Avoiding the Schengen 90 day Rule with a Spouse's EU Passport

[Roby2008]

An official ID....my wife is German and has a personalauweise / identity card plus she has a passport, either will suffice as a form of identity.
I am British and we don't have Identity cards. Just passports which our ultimate form of ID and travel document.
My wife can travel in and out of Schengen with either passport or ID, I can travel with my passport only, in order for it not to be stamped I need to produce my residency card to prove I am exempt from the stamp.
When you leave or enter Schengen you must produce your residency card to ensure you don't get a stamp, then all will be well.

 

[nicholsong]

An official ID....my wife is German and has a personalauweise / identity card plus she has a passport, either will suffice as a form of identity.
I am British and we don't have Identity cards. Just passports which our ultimate form of ID and travel document.
My wife can travel in and out of Schengen with either passport or ID, I can travel with my passport only, in order for it not to be stamped I need to produce my residency card to prove I am exempt from the stamp.
When you leave or enter Schengen you must produce your residency card to ensure you don't get a stamp, then all will be well.

I am not having an argument with you only a discussion.

I accept that pre- Withdrawal Agreement that a Residence Card would not have been accepted for exit entry to Schengen.

However are you sure that it applies also to the new biometric cards issued for UK Citizens under the Withdrawal Agreement, with the printed words I quoted in my post#28, because I think that they have more validity than the previous ones?

Which is why UK Citizens with Residency were urged to get the new cards as the likes of gus-lopez were urging at the time.

Do you have a new biometric card, with the references to Art 59 TUE and to Art 18 4 ?

Please check your card.

 

[Roby2008]

I am not having an argument with you only a discussion.

I accept that pre- Withdrawal Agreement that a Residence Card would not have been accepted for exit entry to Schengen.

However are you sure that it applies also to the new biometric cards issued for UK Citizens under the Withdrawal Agreement, with the printed words I quoted in my post#28, because I think that they have more validity than the previous ones?

Which is why UK Citizens with Residency were urged to get the new cards as the likes of gus-lopez were urging at the time.

Do you have a new biometric card, with the references to Art 59 TUE and to Art 18 4 ?

Please check your card.

No worries, for me it's interesting not argumentative.

I try to stay with what I know and have experienced, so as I am still waiting for my new card ( I am still on the old one) I don´t have any practical experience of it, that will be a new update as and when I have it and researched the references.

What the withdrawal agreement did and the effect it had on British citizens living in the EU is a whole different subject and not for this post.

If you find out anything more before I do then please post it or if you want a private rant then by all means message me

 

[nicholsong]

No worries, for me it's interesting not argumentative.

I try to stay with what I know and have experienced, so as I am still waiting for my new card ( I am still on the old one) I don´t have any practical experience of it, that will be a new update as and when I have it and researched the references.

B

If you find out anything more before I do then please post it or if you want a private rant then by all means message me

No worries, for me it's interesting not argumentative.

I try to stay with what I know and have experienced, so as I am still waiting for my new card ( I am still on the old one) I don´t have any practical experience of it, that will be a new update as and when I have it and researched the references.

What the withdrawal agreement did and the effect it had on British citizens living in the EU is a whole different subject and not for this post.

If you find out anything more before I do then please post it or if you want a private rant then by all means message me

I did think that maybe you had not got the new Residence card with the new wording in compliance with the Withdrawal Agreement. In fact I think you might have applied to late to receive such. Call the British Consulate to check.

I have no intention of having a 'rant' about this - I just want to get to the bottom of the legal position and how it works in practice with immigration officers, so as to avoid arguments about having a passport stamped and then accusations later of overstaying.

 

[Roby2008]

I did think that maybe you had not got the new Residence card with the new wording in compliance with the Withdrawal Agreement. In fact I think you might have applied to late to receive such. Call the British Consulate to check.

I have no intention of having a 'rant' about this - I just want to get to the bottom of the legal position and how it works in practice with immigration officers, so as to avoid arguments about having a passport stamped and then accusations later of overstaying.

I like a good rant, it´s a sanity thing

It`s a bit different with me, I was officially resident here in Germany anyway (since 09) and the foreigner bureau automatically notified me and issued the card nearly 3 years ago ( God bless them ), I am in the process of getting it updated and then we shall see.
I find the best way is to just ask the immigration officer as you pass through, they are very helpful (in Germany anyway), they advised me last time that it would be better to change my paper document ( perfectly legal) for a card just to make things smoother ( being biometric etc).

I am looking forward to getting to the bottom of this one, it´s an interesting conundrum.

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[Manxcat]

Like so many others I am eagerly watching for some definitive account. My wife got her Irish passport last year so we are now working on the principle that the Schengen rules do not apply if I am travelling with her. Copy of marriage certificate will be with us etc. I suspect the stamping or not of the passport is a red herring. So long as we obey the rules we will not be sanctioned.

 

[Roby2008]

A quick update, I have just received an email from the Ausländer- und Staatsangehörigkeitsrecht that I can go and transfer my permanent residence certificate into a residence document-GB in the form of an electronic residence title in June, so the practicalities of what I can do with this will have to wait until then, and as it happens we will be travelling to the UK later in June so it can be the first test.

 

[Carpmart]

We all need to be careful (and clear) with these kind of discussions on these kind of topics/threads as they always seem to evolve into a broader (often interesting) non contextual discussion

90/180 restrictions relating to non EU resident persons and challenges around choosing to live in an EU country have a very different set of circumstances, conditions and rules as compared to extended touring with an EU spouses.

Even though I am 100% crystal clear on my situation (EU passported spouse) these topics end up confusing the hell out of me with the deviation in discussion points.

 

[nicholsong]

Like so many others I am eagerly watching for some definitive account. My wife got her Irish passport last year so we are now working on the principle that the Schengen rules do not apply if I am travelling with her. Copy of marriage certificate will be with us etc. I suspect the stamping or not of the passport is a red herring. So long as we obey the rules we will not be sanctioned.

Consider the following situation.

You and your wife depart UK but the French Immigration Officer wrongly stamps your passport.

You both happily travel, quite legally, around EU for 120 days, then unfortunately your wife gets an urgent reason to return to UK, leaving you to bring the MH back.

You arrive at a Channel port and present your passport, without your wife, and it shows you were in Schengen for 130 days. You explain and the kind immigration officer lets you depart without further sanction.

However, he has scanned your passport into the computer. Then when you wish to enter Schengen again it identifies you as a previous 'overstayer' and refuses you entry.

You would be in the same position as me, without a wife, having had my passport stamped wrongly despite my presenting an EU Resident's Card and then departing Schengen from Calais a year later despite having been legally resident in Poland.

I therefore suggest the matter of passports being stamped when they should not be is not a 'Red Herring' and should be addressed.

 

[Carpmart]

Consider the following situation.

You and your wife depart UK but the French Immigration Officer wrongly stamps your passport.

You both happily travel, quite legally, around EU for 120 days, then unfortunately your wife gets an urgent reason to return to UK, leaving you to bring the MH back.

You arrive at a Channel port and present your passport, without your wife, and it shows you were in Schengen for 130 days. You explain and the kind immigration officer lets you depart without further sanction.

However, he has scanned your passport into the computer. Then when you wish to enter Schengen again it identifies you as a previous 'overstayer' and refuses you entry.

You would be in the same position as me, without a wife, having had my passport stamped wrongly despite my presenting an EU Resident's Card.

I therefore suggest the matter of passports being stamped when they should not be is not a 'Red Herring' and should be addressed.

Agree… the border staff need training properly. They have just been told to stamp all UK passports and despite several attempts now, with some energetic education from me, I’ve failed on every occasion to depart to the EU without a stamp.

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[nicholsong]

We all need to be careful (and clear) with these kind of discussions on these kind of topics/threads as they always seem to evolve into a broader (often interesting) non contextual discussion

90/180 restrictions relating to non EU resident persons and challenges around choosing to live in an EU country have a very different set of circumstances, conditions and rules as compared to extended touring with an EU spouses.

Even though I am 100% crystal clear on my situation (EU passported spouse) these topics end up confusing the hell out of me with the deviation in discussion points.

If you read my post #39 you will see how having one's passport stamped wrongly could affect both UK Citizens and those resident in an EU country, as Residency only confers the same right to 90/180 days in Schengen, outside one's country of residence, as a UK visitor.

 

[Carpmart]

If you read my post #39 you will see how having one's passport stamped wrongly could affect both UK Citizens and those resident in an EU country, as Residency only confers the same right to 90/180 days in Schengen, outside one's country of residence, as a UK visitor.

Was a generalised observation from me…

 

[Manxcat]

I get your point about stamping but that is why we will keep all documentation as "proof" of travelling together (ferry tickets, camping bills (for 2), calendar appointments, photo evidence etc). In the not too distant future passport stamping will be history for everybody anyway when they get their electronic system up and running. As I understand it everyone will be biometrically scanned or something so they will need to work out how to cope with our situation.

 

[Orion]

Qq

Agree… the border staff need training properly. They have just been told to stamp all UK passports and despite several attempts now, with some energetic education from me, I’ve failed on every occasion to depart to the EU without a stamp.

As I’m in the same boat as you with an Irish wife, I’ve followed all the threads with interest and I can only see the confusion and potential for cock ups increasing when the systems go fully electronic.

One thing that does puzzle me though is the requirement (or lack of) to stamp the non-EU spouse’s passport. From my reading of Directive 2004/38/EC Article 5 “ Right of Entry”, the requirement to stamp the spouses passport is only removed if they are also in possession of a residence card?

“3. The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit stamp in the passport of family members who are not nationals of a Member State provided that they present the residence card provided for in Article 10.”

Is there another section or a later Directive that mentions that the spouse’s passport should not be stamped on entry (or exit) even if they are not in possession of the residence card?

Directive 2004/38/EC

 

[Carpmart]

Qq


As I’m in the same boat as you with an Irish wife, I’ve followed all the threads with interest and I can only see the confusion and potential for cock ups increasing when the systems go fully electronic.

One thing that does puzzle me though is the requirement (or lack of) to stamp the non-EU spouse’s passport. From my reading of Directive 2004/38/EC Article 5 “ Right of Entry”, the requirement to stamp the spouses passport is only removed if they are also in possession of a residence card?

“3. The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit stamp in the passport of family members who are not nationals of a Member State provided that they present the residence card provided for in Article 10.”

Is there another section or a later Directive that mentions that the spouse’s passport should not be stamp on entry (or exit) even if they are not in possession of the residence card?

Directive 2004/38/EC

Maybe that’s what I am going to request (insist on) from now on, that they stamp er-in-doors passport at entry and exit of EU when with me, so that I have this as a record.

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[Hugoman]

I am not sure that there is an answer to this problem, UK passports will get stamped whatever you say and it becomes your future problem.

My story:

I have German residency ( complete with a little card), I have visited the UK twice in the last 2 years, on leaving the UK via ferry, my passport was stamped, despite presenting my German residency, having my German wife with me and in a German registered MH, and driving on a German licence....the guy just shrugged and stamped.
Since January this year we have flown out of the EU twice, both times the passport control officers in Munich have reached for the stamp on seeing my British passport, it takes a few Keine Stempel bitte to stop them before they then check my residency card ( always presented with the passport) and let me through.

From my experience, entering or leaving the EU on a British passport will trigger a stamp unless you can prove otherwise.

I will go through the whole thing again when we come over in June to pick up a cruise, hopefully in the new MH is it arrives a promised, but that´s another story.

Why didn’t you just show them your German Biometric card (I assume that’s what you’ve got) then they wouldn’t be able to stamp your UK passport.

 

[Hugoman]

Thanks, but what is an 'official ID'?

As I understand it my Residence in Poland gives me the right to travel within the EU, outside Poland under the Withdrawal Agreement as confirmed by the wording I quoted. The only way I can prove that right is by producing the Residence Card, because my passport does not contain that information.

So if I visited any country outside Schengen and returned to Poland by air on say 1st January and travelled to Germany on 1st September and had to produce my passport I would show as an overstayer, unless I had my Residence Card.

Do you agree?

But my question was about entering Schengen, which you personally think I cannot do without a passport, I understand.

I’ve just entered France from UK and just showed my Residency Card. Didn’t even get my UK passport out just in case they tried to stamp it. It was fine. First time I’ve tried that.

Usually I pass both to them but they can be very quick with the stamper. I was behind a women in a queue in Portugal once and she handed them her residency card + passport and they stamped passport.A huge arguament ensued before they stamped cancelled over the stamp !

 

[Orion]

Maybe that’s what I am going to request (insist on) from now on, that they stamp er-in-doors passport at entry and exit of EU when with me, so that I have this as a record.

Okay, sounds like a plan, (although I don’t want to be around when you attempt it! ).

Going back on track, I don’t think we can be surprised when our U.K. passports are stamped if the border officials are following the instruction in Article 5 that I quoted above - unless there is something I’m not aware of that has amended or replaced it?

Thereafter, if stopped or questioned it’s going to be up to us as individuals to provide the supporting documentation, such as the marriage certificate, together with evidence of travelling together (ferry tickets etc.) to negate the 90/180 limitation.

 

[nicholsong]

I’ve just entered France from UK and just showed my Residency Card. Didn’t even get my UK passport out just in case they tried to stamp it. It was fine. First time I’ve tried that.

Usually I pass both to them but they can be very quick with the stamper. I was behind a women in a queue in Portugal once and she handed them her residency card + passport and they stamped passport.A huge arguament ensued before they stamped cancelled over the stamp !

That is what I have been waiting to hear, instead of opinions and quotes. Thank you.

Maybe French immigration are being trained up to speed.

Is your Residency Card for France or elsewhere in EU?

 

[haganap]

I am not sure that there is an answer to this problem, UK passports will get stamped whatever you say and it becomes your future problem.

My story:

I have German residency ( complete with a little card), I have visited the UK twice in the last 2 years, on leaving the UK via ferry, my passport was stamped, despite presenting my German residency, having my German wife with me and in a German registered MH, and driving on a German licence....the guy just shrugged and stamped.
Since January this year we have flown out of the EU twice, both times the passport control officers in Munich have reached for the stamp on seeing my British passport, it takes a few Keine Stempel bitte to stop them before they then check my residency card ( always presented with the passport) and let me through.

From my experience, entering or leaving the EU on a British passport will trigger a stamp unless you can prove otherwise.

I will go through the whole thing again when we come over in June to pick up a cruise, hopefully in the new MH is it arrives a promised, but that´s another story.

I am posting here, although not having a spouse with an EU passport, because the OP asked for people with experience of exiting and entering Schengen, which some posters have.

Can one enter the Schengen area using only a EU country Residence Card, without presenting passport, and which card complies with the following:-

"All the above mentioned documents will bear: “Article 50 TUE” in the field: “type of permit” and “Article 18 ust. 4 Umowy Wystąpienia” in the field: “remarks”

My Residence card bears those wordings.

The reason I ask is that only presenting the card would avoid arguments about whether the officer should or should not stamp the passport, which he should not , but could cause problems in the future since I would certainly be more than 90/180 in Schengen as I live here.

Without further research I would say no, the residence card is not the same as an official ID or passport....
I use my residence card as an ID when in country (Germany) and do not carry my passport, when crossing any border I have my passport with me.
The residence card just proves your status in your country of residence, it is not a cross border travel document.
I hope this makes sense.

I have a Portuguese ID card as a Portuguese citizen.
If leaving the UK I do not have to show my Passport.
My wife does, and gets stamped. If we 90 plus days together, we produce our marriage cert and her passport.
Every bit of info I've read, studied or discussed with the Portuguese embassy clarifies this.

Of course what is getting confusing for some is whats been discussed. I as a Portuguese citizen have no right to rock up in Belgium and live there as long as I like with out applying for residencey of that country.

The bigger thing in our favour is open borders mean no checking within Shengen anyway. So unless you were being hunted for a crime, no one is likely to know how long you've been anywhere if you're a motorhomer.
As Carpmart says. Take care of your "own" needs and check they apply to you.

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[Hugoman]

That is what I have been waiting to hear, instead of opinions and quotes. Thank you.

Maybe French immigration are being trained up to speed.

Is your Residency Card for France or elsewhere in EU?

Elsewhere in the EU…

 

[Hugoman]

So unless you were being hunted for a crime, no one is likely to know how long you've been anywhere if you're a motorhomer.
As Carpmart says. Take care of your "own" needs and check they apply to you.

Take note gus-lopez as your tearing across the Millau Bridge at 3am