it was around 70 deg C do that gave me a baseline, checked the motorhome today without the B2B but on tick over about 60-65 deg C, reconnected B2B and pulling around 80A with a few revs it was about 85 deg C so hoping that is OK, a bit of Google reading suggests it's not a million miles off, the big test will be coming back from New Year in the lakes when the Lithiums will be empty at least it will most likely be cold

Might talk to the alternator people next week, it would be nice if they said "oh we have a temperature controlled option"

If you were measuring the case, it is likely the core will be a bit hotter, but your results don't sound too drastic - some (Pre-Smart?) alternators do have the means to reduce their output voltage as they warm up so the battery will accept less amps at the lower voltage, but I'm not sure about the Iveco fitments, used to be part of the regulator functions. You would see the voltage drop down on a voltmeter if it did....

 

[stewartwebr]

sorry I can’t help with the problem but your post jogged my memory around the current output from the B2B charger. I am sure from memory ours only produces 40amp max. Do you have a picture of the dip switch location so I can have a play please?

 

[funflair]

sorry I can’t help with the problem but your post jogged my memory around the current output from the B2B charger. I am sure from memory ours only produces 40amp max. Do you have a picture of the dip switch location so I can have a play please?

Interesting and might be worth a check next time you are in the van if you don't mind, yours may be coming off the 24V chassis alternator so would depend on what voltage they are measuring amps at, alternatively it may have a smaller alternator just for 12v.

 

[stewartwebr]

Interesting and might be worth a check next time you are in the van if you don't mind, yours may be coming off the 24V chassis alternator so would depend on what voltage they are measuring amps at, alternatively it may have a smaller alternator just for 12v.

Thanks Martin, so where are the dip switches you were mentioning? I am quoting the current on the Buttner monitor which shows 40amps when the engine is running. If you could tell me the location of the dip switches it may be a case they have been set at the lower current.

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