Advice on Lithium or just some different Lead Acid Batteries?

[NickandClair]

... we've found discrepancies between the on-board monitor, multi-meter and a little one that we stick in a ciggy socket, consequently we never really know which to trust so always err on the side of caution and go with the lowest figure, however it would be nice to have one that accurately reflects the remaining capacity of our battery bank ... what would you suggest without spending a fortune?

Also, with a Euro 6 (2017 or 2018 build) Fiat Ducato based PVC what benefit would having a B2B give that the existing split charging system doesn't? I've got another thread running about our power needs and looking at getting a genny, but obviously if there are other things that will help I'm willing to investigate further!

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/foru...erate-power-mechanically.189780/#post-3158464

I'll go and have a look at your thread @Minxy Girl , rather than go slightly off topic here.

Don’t listen to anyone that says running your Fiat on tickover won’t end in tears !
Even for short periods of time
We know from our own experience and several others it’s just not worth doing.

With regards to running your engine on short periods. I am sad to hear that you have had DPF/Re-Gen issues, but there are literally thousands of Welfare Vehicles, Ambulances and other service vehicles, whom have no issues in running vehicles on idle for short periods. You also have to bear in mind that in normal situations, you would be at an Aire/W-Camping site for say 2 days and then undertake a 2 hour drive down the road. Current split-charge systems on most British/Euro built vans are done with small diameter cable and a 30p relay soldered to your distribution unit which puts a lower ah capacity engine battery in parallel to your higher rated ah leisure batteries, meaning that if you were relying on the standard split charge system, it would take hours of engine running time to recover the batteries to full. Using a B2B/DC-DC chrager uses much thicker cable and harnesses the available power from the alternator and charges the leisure bank to it's correct AH capacity in a much shorter timeframe.

 

[two]

Interested in this as i thought this is something that would come in handy if staying somewhere where we don't have ehu. I am starting to think my 150w solar is not going to be enough when staying places longer. We spent 3 weeks abroad at Xmas with 10 of them in succession in the Algarve without ehu but it was sunny every single day so always had a full battery when the sun went down. This may not be the case when not sunny and i want to try and accommodate for as many options as i can without spending an absolute fortune. The lithium seemed to answer some of those questions although i am confused on how i should be managing them. I regularly keep an eye on the voltage but it will become more of a priority if we can get away more for longer as we will use more battery.

Your batteries are merely a temporary store, to tide you over between times of charging. If you don’t put it in, you’ll never get it out. Solar provides a steady trickle, the batteries catering for overnight and, possibly, a poor day. B2B will recharge them quickly and is really useful if you move frequently.
I think you can get away with idling for a while. It’s probably more important not to do so repeatedly. I think a good run between periods of idling is supposed to clean the filter (but check with Fiat first).

 

[Basildog]

I'll go and have a look at your thread @Minxy Girl , rather than go slightly off topic here.



With regards to running your engine on short periods. I am sad to hear that you have had DPF/Re-Gen issues, but there are literally thousands of Welfare Vehicles, Ambulances and other service vehicles, whom have no issues in running vehicles on idle for short periods. You also have to bear in mind that in normal situations, you would be at an Aire/W-Camping site for say 2 days and then undertake a 2 hour drive down the road. Current split-charge systems on most British/Euro built vans are done with small diameter cable and a 30p relay soldered to your distribution unit which puts a lower ah capacity engine battery in parallel to your higher rated ah leisure batteries, meaning that if you were relying on the standard split charge system, it would take hours of engine running time to recover the batteries to full. Using a B2B/DC-DC chrager uses much thicker cable and harnesses the available power from the alternator and charges the leisure bank to it's correct AH capacity in a much shorter timeframe.

It isn’t what a mechanic friend of mine says about ambulances or welfare vehicles.
Cost doesn’t come in to play with big organisations and also their vehicles are running hot in most situations unlike a Motorhome which would be left idling from cold !
I won’t ever be doing it again as I learnt my lesson along with several other friends with Fiat Motorhomes.

What other people decide to do is entirely up to them .

 

[NickandClair]

It isn’t what a mechanic friend of mine says about ambulances or welfare vehicles.
Cost doesn’t come in to play with big organisations and also their vehicles are running hot in most situations unlike a Motorhome which would be left idling from cold !
I won’t ever be doing it again as I learnt my lesson along with several other friends with Fiat Motorhomes.

What other people decide to do is entirely up to them .

WAS international whom manufacture most of the NHS Ambulances have an extremely low rate of DPF issues on their units, I know this as family work for the fleet control for Westcountry Ambulance Service. Bearing in mind that these vehicles do have downtime and run from cold many a time.
Fiat Professional Service Centre in Avonmouth again have more of an issue with vehicles re-mapped causing DPF fails than they do from general use, including welfare units.

On a motorcaravan application, a 30min burst between 2-3 days would not be a single cause of DPF fail, not when you are then driving for 2-3 hours the next day or so. It's a van being parked up, not being regularly used (say a dozen times in a year) and going out on the driveway just to run it for 15mins say every 2 weeks instead of giving it an 30min+ drive down the road that would be more of cause long term.
As for big firms not being concerned with operational costs, I can assure you that isn't the case with Westcountry Ambulances Service with a very tight NHS budget!!

 

[eddie]

Post #65.
I can only assume that it was because it was incompatible with the installed Lithium.

If anyone has a mains charger incompatible with Lithium batteries, they would be much better off NOT fitting Lithium batteries, we certainly wouldn't countenance installing Lithiums and disconnecting a mains charger. You need it!

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[eddie]

Your batteries are merely a temporary store, to tide you over between times of charging. If you don’t put it in, you’ll never get it out. Solar provides a steady trickle, the batteries catering for overnight and, possibly, a poor day. B2B will recharge them quickly and is really useful if you move frequently.
I think you can get away with idling for a while. It’s probably more important not to do so repeatedly. I think a good run between periods of idling is supposed to clean the filter (but check with Fiat first).

Which is why it should be done properly. Again I will quote from my personal setup. Victron multiplus inverter charger, which charges at 80 amps from mains or the built in generator, 160 amp (I said 200 amp previously but remembered I changed the camper and a slightly different spec) and three 450 watts of Solar via Victron MPPT regulators

My set up is certainly better for a overnight and possibly a poor day.

 

[Basildog]

WAS international whom manufacture most of the NHS Ambulances have an extremely low rate of DPF issues on their units, I know this as family work for the fleet control for Westcountry Ambulance Service. Bearing in mind that these vehicles do have downtime and run from cold many a time.
Fiat Professional Service Centre in Avonmouth again have more of an issue with vehicles re-mapped causing DPF fails than they do from general use, including welfare units.

On a motorcaravan application, a 30min burst between 2-3 days would not be a single cause of DPF fail, not when you are then driving for 2-3 hours the next day or so. It's a van being parked up, not being regularly used (say a dozen times in a year) and going out on the driveway just to run it for 15mins say every 2 weeks instead of giving it an 30min+ drive down the road that would be more of cause long term.
As for big firms not being concerned with operational costs, I can assure you that isn't the case with Westcountry Ambulances Service with a very tight NHS budget!!

Sorry but I will have to agree to disagree as it hasn’t been my experience and certainly doesn’t fit with the advice I have been given .
Whilst I agree that obviously an ambulance will be often started from cold it’s unlikely to be left standing idling from a cold start unlike Motorhome battery charging use .

 

[eddie]

We were recently offered a Local Authority contract to fit hand throttles of a range of Citroen commercial vehicles, where the hand throttle is used to determine the idle speed. We declined as it isn't the sort of work that we want to get involved with (Frankly we are always too busy)

The Citroen main dealer supplied and installed them in the end for Taunton Deane

 

[Basildog]

We were recently offered a Local Authority contract to fit hand throttles of a range of Citroen commercial vehicles, where the hand throttle is used to determine the idle speed. We declined as it isn't the sort of work that we want to get involved with (Frankly we are always too busy)

The Citroen main dealer supplied and installed them in the end for Taunton Deane

Now that might start to make some sense as the advice I have been given is only run a hot engine and keep the revs up to about 1600 rpm if you want to avoid problems.

 

[eddie]

I suspect that there are lots of things that we as motorhome owners do that are potentially bad for the motorhome. People that full time are using every component in a way that it was never designed to do. Equally, when you consider that virtually every motorhome on the market is built on a chassis that was originally designed be be used as a delivery van, Freda the Builder or Fred the Florist to use every day, stop - start - stop - start perhaps Saturdays and Sundays off if it is lucky

The chassis certainly weren't built with standing still for weeks on end regardless whether over Christmas and the New Year when it wasn't used after all as Aunty Flo has been ill so we have not been away since the Lincoln show in September or sat on a glorious beach site for four months in Benidorm

These things are just a handful of the things that we do that "could" shorten the life of our motorhomes or, could cost us more in maintenance or failure

I have a little 4 x 4 that Lyn and I bought brand new in 2007 to have an "A" Frame fitted to tow behind our camper from time, It is extremely low mileage as we never drive it anywhere, and we tow it very infrequently. Also having modified the braking system and fitted the Towing system I have "changed" it from how it was intended to be used, but I use it for the way "We intended" to use it and it suits our purpose, the same as infrequent users, people that buy a motorhome to live in, or people that run the engine to give them the power that they want from time to time

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[eddie]

Equally I would imagine that a hundreds of thousands of vehicles regularly idle getting their owners backwards and forwards to work lol

Trying to get into Taunton town centre is a 30 minute idle to creep about a mile

 

[hilldweller]

if we can get away more for longer as we will use more battery.

I fail to see the logic in that. One night, 100 nights, what is the difference ?

 

[Littlewheels]

The unit you have photographed is fine for mains hook up, but doesn't take care of the engine charging aspect which is why you will require DC-DC/B2B charging. This is advised in the paperwork you would have received with the batteries. It also says on the side of the batteries what is required for when the engine is charging the li Batteries.

Am I correct in that the Sterling BB1260 60amp will do the job?
To me it all seems quite complex and I simply want to ensure I get it right, I was going to fit these Lithium’s myself but what with the B2B I think I’d better seek out an Auto electrician once I’ve got everything together.

Thanks to all who gave advice.

 

[eddie]

Am I correct in that the Sterling BB1260 60amp will do the job?
To me it all seems quite complex and I simply want to ensure I get it right, I was going to fit these Lithium’s myself but what with the B2B I think I’d better seek out an Auto electrician once I’ve got everything together.

Thanks to all who gave advice.

Particularly well

 

[NickandClair]

Am I correct in that the Sterling BB1260 60amp will do the job?
To me it all seems quite complex and I simply want to ensure I get it right, I was going to fit these Lithium’s myself but what with the B2B I think I’d better seek out an Auto electrician once I’ve got everything together.

Thanks to all who gave advice.

The BB1260 will be fine, but you will need to isolate the current Split-Charge Circuit as previously mentioned in this thread. I would advise to seek a professional to install the B2B/Isolate the existing system unless you are confident to identify this circuit. Allow for someone that may have never done this 6 hours approx.

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[Minxy]

I'll go and have a look at your thread @Minxy Girl , rather than go slightly off topic here.

Thank you.

 

[zac]

I fail to see the logic in that. One night, 100 nights, what is the difference ?

Sorry it wasn't very clear, i am not sure that my 150w off solar will be enough if i start to spend longer in places not on ehu without the need for more solar panels, if using the b2b method of just starting the mh when needed will cause the mh issues later. Currently we have gone for approx 10 days without ehu but when no sun i was going to fall back on the b2b if needed but i wouldn't do that knowing it will cause issues as discussed on a previous post.

 

[Minxy]

Sorry it wasn't very clear, i am not sure that my 150w off solar will be enough if i start to spend longer in places not on ehu without the need for more solar panels, if using the b2b method of just starting the mh when needed will cause the mh issues later. Currently we have gone for approx 10 days without ehu but when no sun i was going to fall back on the b2b if needed but i wouldn't do that knowing it will cause issues as discussed on a previous post.

... hence why I'm looking at the possibility of getting a genny rather than adding more solar and/or batteries.

 

[hilldweller]

i am not sure that my 150w off solar will be enough

Currently we have gone for approx 10 days without ehu

You don't have a problem that lithium plays any part in, give or take a few % of charge here and there. Back to basics, got to put the energy back in, so more solar is the logical and quite cheap first step if you have space.

If you are fully charged at sunset and iffy in the morning, then you toss another battery into the equation, then see if the solar charges two in time.

If you are not fully charged at sunset ( given decent sun ) then toss another solar on top.

All solar people struggle in the bad weather, find some EHU to tide you over.

 

[NickandClair]

Sorry it wasn't very clear, i am not sure that my 150w off solar will be enough if i start to spend longer in places not on ehu without the need for more solar panels, if using the b2b method of just starting the mh when needed will cause the mh issues later. Currently we have gone for approx 10 days without ehu but when no sun i was going to fall back on the b2b if needed but i wouldn't do that knowing it will cause issues as discussed on a previous post.

All I can say @zac without this going around and around in circles, I can only repeat what was posted (#91, 94, 100, 101).
I also have to point out that DC-DC/B2B charging is now standard fit on all Hymer MLI/MLT's, where they are fitting the Voltronic unit (With a Lithium Setting), I then have to lead on to low RPM running engines used in the marine markets/Fridge engines on transport trailers and all the Euro 6 vehicles o our roads that are stuck in our towns and cities).
Regardless of the opinion of if it's right or wrong to leave an engine running on tick-over for long periods, this argument for some could go on and on (agree to disagree etc etc) therefore I can only leave you to make that decision by yourself.
The fact of the matter is that standard split-charge set-ups on UK/Euro MH's (Unless you're lucky to have a new MLT/MLI ) are without a doubt not fit for modern "Off-Grid/Wild Camping" use. They simply have a low transfer rate from engine to leisure whilst driving, Euro 6/Regen Issues and normally with an engine battery connected parallel to a leisure battery bank with the batteries rated higher than the engine! You can of course fit a larger split charge relay and cable, but again if your engine battery is rated 95ah and you've fitted 2x110ah batteries, the leisure batteries will only get to the rate of the engine battery, which still would not overcome Euro 6/Regen problems.
DC-DC/B2B charging works with DC powered intelligent charger, which converts and charges the leisure battery bank to it's required charge capacity in a very short time. Most current split-charge systems will be lucky to transfer 10-20 amps per hour (If you're lucky to have one not fitted on shoe string cabling), so for eg if your pair of batteries @ 110ah each (220ah total) that you have take down to say 50% SOC to make it easy ( I know most of you wouldn't do this, just using it as an example bearing in mind you may also have solar etc to add certain amounts of additional input) would take a drive of roughly 5.5/6 hours and that's IF your engine battery is rated the same AH as the leisure. Now take DC-DC/B2B charging, if the intelligent charger has the capability to charge 40-60amps and take the leisure batteries to their max capacity (as they are not connected parallel to the engine, but controlled and charged through the intelligent charger), the time would be significantly reduced to a drive of an est of 1.8 to 2.4 hours.
Now whilst some of the arguments roll around leaving the van running, I wouldn't want to sit there on idle for 1.8 to 2.4 hours either, BUT it comes back to some of you guys and gals using things like solar etc, meaning there are other contributions you could be making to reduce the amount of time taken to recover the batteries. I also will repeat how my wife uses the inverter. If she looks at the BMV and knows the AH's are a little low, she starts the engine engaging the B2B, then turns on the inverter and dries her hair then leaves the engine running for a further 20/25 mins just to add a bit of top-up for the battery bank (normally a 30 min run time max). We had 2x100W on the roof, via MMPT regulator to the battery bank with a 60A B2B. This set-up has done us for the last 7 years and will be the same for when the next van arrives. Most of the time Clair would only call on the B2B when solar just hasn't cut the mustard, but we did move every 2-3 days with a 3 hour drive between stops. Nearly every time we parked, the BMV read at 100% when we stopped. Again these are my personal experiences using our van, everyone is different of course, but there is no doubt that Lithium will be going on the van, no question!!!

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[two]

I think that most of those struggling with capacity may like to dwell in the same location (e.g. over-wintering) for long periods. I use mine for exploring, so don’t normally stop long enough to drain the batteries. Moving on every few days seems to keep the batteries in trim, so I don’t even bother with solar. I use more electricity in winter (lighting and heating) so need to move on more often and plan that into my trips where EHU is not available, or take a genny.

 

[Basildog]

I think that most of those struggling with capacity may like to dwell in the same location (e.g. over-wintering) for long periods. I use mine for exploring, so don’t normally stop long enough to drain the batteries. Moving on every few days seems to keep the batteries in trim, so I don’t even bother with solar. I use more electricity in winter (lighting and heating) so need to move on more often and plan that into my trips where EHU is not available, or take a genny.

We haven’t bothered with solar panels this time despite having had various vans with up to 525 watts of solar its next to useless when you need the power most .
As for lithium batteries I have read so much about batteries in my 15 years of Motorhome ownership I tend to ignore most of it .
Unfortunately most suppliers /manufacturers only have themselves to blame as they seem to be like snake oil salesmen and jump head first into the next latest thing .
They were all selling Elecsol batteries 10 years ago then it was Banner and now it’s Lithium.
I personally believe that lithium will become a mainstream leisure battery but we aren’t at that point yet .
I have seen some lithium batteries that have built in heating systems as they don’t like being charged in the cold ?
I will just sit back and watch for a few more years

 

[zac]

... hence why I'm looking at the possibility of getting a genny rather than adding more solar and/or batteries.

I do have a genny in my shed that i have never properly used only to start every couple of months. it was one of the ones Aldi had a couple of years back, i originally purchased it for the MH but never needed it as never ran out. But that is definitly an option and one that wont cost anything to me as i already have one that is not being used and virtually brand new. just storing the darn thing when travelling as would not want any fumes going from the back garage into the bedroom. I do have some zip heavy duty bags but not sure if that is ideal or not for both the Genny and the metal gerry can. Food for thought though as forgot all about that.

 

[NickandClair]

Unfortunately most suppliers only have themselves to blame as they seem to be like snake oil salesmen and jump head first into the next latest thing .
They were all selling Elecsol batteries 10 years ago then it was Banner and now it’s Lithium.

WOW if that wasn't a direct swipe, I don't know what is . Bit rude!
For the record our stance on the matter was like Banner, Elecsol we're being fitted as standard to most motorcaravans, therefore if you're adding a battery to an existing battery, it pays to fit the same!!!! Firstly with Elecsol was a supply/warranty problem, then they went pop. Then the manufacturers moved to Banner but again supply problems. We made the decision from then on to deal with a manufacturer that honoured their warranties and didn't have supply issues. Now anyone asking us to fit to existing batteries are told that if your not matching what is there, we can't help and all have to be the same. We do have LA's in stock, but are from a supplier that is reliable and has so far honoured the 2ry warranty they supply.
As for Li, it is here and the pricing structure has stabled. We took the time and effort in sourcing a unit that was minimal fuss, but maximum results based on the manufacturer's testing and ours!! The manufacturer also provides one the best back-up's we have experienced on other products they do and are a UK firm. Li is here and now, even the manufacturers are offering it up as an option and people are experiencing the results.

 

[two]

I do have a genny in my shed that i have never properly used only to start every couple of months. it was one of the ones Aldi had a couple of years back, i originally purchased it for the MH but never needed it as never ran out. But that is definitly an option and one that wont cost anything to me as i already have one that is not being used and virtually brand new. just storing the darn thing when travelling as would not want any fumes going from the back garage into the bedroom. I do have some zip heavy duty bags but not sure if that is ideal or not for both the Genny and the metal gerry can. Food for thought though as forgot all about that.

If you have a genny, you can be pretty sure you’ll need it one day…
But, rather like a brolly,
you can be just as certain that you’ll not have it with you when you do!

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[Basildog]

WOW if that wasn't a direct swipe, I don't know what is . Bit rude!
For the record our stance on the matter was like Banner, Elecsol we're being fitted as standard to most motorcaravans, therefore if you're adding a battery to an existing battery, it pays to fit the same!!!! Firstly with Elecsol was a supply/warranty problem, then they went pop. Then the manufacturers moved to Banner but again supply problems. We made the decision from then on to deal with a manufacturer that honoured their warranties and didn't have supply issues. Now anyone asking us to fit to existing batteries are told that if your not matching what is there, we can't help and all have to be the same. We do have LA's in stock, but are from a supplier that is reliable and has so far honoured the 2ry warranty they supply.
As for Li, it is here and the pricing structure has stabled. We took the time and effort in sourcing a unit that was minimal fuss, but maximum results based on the manufacturer's testing and ours!! The manufacturer also provides one the best back-up's we have experienced on other products they do and are a UK firm. Li is here and now, even the manufacturers are offering it up as an option and people are experiencing the results.

Sorry wasn’t meant to be a direct swipe at you but I have seen too many times claims being made about products from my days in business and especially now as a customer in the leisure industry .
I certainly wouldn’t be proud to follow the footsteps of many manufacturers that are now offering lithium batteries as an option.
My opinion of the whole industry from the lying press to the so called clubs and dealers/manufacturers alike is at rock bottom and I doubt that we will purchase another Motorhome.

 

[Littlewheels]

Luc

We haven’t bothered with solar panels this time despite having had various vans with up to 525 watts of solar its next to useless when you need the power most .
As for lithium batteries I have read so much about batteries in my 15 years of Motorhome ownership I tend to ignore most of it .
Unfortunately most suppliers /manufacturers only have themselves to blame as they seem to be like snake oil salesmen and jump head first into the next latest thing .
They were all selling Elecsol batteries 10 years ago then it was Banner and now it’s Lithium.
I personally believe that lithium will become a mainstream leisure battery but we aren’t at that point yet .
I have seen some lithium batteries that have built in heating systems as they don’t like being charged in the cold ?
I will just sit back and watch for a few more years

Luck You, a lot of us on here might not have a few more years to wait and see.

 

[zac]

If you have a genny, you can be pretty sure you’ll need it one day…
But, rather like a brolly,
you can be just as certain that you’ll not have it with you when you do!

So true lol, i haven't started it for a while so just went and started it. It started ok even in this cold weather. It's a 2000w version with 2 plugs inputs on it. Not a Honda or kiper but still seems to do the same and was a lot cheaper than those but i know the others have a very good reputation for lasting so can't argue with that. Says workzone titanium+ on the side but these things are darn loud even in my back garden. Would definitely cause a few raised eye brows if using it with the Motorhome i would expect.

 

[Basildog]

So true lol, i haven't started it for a while so just went and started it. It started ok even in this cold weather. It's a 2000w version with 2 plugs inputs on it. Not a Honda or kiper but still seems to do the same and was a lot cheaper than those but i know the others have a very good reputation for lasting so can't argue with that. Says workzone titanium+ on the side but these things are darn loud even in my back garden. Would definitely cause a few raised eye brows if using it with the Motorhome i would expect.

We’ve had the Honda eu2.0i and they cannot be described as quiet if used at anything above tickover.

 

[Ivory55]

We have a generator which is ok running most things quite quietly, but when the hair dyer goes on blimey it’s another thing. Haha

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