Are the days of the motorhome numbered?

[LithiumConvert]

I suggest, Yes.

Why? Because the emissions regulations (among others), mean that the manufacturers are finding it increasinly difficult to build a motorhome that complies wth the regulations and is fit for the purpose that we are looking for.

 

[starquake]

Worth noting, similar to JVC and hydrogen there is a reason why we're not hearing about HGV and cat 1 or 2 trucks using EV today. It's not because they not developing product, neither down to the public charging network being not ready as that really doesn't matter for the early adopters.. Remember many C1/C2 are for hub to spoke delivery sites, and hub to hub. (ie, not final stage delivery). So companies wanting to use EV HGV need their chargers in the hub sites first so they can do enough range to not need to stop and public charge at all and get to/from their hubs and chargers on a single charge. First thing you replace is your own demand next is your inbound deliveries.

Why I mention Hydrogen, same reason, theres literally sub 10 working H2 sites in UK today for car fill. However I expect sites USING H2 HGV and plant to have their own tankage, similar to how anyone doing serious trucking (and the H2 buses in UK arleady) mostly uses their own DERV or H2 pumps even now. So we will see H2 in use in trucking...

And I mixed up Rivian and Arrival as er, they looked quite similar from the headlamps I saw. Rivian has a better touchscreen so you right, it's Rivian in US amazons case.

 

[Guigsy]

Oh thats neat, Amazon are not using the Arrival vans (yet) in UK around here so I've not seen them in flesh, they're using similar PVC convsions to DPD from various brands around here. WOuld make a great motorhome if amazon ever get rid of them ... I suspect they'll run into ground as they'll last a LOT longer than a diesel though. (With Tesla batt/drivetrains lasting 350k miles it'll be longer I'm sure).

All the Amazon eSprinters around me are beaten to crap! Loads of dents, scrapes and gouges. I'm not sure if it's because they are hated, hard to drive, or that they are very peppy. Pretty common to hear them chirp the tyres just doing manoeuvrers!

Apparently they only get about 100 miles from them.

 

[Otter Spotter]

All motorhomes are built on an equivalent van chassis so are not classified as a car . As long as commercial vans are for sale there is no reason to stop building motorhomes.
It‘s extremely rare to ban anything where there is no suitable alternative.
BTW, I don’t think for a second that EV will be the answer as the more market share they get, the shortcoming’s are going to increase. Remember Betamax was going to take over and then CD’s. Tech evolves and we still have other options that are being worked on that aren’t ready yet but certainly some of them will be.

Hand guns were banned

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

Hand guns were banned

Absolutely true and there are probably more now than before the ban (no alternative?)

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[Guigsy]

Absolutely true and there are probably more now than before the ban (no alternative?)

Is that true? The number is certainly very low. We've been living in the centre of Birmingham for 15 years and we've only heard a gun once. Never seen one.

Stats, gun deaths per year:
1969 - 26
1994 - 66
(Dunblane)
2021/22 - 28

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

Towing the extra battery instead of in the van gives more payload

But still rates against Max train weight...... To be fair though a lack of trailer ulw would go towards the weight of the cabling in the MoHo and make sure you don't take too many socks!

 

[Mzracer]

But still rates against Max train weight...... To be fair though a lack of trailer ulw would go towards the weight of the cabling in the MoHo and make sure you don't take too many socks!

Max train weight would all get forgotten just like going from 3.5 tonnes to 4.25 tonnes to aid EV switch over !!

Either 3.5 tonnes was a valid figure or it was not, a total load of bollocks is probably the answer.

 

[Jonno1103]

I do agree with you that it’s all about economics….despite fossil fuels getting more subsidies than renewables almost every year since 2015, renewables are cheaper and getting cheaper. That is a compelling reason to decarbonise - and to stop paying the Arabs and Putin for energy

I am mystified by the high environmental hurdles people routinely put in renewables and EV’s way…. We’ve been chewing the planet up for 100 years producing oil and gas - it’s not like it’s a green fuel to produce. Why does the new, renewable energy source which in time could well be almost negligible cost to generate, have to be squeaky clean green as well for people to support it ?

Great points to discuss. Personally I'm all in favour of renewables, in my post I was keen to highlight how recyclable vehicles are today and how landfill can be used to produce cleaner energy. I have relatives who own a fuel company in Scotland and have had personal experience in using HVO an alternative fuel I will enthusiastically use when it becomes available mainstream.

My concern is the narrative regarding EV's is that they are THE silver bullet when in real terms they're not. Production actually involves more synthetic materials created by fossil fuel refining. We have vehicle manufacturers now solely concentrating on battery powered cars & vans which to me says they're not prepared to keep seeking alternatives... they've made their decision so as global players this is the way forward.

 

[Mzracer]

Great points to discuss. Personally I'm all in favour of renewables, in my post I was keen to highlight how recyclable vehicles are today and how landfill can be used to produce cleaner energy. I have relatives who own a fuel company in Scotland and have had personal experience in using HVO an alternative fuel I will enthusiastically use when it becomes available mainstream.

My concern is the narrative regarding EV's is that they are THE silver bullet when in real terms they're not. Production actually involves more synthetic materials created by fossil fuel refining. We have vehicle manufacturers now solely concentrating on battery powered cars & vans which to me says they're not prepared to keep seeking alternatives... they've made their decision so as global players this is the way forward.

I don't think that the automakers are totally blind to alternatives, see below. However there is strong direction from governments as to which way vehicle energy should go, do you remember how that went last time there was such a directive?

BMW Group brings hydrogen cars to the road: BMW iX5 Hydrogen pilot fleet launches.

Important next phase: pilot vehicles in real-world use deliver valuable knowledge +++ Paving the way for potential series production

www.press.bmwgroup.com

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Is Revving Up: BMW and Toyota Lead The Way to Zero-Emission Vehicles

Discover how BMW and Toyota are accelerating the shift to hydrogen-powered vehicles, revolutionizing the automotive industry.

carboncredits.com

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[starquake]

My concern is the narrative regarding EV's is that they are THE silver bullet when in real terms they're not. Production actually involves more synthetic materials created by fossil fuel refining. We have vehicle manufacturers now solely concentrating on battery powered cars & vans which to me says they're not prepared to keep seeking alternatives... they've made their decision so as global players this is the way forward

I think it's the reality of whats happened in Norway thats hit vehicle manufacters hard. Manufacturers like Toyota who had no credible EV until recently going from a high market share to 0 in a matter of 2-3 years has hit them hard. ( https://www.statista.com/statistics... 2022, about 88 percent,at 56 percent in 2019. )

You also have to look at demand. PVC's being a key example, would you as a delivery hub organisation buy new diesel one or a new electric one when the running costs of the 2 years of operation of one versus other is roughly 5x the cost. (without talking about engine service and other things, but still talking tyres). You have to remember the costs of EV are well known now by bean counters given they've had to (due to tax incentives) use EV for all corporate cars (lets face it with 0% BIK last tax year and 1% this year, versus what 20+ % for a petrol! - who wouldn't). I work for a large ftse corporate, and the EV part of the expense policy makes interesting reading, and in real terms you won't get a petrol (or hybrid) out of them under any circumstance... Remember Petrol/Diesel make up the vast majority of corporate car costs, other than depreciation and tax. It may surprise you to know one of my previous work clients was an oil firm, and I saw the stats there, and over 90% of corporate cars were ... electric.. in year 2019-2020 when I moved... they had > 200 chargers at their HQ.

It's not they are the silver bullet -> it's more that they are that much lower cost after numbers, and companies are legally required to do what is best financially for their shareholders. So they are buying them.. Wierdly it's "normal" consumers who are buying hybrids, and they have that choice, and some do prefer them. And no, they don't meet all use cases, my father in laws business would not work with an EV as he DID genuinely do 450 miles a day for some clients -> as such he had a Hybrid.

 

[Mzracer]

I think it's the reality of whats happened in Norway thats hit vehicle manufacters hard. Manufacturers like Toyota who had no credible EV until recently going from a high market share to 0 in a matter of 2-3 years has hit them hard. ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/1029909/market-share-of-electric-cars-in-norway/#:~:text=In 2022, about 88 percent,at 56 percent in 2019. )

You also have to look at demand. PVC's being a key example, would you as a delivery hub organisation buy new diesel one or a new electric one when the running costs of the 2 years of operation of one versus other is roughly 5x the cost. (without talking about engine service and other things, but still talking tyres). You have to remember the costs of EV are well known now by bean counters given they've had to (due to tax incentives) use EV for all corporate cars (lets face it with 0% BIK last tax year and 1% this year, versus what 20+ % for a petrol! - who wouldn't). I work for a large ftse corporate, and the EV part of the expense policy makes interesting reading, and in real terms you won't get a petrol (or hybrid) out of them under any circumstance... Remember Petrol/Diesel make up the vast majority of corporate car costs, other than depreciation and tax. It may surprise you to know one of my previous work clients was an oil firm, and I saw the stats there, and over 90% of corporate cars were ... electric.. in year 2019-2020 when I moved... they had > 200 chargers at their HQ.

It's not they are the silver bullet -> it's more that they are that much lower cost after numbers, and companies are legally required to do what is best financially for their shareholders. So they are buying them.. Wierdly it's "normal" consumers who are buying hybrids, and they have that choice, and some do prefer them. And no, they don't meet all use cases, my father in laws business would not work with an EV as he DID genuinely do 450 miles a day for some clients -> as such he had a Hybrid.

If the cost-benefit is genuinely 5 x , I need to know where I am going wrong?

So the vehicle in question is a 2006 Golf SDi (non turbo), probably worth £1000 and we paid £3750 for it around 2012, so I thought to swap it for a SH Leaf with a budget up to maybe £5000, the energy saving is a little over a third so there is a hell of a lot of money to make up some where as I will bet that the Leaf will depreciate at around £500 to £750 per year (buy a lot of Golf SDi diesel for that money) the Golf although I hate it is ultra reliable, talk about cam belt changes, we don't even bother to change the oil !! and have put 120K miles on it.

 

[enark]

No,

see https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/ele...d-you-go-electric/running-cost-simulator.html

this would do the trick….

surprised that the fuel saving is only £300 per year though.

 

[enark]

I think it's the reality of whats happened in Norway thats hit vehicle manufacters hard. Manufacturers like Toyota who had no credible EV until recently going from a high market share to 0 in a matter of 2-3 years has hit them hard. ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/1029909/market-share-of-electric-cars-in-norway/#:~:text=In 2022, about 88 percent,at 56 percent in 2019. )

You also have to look at demand. PVC's being a key example, would you as a delivery hub organisation buy new diesel one or a new electric one when the running costs of the 2 years of operation of one versus other is roughly 5x the cost. (without talking about engine service and other things, but still talking tyres). You have to remember the costs of EV are well known now by bean counters given they've had to (due to tax incentives) use EV for all corporate cars (lets face it with 0% BIK last tax year and 1% this year, versus what 20+ % for a petrol! - who wouldn't). I work for a large ftse corporate, and the EV part of the expense policy makes interesting reading, and in real terms you won't get a petrol (or hybrid) out of them under any circumstance... Remember Petrol/Diesel make up the vast majority of corporate car costs, other than depreciation and tax. It may surprise you to know one of my previous work clients was an oil firm, and I saw the stats there, and over 90% of corporate cars were ... electric.. in year 2019-2020 when I moved... they had > 200 chargers at their HQ.

It's not they are the silver bullet -> it's more that they are that much lower cost after numbers, and companies are legally required to do what is best financially for their shareholders. So they are buying them.. Wierdly it's "normal" consumers who are buying hybrids, and they have that choice, and some do prefer them. And no, they don't meet all use cases, my father in laws business would not work with an EV as he DID genuinely do 450 miles a day for some clients -> as such he had a Hybrid.

And the irony….

NG purchased a few hundred land rover defenders (sensible version) from the last batch of production, as no other vehicle satisfies a linesman’s requirements…. most are still in storage for use in years to come.

 

[Mzracer]

No,

see https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/ele...d-you-go-electric/running-cost-simulator.html

this would do the trick….

surprised that the fuel saving is only £300 per year though.

Going to take ages to recover the delta between £5000 and £1000 .

It just does not stack. £238.00 is a paltry saving on fuel, then there is a bunch of deprecation.

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[Gromett]

there is a reason why we're not hearing about HGV and cat 1 or 2 trucks using EV today.

I am hearing LOADS about cat 1 trucks and quite a bit about cat 2. Although not sure they are called that anymore?

 

[nabsim]

A lot of the EV savings are only there if you have a cheap rate tariff and use home charging. The manufacturers are probably using public charging prices which an awful lot of people would have to use

 

[starquake]

If the cost-benefit is genuinely 5 x , I need to know where I am going wrong?

So the vehicle in question is a 2006 Golf SDi (non turbo), probably worth £1000 and we paid £3750 for it around 2012, so I thought to swap it for a SH Leaf with a budget up to maybe £5000, the energy saving is a little over a third so there is a hell of a lot of money to make up some where as I will bet that the Leaf will depreciate at around £500 to £750 per year (buy a lot of Golf SDi diesel for that money) the Golf although I hate it is ultra reliable, talk about cam belt changes, we don't even bother to change the oil !! and have put 120K miles on it.

Remember the main cost of a vehicle or van is the fuel not any of the sundries. A EV van gets ~ 2-2.5 mi a kwh when loaded. A van, 35mpg in best situation, not even winter, so 7 miles per litre, or a cost of £1.50/7 -ie, 21p a mile -> just in fuel. It's usually worse as we all know from our PVC and Coachbuilt MH's with 25mpg being common in winter.

EV charging even commercially is cheap rate as it's off peak as you stupid if not -> average wholesale offpeak electric prices are 10-15p a kwh this year, so 7.5p a mile worst case with assuming at bottom of range of 2 mi a kwh. If you have a bad deal and paying the "cap" you pay 15p a mile. Remember if you have a fleet of vans you are NOT paying the cap though, as you using that much electricity you will be on half hour metering, and charging your vans overnight as you deliver during the day/early evening to 9pm).

Add in lack of downtime due to servicing (a van being unavialable just one day means renting another) and you start seeing the extra multiples in cost from the 3x base cost. Thats the point it starts 3x in worst situation, in winter it'll start at 5x and get better.

Ref cars:

120K miles in a petrol or diesel car at 55mpg = 2181 gallons of fuel or ~9814 litres, so what £15k in fuel roughly.
120K miles in electric - most cars do 3.5-4.5mp kwh, so 34K kwh again assuming your EV does bottom of range (as it will in winter). If all charged at home that is £2300 (rate is 7.5p now via Intelligent octopus. I'm not telling you fact it was 5p a kwh last 2 years)., if a mix of home and public probably £5k. £10k saving or another EV in worst case. Probably way way more in reality as my EV does around 4.5mp-5 kwh in summer on a normal 70mph drive. May be worse if you can't charge at home though! The multiple on a 120K mile ownership is 6x at WORST just on the petrol.

Your comment on depreciation is the funny one, you could buy a older Leaf or Zoe for half what you can now a year ago in many cases, they've gone up in value so much due to people realising the above cost case. It's appreciation at moment not depreciation at the cheaper end of the market.

Sundries make the position WORSE for the petrol driver, given an average leaf/tesla needs 0 brake pads in 100K miles. Where a petrol/diesel needs at least 1, 6 oil changes if it's a 20K service interval. Roughly speaking £1k over the EV costs. Tax is £nil versus £220 per year ish.
Tyres broadly speaking are same cost from a SUV to a EV ...

I truely get it, I used to run old Mercs like your golf (for nearly 20 years), spending £1-3k on a new diesel merc doing 45-55mpg (I preferred the 3l v6 diesel varients of the SLK) every few years and servicing it until something bad went wrong then selling and repeating. However I'm also a realist and the ownership experieence was £250 a year to the local garage for the oil/maintaince, plus fuel. EV ownership is so much cheaper, and what made us change was the amount we spent on diesel even with a 55mpg Merc when doing 15K a year -> immediately dropped our monthly expenses from £200 to £20 on motoring.

BTW the comparison on the VW website is rubbish it's quoting electricity at £0.30 a kwh. Octopus have allegedly over half a million EV charge customers all paying £0.075 or £0.09 a kwh depending on tarrif.

 

[enark]

A lot of the EV savings are only there if you have a cheap rate tariff and use home charging. The manufacturers are probably using public charging prices which an awful lot of people would have to use

VW calculator allows you to customise for your own usage and charging….

 

[starquake]

A lot of the EV savings are only there if you have a cheap rate tariff and use home charging. The manufacturers are probably using public charging prices which an awful lot of people would have to use

Yeah but also not taking into account the various public charg discounts available.

Public charging price varies so much it's hard to cost as if you silly you pay £0.75 a kwh, whilst the person next to you is paying £0.30 OR LESS.

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[enark]

BTW the comparison on the VW website is rubbish it's quoting electricity at £0.30 a kwh. Octopus have allegedly over half a million EV charge customers all paying £0.075 or £0.09 a kwh depending on tarrif.


It’s variable for users circumstances, so actually VW calculator is pretty good…

regarding tariffs though, try as I might, can’t get an EV tariff with providers, and octopus don’t deliver to me….

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

I think it's the reality of whats happened in Norway thats hit vehicle manufacters hard. Manufacturers like Toyota who had no credible EV until recently going from a high market share to 0 in a matter of 2-3 years has hit them hard. ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/1029909/market-share-of-electric-cars-in-norway/#:~:text=In 2022, about 88 percent,at 56 percent in 2019. )

You also have to look at demand. PVC's being a key example, would you as a delivery hub organisation buy new diesel one or a new electric one when the running costs of the 2 years of operation of one versus other is roughly 5x the cost. (without talking about engine service and other things, but still talking tyres). You have to remember the costs of EV are well known now by bean counters given they've had to (due to tax incentives) use EV for all corporate cars (lets face it with 0% BIK last tax year and 1% this year, versus what 20+ % for a petrol! - who wouldn't). I work for a large ftse corporate, and the EV part of the expense policy makes interesting reading, and in real terms you won't get a petrol (or hybrid) out of them under any circumstance... Remember Petrol/Diesel make up the vast majority of corporate car costs, other than depreciation and tax. It may surprise you to know one of my previous work clients was an oil firm, and I saw the stats there, and over 90% of corporate cars were ... electric.. in year 2019-2020 when I moved... they had > 200 chargers at their HQ.

It's not they are the silver bullet -> it's more that they are that much lower cost after numbers, and companies are legally required to do what is best financially for their shareholders. So they are buying them.. Wierdly it's "normal" consumers who are buying hybrids, and they have that choice, and some do prefer them. And no, they don't meet all use cases, my father in laws business would not work with an EV as he DID genuinely do 450 miles a day for some clients -> as such he had a Hybrid.

Electric cars have been chosen by the 'Bean Counters' purely because of the TAX benefits for Limited Companies.
I went to look at a Mini Electric a couple of years ago as a private buyer and the salesman told me I'd be financially crackers unless I could claim the Tax breaks.

 

[Mzracer]

Remember the main cost of a vehicle or van is the fuel not any of the sundries. A EV van gets ~ 2-2.5 mi a kwh when loaded. A van, 35mpg in best situation, not even winter, so 7 miles per litre, or a cost of £1.50/7 -ie, 21p a mile -> just in fuel. It's usually worse as we all know from our PVC and Coachbuilt MH's with 25mpg being common in winter.

EV charging even commercially is cheap rate as it's off peak as you stupid if not -> average wholesale offpeak electric prices are 10-15p a kwh this year, so 7.5p a mile worst case with assuming at bottom of range of 2 mi a kwh. If you have a bad deal and paying the "cap" you pay 15p a mile. Remember if you have a fleet of vans you are NOT paying the cap though, as you using that much electricity you will be on half hour metering, and charging your vans overnight as you deliver during the day/early evening to 9pm).

Add in lack of downtime due to servicing (a van being unavialable just one day means renting another) and you start seeing the extra multiples in cost from the 3x base cost. Thats the point it starts 3x in worst situation, in winter it'll start at 5x and get better.

Ref cars:

120K miles in a petrol or diesel car at 55mpg = 2181 gallons of fuel or ~9814 litres, so what £15k in fuel roughly.
120K miles in electric - most cars do 3.5-4.5mp kwh, so 34K kwh again assuming your EV does bottom of range (as it will in winter). If all charged at home that is £2300 (rate is 7.5p now via Intelligent octopus. I'm not telling you fact it was 5p a kwh last 2 years)., if a mix of home and public probably £5k. £10k saving or another EV in worst case. Probably way way more in reality as my EV does around 4.5mp-5 kwh in summer on a normal 70mph drive. May be worse if you can't charge at home though! The multiple on a 120K mile ownership is 6x at WORST just on the petrol.

Your comment on depreciation is the funny one, you could buy a older Leaf or Zoe for half what you can now a year ago in many cases, they've gone up in value so much due to people realising the above cost case. It's appreciation at moment not depreciation at the cheaper end of the market.

Sundries make the position WORSE for the petrol driver, given an average leaf/tesla needs 0 brake pads in 100K miles. Where a petrol/diesel needs at least 1, 6 oil changes if it's a 20K service interval. Roughly speaking £1k over the EV costs. Tax is £nil versus £220 per year ish.
Tyres broadly speaking are same cost from a SUV to a EV ...

I truely get it, I used to run old Mercs like your golf (for nearly 20 years), spending £1-3k on a new diesel merc doing 45-55mpg (I preferred the 3l v6 diesel varients of the SLK) every few years and servicing it until something bad went wrong then selling and repeating. However I'm also a realist and the ownership experieence was £250 a year to the local garage for the oil/maintaince, plus fuel. EV ownership is so much cheaper, and what made us change was the amount we spent on diesel even with a 55mpg Merc when doing 15K a year -> immediately dropped our monthly expenses from £200 to £20 on motoring.

BTW the comparison on the VW website is rubbish it's quoting electricity at £0.30 a kwh. Octopus have allegedly over half a million EV charge customers all paying £0.075 or £0.09 a kwh depending on tarrif.

But the VW comparison is not rubbish, we are paying exactly 30 p a unit and the vast majority of the country are as well.

I am interested but walked away about 4 weeks ago, thought it might be better to plough the money plus a load more into a classic like an MGB. I was really close to buying a Leaf but I used a comparison site like the VW and it was just not worth it.

I think it is coming down to the cheap tariffs, I will look at that.

 

[Mzracer]

But the VW comparison is not rubbish, we are paying exactly 30 p a unit and the vast majority of the country are as well.

I am interested but walked away about 4 weeks ago, thought it might be better to plough the money plus a load more into a classic like an MGB. I was really close to buying a Leaf but I used a comparison site like the VW and it was just not worth it.

I think it is coming down to the cheap tariffs, I will look at that.

I would have to look at that standing charge, that would be close to £45 per quarter and the charging would have to be rigidly at night time.

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

But the VW comparison is not rubbish, we are paying exactly 30 p a unit and the vast majority of the country are as well.

I am interested but walked away about 4 weeks ago, thought it might be better to plough the money plus a load more into a classic like an MGB. I was really close to buying a Leaf but I used a comparison site like the VW and it was just not worth it.

I think it is coming down to the cheap tariffs, I will look at that.

It's not all about fuel cost per mile though.... You don't mention the loss in vehicle value in Pence per mile, which needs adding to the fuel costs per mile!
Please give the whole argument.

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[enark]

No,

see https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/ele...d-you-go-electric/running-cost-simulator.html

this would do the trick….

surprised that the fuel saving is only £300 per year though.

That said, it’s close to £60k for the base vehicle….add another 25 for fitting out means a whopping investment for £300 a year fuel saving…….with the then inconvenience of spending ages (compared to diesel) charging and sure the payload would be diddly when it’s half full of heavy batteries….?

think were a fair few years away yet, and by then hydrogen will have trumped electricity…..remember vehicle decisions are made in Detroit or Michigan for the US user, and they need big ranges, 120 miles won’t get them to the nearest drive through…..

 

[Mzracer]

It's not all about fuel cost per mile though.... You don't mention the loss in vehicle value in Pence per mile, which needs adding to the fuel costs per mile!
Please give the whole argument.

I have got nothing to lose in depreciation (vehicle value per mile) on the Golf, it has just about lost all the money that it can lose, the scrappy is collecting vehicles like this and paying £400 so that car has cost us £3350.00 in depreciation over 12 years, It has had less than a £1000 of out of the ordinary maintenance and I doubt it has been serviced more than 4 times at a max of £150 a time.

 

[starquake]

I would have to look at that standing charge, that would be close to £45 per quarter and the charging would have to be rigidly at night time.

On Octopus the intelligent standaing charge is usually identical to their flex rate (ie, the cap). Standing charge is such a small portion of your usage when you using 600+ kwh a month for the car!

Also a litttle known benefit is with the right car, or charger (a ohme or apparently "soon" on Zappis) you get the off-peak rate ANYTIME your car is charging as well as in the fixed daily hours. It's reasonably common we get the cheap rate for > 10 hours a day once a week on average, and my record has been ~16 hours in a day (remember it's offpeak 6 hours as standard, so there are only 18 hours of peak. (ie, it's been offpeak entire day except for 5-7pm to clarify in an edit.)

That alone offsets the standing charges in our case, as means at moment ~65% of our usage fits in the off-peak bracket, given we have a high baseload

We also (obviously) just tell dishwasher to start at 11:30 with the time delay button as that alone is a 20p a day saving (ours uses ~ 1 kwh per cycle). (Our dishwasher is so quiet it doesn't keep us from sleeping).

 

[starquake]

That said, it’s close to £60k for the base vehicle….add another 25 for fitting out means a whopping investment for £300 a year fuel saving…….with the then inconvenience of spending ages (compared to diesel) charging and sure the payload would be diddly when it’s half full of heavy batteries….?

think were a fair few years away yet, and by then hydrogen will have trumped electricity…..remember vehicle decisions are made in Detroit or Michigan for the US user, and they need big ranges, 120 miles won’t get them to the nearest drive through…..

Why on earth would anyone buy a VW EV. Least effecient by miles (South koreans and Teslas miles better) and agree £60k is nuts.

However, you can buy (we checked recently) on autotrader, a Niro EV 2020, with 4 years and 70,000 miles of remaning manufacturer warrenty for ~ £22K. (or could last week). 285 miles range, fully warrantied including the battery for the period. 70K miles costing ~ £10k ish in fuel as per pervious calulator, do you think it'll be worth less than £12k at end of warranty period in 4 years, I suspect not.

Honestly if you've been in London recently you will have noticed ALL the Ubers near enough are above car.

 

[enark]

Why on earth would anyone buy a VW EV. Least effecient by miles (South koreans and Teslas miles better) and agree £60k is nuts.

You could then say “why on earth would anyone buy a VW camper at all?” but they do in the many many thousands……cus they are iconic,

ps don’t think campervanning would be much fun in a Tesla……

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[starquake]

Electric cars have been chosen by the 'Bean Counters' purely because of the TAX benefits for Limited Companies.
I went to look at a Mini Electric a couple of years ago as a private buyer and the salesman told me I'd be financially crackers unless I could claim the Tax breaks.

I agree, example of a bad-EV in my books. 120 miles, slow to charge, costs more than the petrol. It's a style car, useless for most people. They'll be super cheap in a few years as they come off corp leases as no-one wants a 120 mi range car thats slow to charge.