Asking for a refund - how to calculate fair wear and tear?

Y

YellowJools

Joined
May 10, 2023
Posts
7
Likes collected
67
Location
Southsea, Portsmouth, UK
Funster No
95,871
MH
Bailey Adamo 75-4i
Exp
2007
We bought at brand new motorhome from a local Hampshire dealer in September 2023. With some extras we had fitted by the dealer before purchase (wifi, tracker, alarm, etc) we paid just shy of £78,000. We've had mechanical and habitation problems from the 2nd day, we've taken it back to them twice for repairs and as its a Ford cab, we've also taken it to Ford. They most recently had the van for repairs for 2 weeks in March and immediately after we got it back we went to France for 2 weeks, where we promptly broke down and it took a week to fix (during which time the AA put us up in a hotel). When we got back we took legal advice and are within our rights to ask for a refund which we've done (we have a very long paper trail supporting our claim the vehicle is of poor quality and not fit for purpose and they are in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015). They have tried to offer us a replacement vehicle but we've lost all confidence in the company, the quality of vehicles they sell and their after sales service. So we're at the point where we're about to start negotiating a price. They are entitled to make a reasonable adjustment for fair wear and tear. This must be a genuine and justifiable estimate of the loss of value caused by our use (such as mileage) and not it’s second-hand, trade-in or re-sale value. Nor can they make a reduction based on the vehicle faults not caused by our usage.

Due the various and numerous problems we've had, in the 272 days we've owned the van, we've had just 29 days use out of it and its been off the road waiting for repairs or being repaired for 105 days and counting. Its a 2023 plate and the mileage is 2261. There are some minor external scuffs but otherwise its still in showroom condition.

We've done some homework and nowhere can we find a "formula" for calculating what might be a reasonable reduction for wear and tear based on our usage. Does anyone have any thoughts or experience of this?
 
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Barti Ddu said:
If you're entitled to reject the motorhome, as it sounds like you are, then the seller shouldn't deduct anything for ordinary fair wear and tear, although they are entitled to deduct for anything above this, e.g. minor collision damage, stained upholstery, etc.

They are entitled to deduct an amount for your reasonable use of the vehicle. The starting point for cars is often 45p per mile (the standard HMRC figure used to calculate mileage allowances for work). However for a leisure vehicle, the hire costs for 29 days of use might be more appropriate.

However, whilst you've obviously had some limited use of the motorhome, I'd be making the point that it has been out of action for sufficient time that you've suffered "loss of enjoyment" of it, as a solicitor might put it. I'd be counter claiming for this.

I'd be aiming to get a complete refund with no reductions. Both parties walking away in the same position as they were pre-contract.

But as Carpmart says, first you've got to reject the motorhome, or all else becomes academic.
Click to expand...
This is exactly what I would be aiming for.
 
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Hire costs per day are in the region of £100-£150 depending on season, so that's £2900 - £4350.
Did you finance any of the cost?
The HP company may take an interest
 
Upvote 0
FINAL OUTCOME: We've now resolved this with the dealer so thought it might be helpful to post where we ended up.

A little more backstory; when we first started having problems (day 2) we phoned the dealer immediately and then listed everything in an email. Most of our dealings since then have been by email and when we've spoken to them on the phone, including to their Managing Director at one point, we've followed up with an email. So we have a strong audit trail to prove there have been problems since purchase. We have also returned the motorhome to them twice for repairs and taken it to a Ford dealership once.

After the last breakdown in France, we decided we wanted to return it and investigated our options; we paid the deposit on credit card and the balance in cash so we looked at Section 75 and Chargeback but both of these have time limits for claims to be made and amounts that you can claim are capped which ruled them out. As we paid cash there is no finance company to get involved on our behalf.

So we spoke to Citizens Advice and used the legal advice that came with our motorhome insurance with Comfort Insurance - they both told us we had a good case under the Consumer Rights Act (CRA) 2015. The CRA states that goods need to be of a satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described. We believe our motorhome is not of a satisfactory quality and not fit for purpose.

The CRA states if a product develops a fault within the first six months after purchase, it’s assumed it has been there since the time of purchase. This means it’s up to the retailer to prove it wasn’t there when you bought it. If a repair or replacement has failed, you have the right to reject the goods for a full refund or price reduction. If a fault develops after six months, it’s up to you to prove it was faulty at the time of purchase or delivery. We've had the motorhome 8 months but we can evidence the problems have existed from day 1.

We're legally obliged to give then one chance to repair, we have given them two, three if you count Ford. We can therefore now "return and reject" for a refund and they can make a deduction for usage but not for depreciation.

We drafted a letter setting setting all of this out and our claim for a refund, we attached a full timeline (which we had already sent a few months previously) and sent this by recorded delivery and by email with a Read Receipt.

We then went back and forth by email for a few weeks and were offered a replacement vehicle twice (first an alternative from the dealer, then a brand new motorhome with the same spec from the manufacturer Bailey). We turned both of these down on the grounds we had lost confidence in the dealer and in Bailey motorhomes and stuck to our guns about the refund. We then started investigating how "wear and tear" might be calculated hence the question on this forum as there is very little guidance out there.

One of the suggestions on this chat was to use rental costs as a benchmark and we considered this until we remembered that rental costs include rental company overheads such as storage, servicing, cleaning, repairs, MOT, insurance, breakdown, etc. Therefore it was not such a good yardstick as we'd be offsetting against costs we have already paid ourselves.

The HMRC mileage rate of £0.45 for cars and vans (as quoted currently on HMRC website) seemed more appropriate to our situation and thanks to gerry-mcg.44285 signposting us to a post on the Pistonheads site, we have a precedent.

After we rejected the offer of an alternative vehicle we waited for the refund offer, expecting this is where the battle would really begin. However the dealer surprised us with a far higher offer than we were expecting. We could have haggled for another £1k or so but in the end we just wanted it sorted so we accepted. The van was returned last Friday and money in the bank the same day. It's done and dusted and taken 5 weeks in total.

We parroted the legal protections of the Consumer Rights Act in all our dealings as we thought this gave us the best chance of getting what we wanted which was to hand the motorhome back with an amount of money we could live with, without it dragging on, causing us lots of stress, hassle and money e.g. going to court. That seems to have worked and we're happy with the outcome.

Thanks to everyone for their input, it really was a big help and I hope this thread is of use to anyone else who might find themselves in a similar position.
 
Upvote 0
YellowJools said:
FINAL OUTCOME: We've now resolved this with the dealer so thought it might be helpful to post where we ended up.

A little more backstory; when we first started having problems (day 2) we phoned the dealer immediately and then listed everything in an email. Most of our dealings since then have been by email and when we've spoken to them on the phone, including to their Managing Director at one point, we've followed up with an email. So we have a strong audit trail to prove there have been problems since purchase. We have also returned the motorhome to them twice for repairs and taken it to a Ford dealership once.

After the last breakdown in France, we decided we wanted to return it and investigated our options; we paid the deposit on credit card and the balance in cash so we looked at Section 75 and Chargeback but both of these have time limits for claims to be made and amounts that you can claim are capped which ruled them out. As we paid cash there is no finance company to get involved on our behalf.

So we spoke to Citizens Advice and used the legal advice that came with our motorhome insurance with Comfort Insurance - they both told us we had a good case under the Consumer Rights Act (CRA) 2015. The CRA states that goods need to be of a satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described. We believe our motorhome is not of a satisfactory quality and not fit for purpose.

The CRA states if a product develops a fault within the first six months after purchase, it’s assumed it has been there since the time of purchase. This means it’s up to the retailer to prove it wasn’t there when you bought it. If a repair or replacement has failed, you have the right to reject the goods for a full refund or price reduction. If a fault develops after six months, it’s up to you to prove it was faulty at the time of purchase or delivery. We've had the motorhome 8 months but we can evidence the problems have existed from day 1.

We're legally obliged to give then one chance to repair, we have given them two, three if you count Ford. We can therefore now "return and reject" for a refund and they can make a deduction for usage but not for depreciation.

We drafted a letter setting setting all of this out and our claim for a refund, we attached a full timeline (which we had already sent a few months previously) and sent this by recorded delivery and by email with a Read Receipt.

We then went back and forth by email for a few weeks and were offered a replacement vehicle twice (first an alternative from the dealer, then a brand new motorhome with the same spec from the manufacturer Bailey). We turned both of these down on the grounds we had lost confidence in the dealer and in Bailey motorhomes and stuck to our guns about the refund. We then started investigating how "wear and tear" might be calculated hence the question on this forum as there is very little guidance out there.

One of the suggestions on this chat was to use rental costs as a benchmark and we considered this until we remembered that rental costs include rental company overheads such as storage, servicing, cleaning, repairs, MOT, insurance, breakdown, etc. Therefore it was not such a good yardstick as we'd be offsetting against costs we have already paid ourselves.

The HMRC mileage rate of £0.45 for cars and vans (as quoted currently on HMRC website) seemed more appropriate to our situation and thanks to gerry-mcg.44285 signposting us to a post on the Pistonheads site, we have a precedent.

After we rejected the offer of an alternative vehicle we waited for the refund offer, expecting this is where the battle would really begin. However the dealer surprised us with a far higher offer than we were expecting. We could have haggled for another £1k or so but in the end we just wanted it sorted so we accepted. The van was returned last Friday and money in the bank the same day. It's done and dusted and taken 5 weeks in total.

We parroted the legal protections of the Consumer Rights Act in all our dealings as we thought this gave us the best chance of getting what we wanted which was to hand the motorhome back with an amount of money we could live with, without it dragging on, causing us lots of stress, hassle and money e.g. going to court. That seems to have worked and we're happy with the outcome.

Thanks to everyone for their input, it really was a big help and I hope this thread is of use to anyone else who might find themselves in a similar position.
Click to expand...
Two things.

One, excellent you've achieved a result that meets with your expectations / desires! (y)

And, two, you came back with the final outcome and updated the gang. A lot of folk don't!
(y):notworthy2:(y):notworthy2:(y)

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Glad you managed to get it sorted. Hope you find a much better van and make lots of happy memories.
 
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Great outcome.. glad you’ve got it sorted and thanks for the detailed post 👏🏼👍🏼
 
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I am so glad you have a satisfactory outcome to a most unsatisfactory experience. Please let us know if you move on and get something else.

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YellowJools said:
FINAL OUTCOME: We've now resolved this with the dealer so thought it might be helpful to post where we ended up.

A little more backstory; when we first started having problems (day 2) we phoned the dealer immediately and then listed everything in an email. Most of our dealings since then have been by email and when we've spoken to them on the phone, including to their Managing Director at one point, we've followed up with an email. So we have a strong audit trail to prove there have been problems since purchase. We have also returned the motorhome to them twice for repairs and taken it to a Ford dealership once.

After the last breakdown in France, we decided we wanted to return it and investigated our options; we paid the deposit on credit card and the balance in cash so we looked at Section 75 and Chargeback but both of these have time limits for claims to be made and amounts that you can claim are capped which ruled them out. As we paid cash there is no finance company to get involved on our behalf.

So we spoke to Citizens Advice and used the legal advice that came with our motorhome insurance with Comfort Insurance - they both told us we had a good case under the Consumer Rights Act (CRA) 2015. The CRA states that goods need to be of a satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described. We believe our motorhome is not of a satisfactory quality and not fit for purpose.

The CRA states if a product develops a fault within the first six months after purchase, it’s assumed it has been there since the time of purchase. This means it’s up to the retailer to prove it wasn’t there when you bought it. If a repair or replacement has failed, you have the right to reject the goods for a full refund or price reduction. If a fault develops after six months, it’s up to you to prove it was faulty at the time of purchase or delivery. We've had the motorhome 8 months but we can evidence the problems have existed from day 1.

We're legally obliged to give then one chance to repair, we have given them two, three if you count Ford. We can therefore now "return and reject" for a refund and they can make a deduction for usage but not for depreciation.

We drafted a letter setting setting all of this out and our claim for a refund, we attached a full timeline (which we had already sent a few months previously) and sent this by recorded delivery and by email with a Read Receipt.

We then went back and forth by email for a few weeks and were offered a replacement vehicle twice (first an alternative from the dealer, then a brand new motorhome with the same spec from the manufacturer Bailey). We turned both of these down on the grounds we had lost confidence in the dealer and in Bailey motorhomes and stuck to our guns about the refund. We then started investigating how "wear and tear" might be calculated hence the question on this forum as there is very little guidance out there.

One of the suggestions on this chat was to use rental costs as a benchmark and we considered this until we remembered that rental costs include rental company overheads such as storage, servicing, cleaning, repairs, MOT, insurance, breakdown, etc. Therefore it was not such a good yardstick as we'd be offsetting against costs we have already paid ourselves.

The HMRC mileage rate of £0.45 for cars and vans (as quoted currently on HMRC website) seemed more appropriate to our situation and thanks to gerry-mcg.44285 signposting us to a post on the Pistonheads site, we have a precedent.

After we rejected the offer of an alternative vehicle we waited for the refund offer, expecting this is where the battle would really begin. However the dealer surprised us with a far higher offer than we were expecting. We could have haggled for another £1k or so but in the end we just wanted it sorted so we accepted. The van was returned last Friday and money in the bank the same day. It's done and dusted and taken 5 weeks in total.

We parroted the legal protections of the Consumer Rights Act in all our dealings as we thought this gave us the best chance of getting what we wanted which was to hand the motorhome back with an amount of money we could live with, without it dragging on, causing us lots of stress, hassle and money e.g. going to court. That seems to have worked and we're happy with the outcome.

Thanks to everyone for their input, it really was a big help and I hope this thread is of use to anyone else who might find themselves in a similar position.
Click to expand...
Great result. Shows the value in documenting everything from day 1 to produce an audit trail with supporting evidence and seeking professional legal advice (I count Citizens Advice in this as well as the legal service provided though your insurance).
 
Upvote 0
So in the end what did they deduct for wear and tear etc?

We have the original purchase figure but unless I missed it no refund figure.
 
Upvote 0
YellowJools said:
We bought at brand new motorhome from a local Hampshire dealer in September 2023. With some extras we had fitted by the dealer before purchase (wifi, tracker, alarm, etc) we paid just shy of £78,000. We've had mechanical and habitation problems from the 2nd day, we've taken it back to them twice for repairs and as its a Ford cab, we've also taken it to Ford. They most recently had the van for repairs for 2 weeks in March and immediately after we got it back we went to France for 2 weeks, where we promptly broke down and it took a week to fix (during which time the AA put us up in a hotel). When we got back we took legal advice and are within our rights to ask for a refund which we've done (we have a very long paper trail supporting our claim the vehicle is of poor quality and not fit for purpose and they are in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015). They have tried to offer us a replacement vehicle but we've lost all confidence in the company, the quality of vehicles they sell and their after sales service. So we're at the point where we're about to start negotiating a price. They are entitled to make a reasonable adjustment for fair wear and tear. This must be a genuine and justifiable estimate of the loss of value caused by our use (such as mileage) and not it’s second-hand, trade-in or re-sale value. Nor can they make a reduction based on the vehicle faults not caused by our usage.

Due the various and numerous problems we've had, in the 272 days we've owned the van, we've had just 29 days use out of it and its been off the road waiting for repairs or being repaired for 105 days and counting. Its a 2023 plate and the mileage is 2261. There are some minor external scuffs but otherwise its still in showroom condition.

We've done some homework and nowhere can we find a "formula" for calculating what might be a reasonable reduction for wear and tear based on our usage. Does anyone have any thoughts or experience of this?
Click to expand...
Maybe you are the formula my friend!!
This thread will probably attract a lot of interest especially that campervan/Motorhome companies and the main propulsion units/chassis (Ford/Mercedes/citroen/Fiat etc etc) have gone into overdrive on orders the last few years post covid.
Due to the extraordinary orders, shortcuts in quality will undoubtedly be a common theme.
Looks like you have your finger on the pulse so well done in not accepting shoddy quality the very best of luck.

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YellowJools said:
It's all a bit finger in the air. We're expecting them to come back with a silly offer that seeks to minimise their losses so we want some reasonable/ logical arguments to counter with. Using rental costs is a really good starting point. Thanks Phil 👍
Click to expand...
You could start by
YellowJools said:
FINAL OUTCOME: We've now resolved this with the dealer so thought it might be helpful to post where we ended up.

A little more backstory; when we first started having problems (day 2) we phoned the dealer immediately and then listed everything in an email. Most of our dealings since then have been by email and when we've spoken to them on the phone, including to their Managing Director at one point, we've followed up with an email. So we have a strong audit trail to prove there have been problems since purchase. We have also returned the motorhome to them twice for repairs and taken it to a Ford dealership once.

After the last breakdown in France, we decided we wanted to return it and investigated our options; we paid the deposit on credit card and the balance in cash so we looked at Section 75 and Chargeback but both of these have time limits for claims to be made and amounts that you can claim are capped which ruled them out. As we paid cash there is no finance company to get involved on our behalf.

So we spoke to Citizens Advice and used the legal advice that came with our motorhome insurance with Comfort Insurance - they both told us we had a good case under the Consumer Rights Act (CRA) 2015. The CRA states that goods need to be of a satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described. We believe our motorhome is not of a satisfactory quality and not fit for purpose.

The CRA states if a product develops a fault within the first six months after purchase, it’s assumed it has been there since the time of purchase. This means it’s up to the retailer to prove it wasn’t there when you bought it. If a repair or replacement has failed, you have the right to reject the goods for a full refund or price reduction. If a fault develops after six months, it’s up to you to prove it was faulty at the time of purchase or delivery. We've had the motorhome 8 months but we can evidence the problems have existed from day 1.

We're legally obliged to give then one chance to repair, we have given them two, three if you count Ford. We can therefore now "return and reject" for a refund and they can make a deduction for usage but not for depreciation.

We drafted a letter setting setting all of this out and our claim for a refund, we attached a full timeline (which we had already sent a few months previously) and sent this by recorded delivery and by email with a Read Receipt.

We then went back and forth by email for a few weeks and were offered a replacement vehicle twice (first an alternative from the dealer, then a brand new motorhome with the same spec from the manufacturer Bailey). We turned both of these down on the grounds we had lost confidence in the dealer and in Bailey motorhomes and stuck to our guns about the refund. We then started investigating how "wear and tear" might be calculated hence the question on this forum as there is very little guidance out there.

One of the suggestions on this chat was to use rental costs as a benchmark and we considered this until we remembered that rental costs include rental company overheads such as storage, servicing, cleaning, repairs, MOT, insurance, breakdown, etc. Therefore it was not such a good yardstick as we'd be offsetting against costs we have already paid ourselves.

The HMRC mileage rate of £0.45 for cars and vans (as quoted currently on HMRC website) seemed more appropriate to our situation and thanks to gerry-mcg.44285 signposting us to a post on the Pistonheads site, we have a precedent.

After we rejected the offer of an alternative vehicle we waited for the refund offer, expecting this is where the battle would really begin. However the dealer surprised us with a far higher offer than we were expecting. We could have haggled for another £1k or so but in the end we just wanted it sorted so we accepted. The van was returned last Friday and money in the bank the same day. It's done and dusted and taken 5 weeks in total.

We parroted the legal protections of the Consumer Rights Act in all our dealings as we thought this gave us the best chance of getting what we wanted which was to hand the motorhome back with an amount of money we could live with, without it dragging on, causing us lots of stress, hassle and money e.g. going to court. That seems to have worked and we're happy with the outcome.

Thanks to everyone for their input, it really was a big help and I hope this thread is of use to anyone else who might find themselves in a similar position.
Click to expand...
That's great news , how did you end up getting back ???
 
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Sensible polite persistence and everything documented has paid off
Very well done
Hope it hasn’t put you off looking for another MH, if that’s is what you want going forward 😊
 
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TDub49 said:
Great result. Shows the value in documenting everything from day 1 to produce an audit trail with supporting evidence and seeking professional legal advice (I count Citizens Advice in this as well as the legal service provided though your insurance).
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Northernraider said:
So in the end what did they deduct for wear and tear etc?

We have the original purchase figure but unless I missed it no refund figure.
Click to expand...

Would be interesting to know the finical outcome

For me , I rejected 2 new MoHo’s , in a 2 year period
Done 5k miles on the last one , total loss was around 4-5 k
But spent another 20k on upgrading to new MoHo
 
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Well done for sticking with it, unfortunately it’s the people that just roll over and take crap products and service that are making the situation worse☹️
As with new build houses dealers and manufacturers know a big percentage will drop out when they are ignored/messed about with their complaints and a good number will have a go at fixing issues themselves, this is playing into the hands of these firms as they know then then only have to sort out the last few die hards🤔🤔🤔

If more people started standing against these firms instead of rolling over no doubt quality and service will get better😁😁

I rejected my new van I bought from Germany as the manufacturer thought they could ignore me then expecting me to deliver it to Germany then collect and inspect the work to make sure it’s ok😳😳 told them that’s not happening and gave them the name of a German solicitor a friend gave me and said deal with these people!! Funnily how a few days later they arranged to collect the van from home and then return it 2 weeks later😁😁
 
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Wonder if we will get another post in the future from some unsuspecting buyer.

Well done getting your money back, but you can be pretty sure that it will be back on the forecourt sharpish.

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I guess we're not getting to know how much was refunded so will never know if it was a good outcome or not.

Pity as it may have helped other members in future.

No me like cause I'd never buy a new one 🤪
 
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