Asking for tips when buying a new Motorhome at the NEC

[Ralph Hardwick]

Apologies for the long waffly post, but I wanted to give plenty of background before we asked for your help.

We are just a few weeks away from completing the sale of our house and having the cash available for our new motorhome. Probably late July/early August. We are not totally restricted by budget but, like everyone, want value for money and the spend as little as practical.

We are experienced travellers (3 continents, Arctic Circle and Sahara in a Land Rover Discovery) and have done oodles and oodles of research on layouts, makes, extras, etc. etc. and have finalised our choice down to a Swift Escape 622 auto (or dealer variant).

The dealer 'special editions' (Champagne, Freestyle, Coastline, Carmarge, Seeker, Vogue, Spirit, etc. etc.) pack in several useful extras, over the basic Escape model, for not a lot extra dosh and would seem a good option. Sadly, due to the time of year, the 2019 versions of these models have all but disappeared from the forecourts and won't be replaced until the 2020 'influx' after September/October.

So we face a dilemma (albeit a good one). Do we opt for a 2019 base Escape model that has been on the forecourt for while and bolt the extra bits on ourselves or do we wait for the NEC show and the 'new release' of 2020 dealer specials?

Option 1 gives the possibility of a lower price and chance to haggle to clear the dealer's forecourt ready for new models and get us the motorhome earlier so we can enjoy an extra few months of this summer.

Option 2 gives the possibility of a newer, better spec'd van, more choice of colours, graphics, trim, etc. and a 'show deal'.

We have visited the show in previous years and know that deals can be had, but would love to hear from anyone that has actually bought at the show and just how much they managed to haggle the price down or amount of added extras they got thrown in.

We'd especially love to hear from anyone that has bought a 'dealer special' to see what kind of lead time applies to show purchases. The fact that all the relevant dealers will be within walking distance of each other, all with comparable trim/spec'd models should help with some leverage (or does it?)

Any show specific tips would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
Ralph & Belinda



PS. There is an Option 3 which is a secondhand model. If the right one pops up at the right time, we would definitely consider it as a viable alternative, but our initial preference is for a new model.

 

[Blue Knight]

Have a look at this Ralph. At the bottom of the advert it mentions extras but with the dosh you save you can add a few things and still get a huge deal. I reckon you could squeeze them for a further £1k off but then again I'm a cheeky swine:

https://www.prestoncm.co.uk/product/swift-escape-622-2019/

 

[Silver-Fox]

What has the vat got to do with it totally irrelevant. Only ever bought new, depeciation has been very low and I get to order exactly what I want.

I think vat matters if you can’t afford it

I bought secound hand and didn’t pay vat

 

[Ralph Hardwick]

You need to weigh up layout against build quality though, although layout is important don't totally disregard build quality

I would love to say that I agree, but I really don't see how you can. A well-built van that doesn't suit your requirements will be just as frustrating, if not more so, as a not so well built one that does.

If someone could find me a better made van that meets our criteria then I would go for it, but at the moment Swift is the only one that ticks all the boxes. We have poked and prodded a few swifts at the February show and during a day spent at Browhills and Lowdhams. Yes I can see a difference between them and Hymer, Burstner, but I (we) just don't like their layouts.

Have a look at this Ralph. At the bottom of the advert it mentions extras but with the dosh you save you can add a few things and still get a huge deal. I reckon you could squeeze them for a further £1k off but then again I'm a cheeky swine:

https://www.prestoncm.co.uk/product/swift-escape-622-2019/

Thanks, but an Auto gearbox is one of my 'must haves'

 

[Ralph Hardwick]

I think vat matters if you can’t afford it

I bought secound hand and didn’t pay vat

As I said, if I can find a secondhand one that fits the bill then we would consider it.

I know that many people say it and a lot change their mind, but we are buying this as our one and only motorhome for the next 10+ years. Depreciation is a low consideration at the moment.

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[Lenny HB]

I think vat matters if you can’t afford it

I bought secound hand and didn’t pay vat

Doesn't make any difference, salesman BS.

 

[Silver-Fox]

Doesn't make any difference, salesman BS.

You’ve lost me now

I bought private and didn’t pay vat, hows that salesman BS.

 

[RobL]

What has the vat got to do with it totally irrelevant. Only ever bought new, depeciation has been very low and I get to order exactly what I want.

Horses for courses mate. I lost £23000 in depreciation in 2 years and that was trading in!! I wouldn't say that was low depreciation.

 

[peterc10]

Horses for courses mate. I lost £23000 in depreciation in 2 years and that was trading in!! I wouldn't say that was low depreciation.

Depends what you are trading in. Some mohos keep their value much better than others. We kept our first moho, an Adria, to two and a half years and put 15,000 miles on it. Bought for £30k from a dealer and traded it in to another dealer at £28k, and that was after I got a very good deal on the new moho I was buying.

 

[RobL]

Thank you all. With regard to choosing the Swift 622, it is all down to layout. As you all know almost everything about motorhomes is a compromise. We decided our criteria which had some 'must haves', some 'preferred but might gives' and some 'nice to have if they fit'.

We do intend to (possibly) be a bit more adventurous so we wanted to keep the van as short (so manoeuvrable) as possible. Remember, we are used to a 5m Land Rover. We do intend to go to some warmer climes where sitting outside is more preferable than inside.

Although we will do some longer trips, most of our time will be spent in the UK, so a nearside habitation door is preferred. This rules out almost all of the European makes.

I want an automatic this rules out Bailey and Eldiss as they only use the Peugeot base. Auto sleeper only do auto on the Sprinter base but that IS over our budget. They will offer a Fiat option but it has a very long lead time and is still expensive (albeit good quality) considering the benefits.

We started our search open to any brand, any size and by a process of elimination ended up with the 622. This layout 'ticked more boxes', compromised the least We checked the driving position (I'm over 6' and prefer a laid back position), the shower size, toilet height and knee room (I kid you not). The water capacity, the payload, the storage layout, etc. etc. We tried van conversions and coachbuilt and we considered converting one ourselves ( I am an ex-engineer).

We checked every conceivable detail (that we could) and considered them in all the different environments and situations that we had encountered.

We tried many of the fixed beds in many different vans (french, Island, transverse, longitudinal, drop down, etc. etc.). I hate to admit that both the wife and I are rather 'well fed' so some of these 'so-called' double beds required a level of spooning and movement coordination that we gave up many years ago!

My wife has problems with her knees/hips so a low bed is a must. We both make regular midnight trips to the bathroom, so a single bed option is preferred to stop one of us having to climb over the other in the night.

The 622 layout allows for a double or single bed layout. With swivel seats (I would have to add these) it gives us a small sitting/breakfast area at the front whilst allowing us to keep the bed 'made up' at the rear. In warmer climes we will be sitting outside anyway, if the weather turns then we may well have to pack down the bed, but the extra 1.5-2m length to accommodate a fixed bed puts the van in the 'way, way too long' category for some of the places we have in mind. We looked at drop down beds (we hire a Roller Team 590) but the majority don't come down far enough and those that do require so much dismantling of the furniture below that you might as well make up a bed anyway! Also, bear in mind that we used to spend months on end climbing a ladder into a roof tent! Wiggling a few cushions around will be an absolute luxury.

I would love to buy a secondhand (or new) automatic motorhome that meets all these criteria from a nearby dealer. Sadly (from that one perspective) we live near Gt. Yarmouth. We do have two good dealers close by (Simpsons and Becks) and we scour their forecourts regularly and if something appears we will go down that route.

Our nearest Swift dealer is nearly 80 miles away and has very limited stock.

So, hopefully, you can see why we have ended up with the 622. Is it perfect? No. Would we prefer a non-entry level model? Yes. Is it the best compromise taking into account our criteria? We think (hope) so.

With regard to buying at the show or before, thanks for all the comments. The point that @eddievanbitz makes is very valid and something we will take on board, thanks.

I have read the buyers guide in the resources section, but any more advice would be more than welcome.

Apologies for the long waffly post, but I wanted to give plenty of background before we asked for your help.

We are just a few weeks away from completing the sale of our house and having the cash available for our new motorhome. Probably late July/early August. We are not totally restricted by budget but, like everyone, want value for money and the spend as little as practical.

We are experienced travellers (3 continents, Arctic Circle and Sahara in a Land Rover Discovery) and have done oodles and oodles of research on layouts, makes, extras, etc. etc. and have finalised our choice down to a Swift Escape 622 auto (or dealer variant).

The dealer 'special editions' (Champagne, Freestyle, Coastline, Carmarge, Seeker, Vogue, Spirit, etc. etc.) pack in several useful extras, over the basic Escape model, for not a lot extra dosh and would seem a good option. Sadly, due to the time of year, the 2019 versions of these models have all but disappeared from the forecourts and won't be replaced until the 2020 'influx' after September/October.

So we face a dilemma (albeit a good one). Do we opt for a 2019 base Escape model that has been on the forecourt for while and bolt the extra bits on ourselves or do we wait for the NEC show and the 'new release' of 2020 dealer specials?

Option 1 gives the possibility of a lower price and chance to haggle to clear the dealer's forecourt ready for new models and get us the motorhome earlier so we can enjoy an extra few months of this summer.

Option 2 gives the possibility of a newer, better spec'd van, more choice of colours, graphics, trim, etc. and a 'show deal'.

We have visited the show in previous years and know that deals can be had, but would love to hear from anyone that has actually bought at the show and just how much they managed to haggle the price down or amount of added extras they got thrown in.

We'd especially love to hear from anyone that has bought a 'dealer special' to see what kind of lead time applies to show purchases. The fact that all the relevant dealers will be within walking distance of each other, all with comparable trim/spec'd models should help with some leverage (or does it?)

Any show specific tips would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
Ralph & Belinda



PS. There is an Option 3 which is a secondhand model. If the right one pops up at the right time, we would definitely consider it as a viable alternative, but our initial preference is for a new model.

A bit of advice Ralph for what it is worth.
Buying a Motorhome is a personal thing, a bit like buying a house. Use Motorhome forums by all means but go with your gut feeling. When i started Motorhoming 10 years ago i asked advice on forums and it invariably ended up in the posters criticising each other and arguing.
Good luck with your search. It will always come down to what you want,its your money!!

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[Ralph Hardwick]

Thanks for all the comments, but we seem to have got a little sidetracked into my choice of Motorhome rather than any tips on how to get it cheaper

So, trying to get back on track, can any of you kind folk help me with any negotiating tips for the NEC? Even if I don't end up buying one there I'm sure they would be useful to know

 

[Minxy]

Don't want to burst your Swift bubble but please check with them about the terms of their warranty etc in relation to using the motorhome for long term living as they used to have a 'no more than 3 months' rule I believe, I can't find anything online about it but that doesn't mean it no longer exists.

 

[Ralph Hardwick]

Don't want to burst your Swift bubble but please check with them about the terms of their warranty etc in relation to using the motorhome for long term living as they used to have a 'no more than 3 months' rule I believe, I can't find anything online about it but that doesn't mean it no longer exists.

Thanks for that.

No mention of it here: or in any of the previous years Ts&Cs

I'm not disputing your statement, but it seems a rather ludicrous exclusion clause to put on any motorhome. I am aware of several 'bloggers' that have used new Swifts for trips well over 3 months and have then made successful warranty claims. So, it seems that it doesn't apply.

 

[Minxy]

Thanks for that.

No mention of it here: or in any of the previous years Ts&Cs

I'm not disputing your statement, but it seems a rather ludicrous exclusion clause to put on any motorhome. I am aware of several 'bloggers' that have used new Swifts for trips well over 3 months and have then made successful warranty claims. So, it seems that it doesn't apply.

It did exist trust me, it was mentioned on this forum and on the Swift Talk one a few times, it may simply be that they don't now have the restriction but I'd be wanting that in writing from them rather than just 'trusting' it was the case. As for the 'bloggers', they may simply not have made mention of their 'long term' usage when making the warranty claim.

Never ever 'trust' what a dealer/manufacturer states on line or in their blurb is totally correct/reliable (they always have get-out clauses) - too many people have fallen foul of that over the years ... you need it in hard copy.

 

[Blue Knight]

Para-7 in both docs FYI and interpretation:

1. The 2017 Swift Coachbuilt Warranty:

2. The 2018-onwards Swift Coachbuilt Warranty:

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[Ralph Hardwick]

It did exist trust me, it was mentioned on this forum and on the Swift Talk one a few times, it may simply be that they don't now have the restriction but I'd be wanting that in writing from them rather than just 'trusting' it was the case. As for the 'bloggers', they may simply not have made mention of their 'long term' usage when making the warranty claim.

Never ever 'trust' what a dealer/manufacturer states on line or in their blurb is totally correct/reliable (they always have get-out clauses) - too many people have fallen foul of that over the years ... you need it in hard copy.

Mmmm, it would seem that you are correct and I typed too soon.

The 2017 and earlier warranty contained this clause:

7. The SuperSure, Body Shell and Extended Body Shell Warranties only apply to motorhomes purchased and used primarily within the UK, which means that the motorhome is not used for continuous journeys outside of the UK of longer than 90 days per journey. Please refer to the Fiat handbook for use of the base vehicle outside the UK.

Rather worryingly this has been changed in the latest version to read:

7. The SuperSure, Body Shell and Extended Body Shell Warranties only apply to motorhomes purchased and used primarily within the UK. Please refer to the Fiat handbook for use of the base vehicle outside the UK.

It would seem that anyone taking a new Swift over the channel (even for a weekend) could be impacting the body shell warranty. Interestingly I can't see how the Fiat Handbook is relevant to the Swift added bodywork!

Thank you for this I shall make sure that I clarify the point (in writing) before buying.

 

[Ralph Hardwick]

Oops @Blue Knight cross post

 

[Ralph Hardwick]

It would seem that Auto-Trail have a similar clause:

• UK only – The Auto-Trail warranties only apply to motorhomes purchased within the UK, and used primarily within the UK. This means that the motorhome must not be used for continuous journeys outside of the UK of longer than 90 days per journey, or exported from the UK.

taken from here: https://www.auto-trail.co.uk/warranty-terms-and-conditions

 

[peterc10]

Mmmm, it would seem that you are correct and I typed too soon.

The 2017 and earlier warranty contained this clause:

7. The SuperSure, Body Shell and Extended Body Shell Warranties only apply to motorhomes purchased and used primarily within the UK, which means that the motorhome is not used for continuous journeys outside of the UK of longer than 90 days per journey. Please refer to the Fiat handbook for use of the base vehicle outside the UK.

Rather worryingly this has been changed in the latest version to read:

7. The SuperSure, Body Shell and Extended Body Shell Warranties only apply to motorhomes purchased and used primarily within the UK. Please refer to the Fiat handbook for use of the base vehicle outside the UK.

It would seem that anyone taking a new Swift over the channel (even for a weekend) could be impacting the body shell warranty. Interestingly I can't see how the Fiat Handbook is relevant to the Swift added bodywork!

Thank you for this I shall make sure that I clarify the point (in writing) before buying.

All of this suggests that Swift and Autotrail do not have much confidence in their products surviving well on a lengthy European trip. If they don't have that confidence I am struggling to understand why anybody else would.

By the way in my experience (limited to Germany, France, Italy, Spain and Portugal) European roads are no worse that those in the UK. We always get the most rattles and thumps in the first and last 5 miles of our journey, thanks to KCC.

I wonder how many of those Swift and Autotrail owners that spend a lot of time abroad realise its effect on their warranties?

 

[Ralph Hardwick]

Mmmm, it would seem that you are correct and I typed too soon.

The 2017 and earlier warranty contained this clause:

7. The SuperSure, Body Shell and Extended Body Shell Warranties only apply to motorhomes purchased and used primarily within the UK, which means that the motorhome is not used for continuous journeys outside of the UK of longer than 90 days per journey. Please refer to the Fiat handbook for use of the base vehicle outside the UK.

Rather worryingly this has been changed in the latest version to read:

7. The SuperSure, Body Shell and Extended Body Shell Warranties only apply to motorhomes purchased and used primarily within the UK. Please refer to the Fiat handbook for use of the base vehicle outside the UK.

It would seem that anyone taking a new Swift over the channel (even for a weekend) could be impacting the body shell warranty. Interestingly I can't see how the Fiat Handbook is relevant to the Swift added bodywork!

Thank you for this I shall make sure that I clarify the point (in writing) before buying.

Reading the updated Swift clause again it is actually less prescriptive rather than more. It now doesn't set a fixed 90-day limit, it simply leaves you to prove that the motorhome was/is used 'primarily' in the UK. In the simplest sense, this would mean spending less than 6 months in any year out of the country i.e. the majority of use is UK based.

I assume that this is because of some legal UK Type approval style rules preventing you from buying a UK model and using it full time overseas.

Saying that I shall ensure that I get clarification in writing.

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[Lenny HB]

Horses for courses mate. I lost £23000 in depreciation in 2 years and that was trading in!! I wouldn't say that was low depreciation.

Last van lost 6K over 3 years on a trade in, less than 3% a year. A good reason to stick with German vans.

 

[Blue Knight]

....... It now doesn't set a fixed 90-day limit, it simply leaves you to prove that the motorhome was/is used 'primarily' in the UK. In the simplest sense, this would mean spending less than 6 months in any year out of the country i.e. the majority of use is UK based.

I would probably disagree on this point Ralph as the legal argument would be built on the MoHo being used primarily in the UK; i.e. if you were to use the van for 80-days in any 365-day period then the balance would at best be 41-39 in favour of UK usage.

Don't forget that the whole Swift warranty is fundamentally based on a 'recreational use only' caveat so using a van abroad for a slither under 6-months in any twelve would likely void all entitlement to a claim.

However, that said; how would Swift prove that you had exceeded this type of warranty stipulation

 

[peterc10]

Reading the updated Swift clause again it is actually less prescriptive rather than more. It now doesn't set a fixed 90-day limit, it simply leaves you to prove that the motorhome was/is used 'primarily' in the UK. In the simplest sense, this would mean spending less than 6 months in any year out of the country i.e. the majority of use is UK based.

I assume that this is because of some legal UK Type approval style rules preventing you from buying a UK model and using it full time overseas.

Saying that I shall ensure that I get clarification in writing.

I do not read it that way. I think it is more restrictive. Primarily is defined in the previous version as the 90 day limit, but there is no limitation on the number of those trips. Primarily is no longer defined in the new ones, which means it will have its normal meaning. My dictionary defines that as "principally, chiefly mainly". I think that will mean a lot more than 50% in the UK.

 

[Ralph Hardwick]

In our case we have plans to travel to Norway, Morocco, Eire, Iceland and a few pottering trips around Europe. These will be maximum 3-4 months and we will, probably, only do one each year. Our biggest plan is to retrace a trip we did in the Land Rover and travel to Turkey, via the eastern Adriatic coast then getting a ferry to southern Italy to return. I can foresee that trip taking longer (maybe 5 months). The vast majority of what we want to do will involve touring the UK.

So, barring the Turkey trip our use will be 'primarily' UK based and even then that trip duration will still be the smaller proportion of that particular year.

Although I shall seek clarification I don't think it will impact us.

Saying that it is a sneaky clause to put in the warranty

 

[peterc10]

In our case we have plans to travel to Norway, Morocco, Eire, Iceland and a few pottering trips around Europe. These will be maximum 3-4 months and we will, probably, only do one each year. Our biggest plan is to retrace a trip we did in the Land Rover and travel to Turkey, via the eastern Adriatic coast then getting a ferry to southern Italy to return. I can foresee that trip taking longer (maybe 5 months). The vast majority of what we want to do will involve touring the UK.

So, barring the Turkey trip our use will be 'primarily' UK based and even then that trip duration will still be the smaller proportion of that particular year.

Although I shall seek clarification I don't think it will impact us.

Saying that it is a sneaky clause to put in the warranty

My concern is as to why they think it is necessary. Does not show much confidence in their own products does it.

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[Ralph Hardwick]

TBH I can't see any reason for it other than a legalese issue about using a UK spec vehicle overseas or to do with local warranty support for the bodyshell outside the UK.

It can't be a quality/confidence issue because it makes no difference to the usage if you're driving on the wrong side of the road.
I can understand if it was specified like Land Rover where you had a RTW (Rest of The World) exclusion. This applied to less developed countries where the road surfaces exposed the vehicle to extra stresses.

 

[Minxy]

I agree with @Blue Knight ... its the USE that's stipulated, not location of the vehicle, so if you use it abroad for 3 months, then in the UK only for 1 month and make a claim in theory at least Swift could say you've breached the warranty terms.

Whilst it would be difficult for Swift to prove your usage it is too easy to let slip how you've used it when discussing it with your dealer who will put the claim in, or Swift direct.

 

[Ralph Hardwick]

I think we may be going down a 'rabbit hole' of ifs, buts, possibles and maybes.

There are thousands of Swift owners, many of which have spent longish periods overseas during their warranty period.

Many have made claims, many have not. There may well have been occasions when the 90 day rule could easily have been used to refuse a claim, but this specific timescale has been removed (unless I buy a 2017 van of course!).

So, as I see it;
Firstly I have to have a problem that requires a claim on the bodyshell (I'll keep my fingers crossed).
Secondly, this has to happen during a period when we are 'primarily' using the van outside the UK (probably likely only once over the next few years)
Thirdly, Swift has to know that the 'secondly' thing applies and have to prove it by defining exactly what 'primarily' and 'use' means (and know exactly how much we have or have not used it) .
Fourthly.......there is no fourthly

I don't think I will lose too much sleep over it.


Of course, when we are in Italy, on the 91st day of our tour and the roof starts delaminating, I might well think differently

 

[Puddleduck]

We did what we said we would never ever do :

1 We bought a new van
2 We bought at a show
3 It was a factory order

We got a brilliant van that is ideal for us. The "show offers" included over £5,000 of valuable extras. Because it was a factory order they strengthened the roof supports knowing we would have a roof rack and kayaks up top. The dealer (Geoff Cox) has been top rate and I can recommend the company as everyone we have deal with has been very helpful. There was a delay on the arrival of our van which was frustrating but we were kept up to date about the situation and asked if we wanted to cancel. Our trade in price was honoured even though we continued to use the van we already had.

We were not pressured into the purchase and Gavin and Phil both insisted we go away and think about the deal (overnight or for a couple of days).

We have had minor problems (all complex units will have some issues no matter if they are new or second hand) but all has been sorted out to everyone's satisfaction. Our issues were with leaks on the water supply system and the water pump. We now carry a spare water pump with us - and now we have it I bet we will still have it unused when we sell the van on The water supply issues were sorted out, one under warranty (a pipe cut a bit short and not bedded into the push fit connector correctly - the dealer replaced the pipe and the connector) and the other was a little more fiddly but sorted out by a local company and Adria reimbursed us even though the van was out of warranty.

 

[peterc10]

It is not just the bodyshell warranty, it is the supershore one (for all the other parts) as well.

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[Southdowners]

All motorhomes have their 'issues'. There's so many component parts and so many manufacturers of said parts it's almost inevitable.

Having bought two vehicles from the same dealer with whom had dreadful/non-existant after sales service my advice would be to ensure that you buy from a dealership with a good reputation. Our third vehicle was purchased from an entirely different dealership and the after sales service we have received from them is excellent. We have had problems but they have been dealt with in a professional manner both here in the UK and on the continent. It has made all the difference.

There are dealer reviews on this site and I'd advise checking it out prior to purchase.