Another technical question! (1 Viewer)

[Lbj]

I’ve written previously about a VW T5 Campervan that I put a deposit on then was told that it broke down between the garage and dealership after having the cam belt replaced. I was told by the salesman that the cambelt pulley had failed and advice from this forum was that this could have caused damage to various components in the engine so it did not look sensible to go ahead with the purchase.

I’ve now finally managed to speak to the garage to get more details. The battery warning light came on and engine stopped apparently about a mile into the three mile journey. No knocking from the engine.They put it on a loader and took it back to the garage where they found that a pulley had worn (apparently only evident when they inspected the underside of the pulley) and this affected the fuel timing putting it out between 5 and 8 degrees and stopping the engine. They say they replaced the timing pulley and cog.

I just wanted to double check people’s thoughts on possible damage caused by the worn belt before the engine stopped? The dealer has now offered me a two year RAC warranty and a years breakdown cover and they and the garage say it is working fine with no damage caused but I would like to know what opinion the members of the forum might have and if the general consensus is still to walk away!

They had replaced the cam belt using the full cam belt kit.

Thanks in advance, I really appreciate people taking the time to comment on this

 

[David and Sally]

Get an AA or RAC inspection?

 

[DBK]

My feeling is it is now sorted. However, I suspect there is probably fine print in the warranty which excludes anything caused before the warranty came into force, a "pre-existing condition" to use a medical term. Try and get something in writing from the dealer saying they will cover anything related to this issue which the warranty won't cover.

What happened isn't clear to me, the fuel timing issue sounds a bit odd.

 

[Phill D]

You need advice from someone stood over the engine able to make a few observations and checks with it running.
Also the devil’s in the detail of the warranty.

 

[Lbj]

Thanks for the comments and yes I will go through the warranty with a fine tooth comb!

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[haganap]

as said above.

RAC inspection seems a must or a very competent mechanic
Ignore the warranty, not normally worth the paper they are written on, but if you need it and get anything from it, it's a bonus.

 

[scotjimland]

I agree with above about an inspection.. and a worthless warranty ..

frankly, I'd just walk away .. because it would be a constant worry that something may go wrong and the warranty didn't cover it.. or worse, it breaks down hundreds of miles from home on holiday in Europe .. and a very costly recovery..and repair

 

[rod_vw]

If the battery light came on I would suspect that the alternator belt failed. That then probably tangled with the cam belt. No too unusual a failure but usually results in serious engine damage as the valve timing is thrown way out of adjustment.

I suggest that you get a very knowledgeable VW person to check the engine carefully.

 

[68c]

Sounds like an odd suggestion by the garage. Are you sure they are talking about the cam belt and not the alternator/accessory belt.

 

[nicholsong]

Walk away.

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[Happy Jim]

I’d run away! Unless you can research the engine type and confirm that it is “non-interference”. Most engines are interference type where the valves contact the pistons if the timing is out of whack, which is what happens when a cam belt snaps!

Jim

 

[jockaneezer]

Just a though, but if the fuel pump timing was put out by 5 to 8 degrees, then so was the valve timing ?
If it was my existing vehicle, I might hope the engine Gods were on my side and I've got away with it, but if it's a potential purchase, I'd walk away.

 

[Bessy765]

This is an interference engine if the fuel pump was that far out it will probably kissed the valves so they may not full seat whist it might run alright it may cause failure later on.

 

[rod_vw]

Lbj, I am hoping that you have taken all the above onboard and walked away from that vehicle.

As a VW enthusiast and ex T4, T5 & T6 owner plus a member of the VW T6 Forum I've heard of similar engine occurrences ending in a serious expense!

PS, you live in a beautiful part of the UK, we visit your area when ever we are able.

 

[Nanniemate]

Thanks for the comments and yes I will go through the warranty with a fine tooth comb!

Don't let your heart rule your head read likes you have decided to go ahead

Lbj, I am hoping that you have taken all the above onboard and walked away from that vehicle.

As a VW enthusiast and ex T4, T5 & T6 owner plus a member of the VW T6 Forum I've heard of similar engine occurrences ending in a serious expense!

PS, you live in a beautiful part of the UK, we visit your area when ever we are able.

Most of us would walk away . This is someone who know the vehicle type

Good luck with your decision it's not easy to find what you think is perfect

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[Derbyshire wanderer]

My take on any engine that has had a cam belt and kit fitted is that there is a need to build up the reliability confidence which takes time.
I have fitted many kits (several hundred in fact) and always start them with some anxiety even though I have hand wound them to the book to ensure everything is free, torqued as required and fully cleaned out the old oily fibres that develop over time.
I know each one was running perfectly fine before I get it and then I am changing a lot of parts that all need to work together to be reliable. It only takes one faulty bearing, threaded stud or false tightening a nut to have a disaster later on.
My take on it would be that if the job has been done properly ( read as do you believe the details given are that the work was done as described) and it has driven more than 20 miles without a problem, there should be no reason for a failure or damage.
Receipts for the work as a cam belt kit replacement (service schedule job) plus a decent warranty should give no reason for any rejection in the unlikely event of a failure.

 

[Lbj]

Ugh! Thank you so much for all the comments and advice. I was trying not to let the two year warranty sway me but I had doubts and it didn’t feel right and knew I would get level headed, sensible advice from experienced people.

It is also hard as I have a non refundable deposit of £2,000 so this was also on my mind. I have got some legal advice (suggested by another helpful forum member) and they didn’t offer much hope as they say it is a grey area but will pass the details on to a solicitor to consider if they would take the dealership to the small claims court. The dealer has said they will fight any claim. They then offered the two year warranty. I think I knew at this point I really should walk away but was still hoping it would be ok. They really wanted my van as they are a Sunlight dealer.

I just cannot believe this has happened to me for a second time. Well it is great character building experience and I’m trying to keep my sense of humour

Thank you all again, you have been the support I desperately needed with this!

 

[Nanniemate]

Ugh! Thank you so much for all the comments and advice. I was trying not to let the two year warranty sway me but I had doubts and it didn’t feel right and knew I would get level headed, sensible advice from experienced people.

It is also hard as I have a non refundable deposit of £2,000 so this was also on my mind. I have got some legal advice (suggested by another helpful forum member) and they didn’t offer much hope as they say it is a grey area but will pass the details on to a solicitor to consider if they would take the dealership to the small claims court. The dealer has said they will fight any claim. They then offered the two year warranty. I think I knew at this point I really should walk away but was still hoping it would be ok. They really wanted my van as they are a Sunlight dealer.

I just cannot believe this has happened to me for a second time. Well it is great character building experience and I’m trying to keep my sense of humour

Thank you all again, you have been the support I desperately needed with this!

Tell them you'll see them in court. They will back down they are using the fear factor how did you pay the deposit
on a card I hope

 

[headlight]

Lbj plenty of vans out there.
Walk away and buy one that you won't be constantly worrying about the engine.

 

[GeoffnDee]

Thanks for the comments and yes I will go through the warranty with a fine tooth comb!

Be sure to check the types of vehicles that are excluded from cover.

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[oldiesontour]

Having read this my problem would be had they done the job correctly in the first place they would have checked all components as they rebuilt the engine,IE all pulleys,tensioners, alternator bearings,aux belt.Therefore if they missed the belt/ pulley what else did they do wrong ? As for injector pump slipping highly unlikely the valves were totally untouched which may or may not have bent the stems (even slightly)which may have induced metal fatigue or a minor crack that could in the long term result in a dropped valve,If you can get your deposit back do so.If not you have 2 choices drive it with your fingers crossed risking at worst a scrap engine or have the head off and all valves microscopically checked,rebuilt as reqd,with new cambelt and all necessary bearings etc

 

[gus-lopez]

If you paid with a credit card then reclaim the 2k from them.If not then small claims court as with the info supplied I would doubt that they would throw out a claim such as yours due to the problem the garage has created by its own work

 

[tonyidle]

Having read this my problem would be had they done the job correctly in the first place they would have checked all components as they rebuilt the engine,IE all pulleys,tensioners, alternator bearings,aux belt.Therefore if they missed the belt/ pulley what else did they do wrong ? As for injector pump slipping highly unlikely the valves were totally untouched which may or may not have bent the stems (even slightly)which may have induced metal fatigue or a minor crack that could in the long term result in a dropped valve,If you can get your deposit back do so.If not you have 2 choices drive it with your fingers crossed risking at worst a scrap engine or have the head off and all valves microscopically checked,rebuilt as reqd,with new cambelt and all necessary bearings etc

Injector pump timing on its own cannot affect the valves. A check for damaged valves is best done by looking for witness marks on the pistons.

 

[oldiesontour]

Injector pump timing on its own cannot affect the valves. A check for damaged valves is best done by looking for witness marks on the pistons.

If the belt has jumped teeth on the diesel pump chance is it's done the same on the camshaft, minor marks on piston crowns indicate valves have touched but valves may or may not be damaged also whilst stripped may be worth re lapping valves , regardless of damage or not it won't be cheap to find out

 

[TheBig1]

That sort of failure happens to inexperienced mechanics and cowboys cutting corners to increase profit. My advice is write to the company requesting full refund of your deposit. If they refuse or ignore your request, then a letter before action. Give them 14 days to refund you and if not use the small claims track to recover your costs in full. You can submit your claim to the court online these days and it's cheap. It would be a very foolish company that tried to fight it out with the court. Reputational damage would cost them much more than simply paying up and moving on

I have used the small claims track a few times now and always successful. It is not a courtroom with a jury, solicitors and judge in robes and a wig. The judge will read the submissions of both parties and has on balance a duty to protect the private individual. The two parties and judge will meet in an office, if the company turns up. If the facts you have laid out here are entirely true, you have an extremely strong case and a high probability of winning. If you win, they have to pay up. If not you ask the court to enforce the decision. They have a few options that will be charged to the company, like sending in the bailiffs. As I mentioned, they would be foolish to fight it

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[Bessy765]

Ugh! Thank you so much for all the comments and advice. I was trying not to let the two year warranty sway me but I had doubts and it didn’t feel right and knew I would get level headed, sensible advice from experienced people.

It is also hard as I have a non refundable deposit of £2,000 so this was also on my mind. I have got some legal advice (suggested by another helpful forum member) and they didn’t offer much hope as they say it is a grey area but will pass the details on to a solicitor to consider if they would take the dealership to the small claims court. The dealer has said they will fight any claim. They then offered the two year warranty. I think I knew at this point I really should walk away but was still hoping it would be ok. They really wanted my van as they are a Sunlight dealer.

I just cannot believe this has happened to me for a second time. Well it is great character building experience and I’m trying to keep my sense of humour

Thank you all again, you have been the support I desperately needed with this!

Their non refundable deposit is only if they are suppling goods fit for purpose unless they will physically provide a written warranty that if this engine was to fail in any form within say the next 2 years their terms for retaining your deposit are null and void. By a written warranty directly that they will cover all expenses incurred and not some Mickey Mouse warranty firm that will cover you for everything except what you are claiming for.

 

[Lbj]

Thank you for the further input and advice. Stupidly I didn’t use a credit card to pay the deposit and I’m usually the one telling others to do this. It’s like hearing people being conned into having their driveways tarmaced by cowboy builders and thinking that would never happen to me.

The dealer is especially annoyed as he is out of pocket paying for changing the cambelt in the first place as I requested this as part of the deal (he insisted it wasn’t necessary as VW now say no time limit and 140,000 miles which VW confirmed) so I did wonder whether to offer to pay this just to see if he would settle and end the matter rather than taking it to the small claims court.

Really helpful to read about experiences and advice regarding the small claims court.

I had been trying to find a reputable garage to check the van over and spoke to a VW garage who had warned me it could take hours searching for a fault that may or may not be found which would be costly and still possibly not reassure me.

With the van breaking down so quickly after having the cam belt fitted raised concerns as some have said about the competency of the garage and speaking to them did not fill me with confidence either. Just too much of a risk for me.

 

[denisejoe]

2year RAC warranty not a lot of use probably only 10 mile limit to a garage for recovery any extra £100 for additional 5 miles well that was the package I had found out after breakdown in a car which had the warranty

 

[oldiesontour]

You could offer to pay initial cost of a cambelt replacement, but at what rate ? it wasn't done to any level of competence, so how much would anyone be prepared to pay for a potentially engine destroying cam belt replacement? How long would the que waiting for such a service be ?
It is possible that the dealer was of the opinion that the job did not need doing and therefore MAY have replaced only the belt and having it done by the lowest paid member of garage staff, or unlikely (?) but possibly done nothing.
If you want to offer an olive branch you could suggest actual cost of parts initially fitted + Actual wage paid to fitter.Also dealer will now advertise with new cambelt ...That will either add to price or at least reassure potential buyer therefore of some value to dealer.
Personally I would contact them by recorded delivery outlining case for refund (whilst considering claim for all incurred costs) Request a refund in full to your bank account (Inc details) within 7 days or I will be engaging the services of the small claims court.

 

[Lbj]

You could offer to pay initial cost of a cambelt replacement, but at what rate ? it wasn't done to any level of competence, so how much would anyone be prepared to pay for a potentially engine destroying cam belt replacement? How long would the que waiting for such a service be ?
It is possible that the dealer was of the opinion that the job did not need doing and therefore MAY have replaced only the belt and having it done by the lowest paid member of garage staff, or unlikely (?) but possibly done nothing.
If you want to offer an olive branch you could suggest actual cost of parts initially fitted + Actual wage paid to fitter.Also dealer will now advertise with new cambelt ...That will either add to price or at least reassure potential buyer therefore of some value to dealer.
Personally I would contact them by recorded delivery outlining case for refund (whilst considering claim for all incurred costs) Request a refund in full to your bank account (Inc details) within 7 days or I will be engaging the services of the small claims court.

That is a good point about the new cambelt helping a future sale, that hadn’t occurred to me

They said they were out of pocket £700 for changing the cambelt but not sure if he included the repair after it broke down in this figure