A Frames

[Snowbird]

That does make sense Bob. I know circumstances change over the years and although I miss the living space of the RV I now do more touring opposed to siting in one place for months. Have just bought a buggy which I hope to tow behind the camper,so as to make life easier for shopping and sightseeing were we cant even get the Euro camper. This will either be driven onto a purpose made rack on the back of the van or towed on a suspended bar with only the rear wheels in contact with the road. It wont have the reversing problems that Aframes have and even though its well under the 750kg braked trailer limit it will have a simple overrun brake fitted,just to keep Spanish plod off my back.

 

[Dodgey]

Bordering on off topic, Dave we may look at something like the Joyner down the line and my thought rather than risk issues with towing one on it's rear wheels just adapt a boat trailer, or have one made to suit. The Joyner weighs in at 400 kgs alledgedly so one of these small simple boat trailers should easy do it and be small enough to 'stuff' under the van when not in use and secure to the van's tow ball, and saves faffing about with brakes.

Just thoughts.....

 

[slobadoberbob]

I have an unbaked less than 750 kgs trailer

That does make sense Bob. I know circumstances change over the years and although I miss the living space of the RV I now do more touring opposed to siting in one place for months. Have just bought a buggy which I hope to tow behind the camper,so as to make life easier for shopping and sightseeing were we cant even get the Euro camper. This will either be driven onto a purpose made rack on the back of the van or towed on a suspended bar with only the rear wheels in contact with the road. It wont have the reversing problems that Aframes have and even though its well under the 750kg braked trailer limit it will have a simple overrun brake fitted,just to keep Spanish plod off my back.

I have sitting in my garage at the moment a less than 750 kgs purpose made scooter trailer.. made by Chris Elliott Adaptions of Peterborough... it takes my big class III scooter and Sue's smaller class II when taken apart.. these trailers have a drop down ramp and also a swivel frame on the towing neck.. this allows the scooters to be unloaded on to a pavement if the road is blocked behind the ramp.

If of interest p.m. me...... I have up graded the deck to Marine ply and added more rear lights.. it is 100 legal as a trailer (two wheel non braked type).. all new tyres at end of last season when stored .. I now use a full 4 wheel car trailer and carry my scooters in side the car (seats in back removed)...

Even if not interested I can bring you up to speed on the issues of the smaller trailers.. you are limited to 55 mph UK and 90 kgs in France and most of Europe.

Bob

 

[Snowbird]

Bordering on off topic, Dave we may look at something like the Joyner down the line and my thought rather than risk issues with towing one on it's rear wheels just adapt a boat trailer, or have one made to suit. The Joyner weighs in at 400 kgs alledgedly so one of these small simple boat trailers should easy do it and be small enough to 'stuff' under the van when not in use and secure to the van's tow ball, and saves faffing about with brakes.

Just thoughts.....

Have seen a German with a buggy crossways on a motorbike platform behind his camper. Because of the short length they will drive on East West and not much weight on the back.

 

[slobadoberbob]

The Chris Elliot trailers are about 6' long

The Chris Elliot trailers are about 6' long.. he has a web site.

Bob

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[Larrynwin]

That does make sense Bob. I know circumstances change over the years and although I miss the living space of the RV I now do more touring opposed to siting in one place for months. Have just bought a buggy which I hope to tow behind the camper,so as to make life easier for shopping and sightseeing were we cant even get the Euro camper. This will either be driven onto a purpose made rack on the back of the van or towed on a suspended bar with only the rear wheels in contact with the road. It wont have the reversing problems that Aframes have and even though its well under the 750kg braked trailer limit it will have a simple overrun brake fitted,just to keep Spanish plod off my back.

Hi, we also had a buggy 3 years ago, it was a Secma qpod . We initially towed it on our previous RV using the tow hitch which lifts the front wheels off the road. After having two failures of rear wheel bearings I built a purpose made unbraked trailer for it which being under 750kg all up was legal. When towing the buggy on its rear wheels it was in fact illegal as the buggys brakes were not being used.
We finally gave up and started towing a Peugeot 107 on a 2 wheel Brian James and in uUK a Car a tow a frame. If this is subsequently proven to be illegal here then I will use the trailer .

 

[TheBig1]

Not being funny, but the Joyner and other similar buggies have a petrol engine. Therefore road legal versions of these are motor vehicles by description. Towing of a motor vehicle which is not on a trailer behind another motor vehicle is prohibited by Spanish law. Regardless of whether you consider it a trailer when the front wheels are lifted on an attached bar, I doubt very much that the spanish police will agree with you. If its road legal and registered, its still a vehicle by legal definition and the law applies

I love the way that some people insist on pushing the boundarys of what is legal, and of course laws should be tested in court for them to be fully acknowledged. However some people seem to have more money than common sense when it comes to pushing their luck with the law. It is not the fault of the police officer enforcing the law when you get caught. So arguing with them, especially in a foreign language, is never going to get you anywhere. More likely in fact to get their backs up and have them check everything else they can just to pay you back with more fines and inconvenience. Challenging laws in court is a foolish and expensive hobby too, and no matter what you may think is right in your mind, if a law has been passed, it is not likely to be changed just because a foreign visitor doesnt like it.

 

[Snowbird]

As have said many times before.....The best thing to do with Spain is avoid it.

Its tooooooooo expensive now. Let em stew in there own patatas.

Wont be long before the whole country is bust anyway.

Its easy enough to catch a boat out to Morocco from Sete.

 

[pappajohn]

Has the horse been gassed

could have been 'cos its dead....like anyone who has been gassed. oh: not that i believe it happens anyway

 

[slobadoberbob]

so true

Not being funny, but the Joyner and other similar buggies have a petrol engine. Therefore road legal versions of these are motor vehicles by description. Towing of a motor vehicle which is not on a trailer behind another motor vehicle is prohibited by Spanish law. Regardless of whether you consider it a trailer when the front wheels are lifted on an attached bar, I doubt very much that the spanish police will agree with you. If its road legal and registered, its still a vehicle by legal definition and the law applies

I love the way that some people insist on pushing the boundarys of what is legal, and of course laws should be tested in court for them to be fully acknowledged. However some people seem to have more money than common sense when it comes to pushing their luck with the law. It is not the fault of the police officer enforcing the law when you get caught. So arguing with them, especially in a foreign language, is never going to get you anywhere. More likely in fact to get their backs up and have them check everything else they can just to pay you back with more fines and inconvenience. Challenging laws in court is a foolish and expensive hobby too, and no matter what you may think is right in your mind, if a law has been passed, it is not likely to be changed just because a foreign visitor doesnt like it.

so very true.

Bob:thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:

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[Billy23]

Just a thought – as I placed in another forum piece on this subject- do you REALLY need an “A” frame.

By the time you buy the A frame, buy the car, pay the extra ferry charge, pay the extra fuel (towing) insure the toad, tax it and worry about the legality of it and the possible fines, *would it not be better to just hire a car as and when you need it. Do you use the tow car THAT much, I guess some people do and if you are one of them then all the extra expense and worry is indeed worth it, but it’s not for me.

The last thought that I would throw into the discussion is this: If you had a serious enough accident in some foreign land are you sure that your insurance company would stand shoulder to shoulder with you.

I should mention that as I spend lots of time at my house in Spain, the hard bit would be to get to France towing a car.

 

[vwalan]

far better to have a 5er or a mini artic . doesnt take much working out . been doing it for 11yrs best bit of kit i ever had.

 

[Reallyretired]

Just a thought – as I placed in another forum piece on this subject- do you REALLY need an “A” frame.

By the time you buy the A frame, buy the car, pay the extra ferry charge, pay the extra fuel (towing) insure the toad, tax it and worry about the legality of it and the possible fines, *would it not be better to just hire a car as and when you need it. Do you use the tow car THAT much, I guess some people do and if you are one of them then all the extra expense and worry is indeed worth it, but it’s not for me.

The last thought that I would throw into the discussion is this: If you had a serious enough accident in some foreign land are you sure that your insurance company would stand shoulder to shoulder with you.

I should mention that as I spend lots of time at my house in Spain, the hard bit would be to get to France towing a car.

You can hire a small car from Avis in Spain for £400 a month

 

[Snowbird]

I can see some advantages with a 5er BUT there are a lot of disadvantages too.
Some being length, difficult to get on some sites, pay extra on ferries, poor traction, having to stop for someone to go to the loo, cant see whats falling about in the cart, need a big donkey to tow the cart, difficult getting the donkey onto supermarket car parks, the list is endless.
If it was me going down this route I would be looking at a largish 4X4 camper such as a Land Rover with a converted 4 wheel turntable trailer. I could park the trailer up on a campsite and clear off for a few days in the Landy.
Advantages of this is that its easier to maneuver ie draw bar on front for pushing and better traction.
The way I see it is why bother with a 5er, theres no difference than a car and caravan.

 

[vwalan]

cheaper on ferries . classed as a car and caravan. get the right set up .mine is 10mtr total .they allow 11mtr as a standard length . as for traction come on dave you know where i go. but as an artic mine actually puts 50%of the trailer weight on the pin.
mine fits nicely into super market car parks .seats 7 people and as for going to the loo whilst travelling thats dangerous any way. except for the capsite issue i can cancel all your doubts there dave . keep up the good work .but dont buy a landrover ,far better a 4x4 mitsubishi canter .the thought as crossed my mind a few times .but remember mine is an artic so lots of weight for traction. normal 5er you might have a point .plus i get more overlap. could be paving the way for the future. hee hee.
i remember having a hightop and eveery one thought i was crazy. fitted loads for others later. now its derigor.

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[darklord]

A small but distastefull side issue to all the talk of A frames is seldom talked about. Whether we all think they are legal, illegal, whether mechanically they are a good idea or not, is not really, I feel, the issue.
How do you think, others perceive motorhomers? Apart from the new age travellers with their 1950 crap bus conversions,......I would think that there is a hell of a lot of envy floating around. If you look at some of the prices of gear we buy, services offered to us, I think we are perceived as having a modicum of disposable income with few ties.

People in countries that have been, and are struggling, who are losing homes/jobs/futures, may well look with distain at someone coasting through their country with a motorhome worth more than their house, pulling a "hobby" car worth more than their main car.
I was pulled out of the MIDDLE of a convoy of landrovers for speeding near the Bosnian border, just because mine looked newer than the others, the fines started at e300 until I negotiated them down.

I,m not saying that their is envy amongst us, but peoplewho are strugglings perception, of those who appear to no longer be doing so, can form public opinion and statute.

It may be a case of Spain stopping A framers.........."Because we can".

 

[slobadoberbob]

an interesting take on the issue

A small but distastefull side issue to all the talk of A frames is seldom talked about. Whether we all think they are legal, illegal, whether mechanically they are a good idea or not, is not really, I feel, the issue.
How do you think, others perceive motorhomers? Apart from the new age travellers with their 1950 crap bus conversions,......I would think that there is a hell of a lot of envy floating around. If you look at some of the prices of gear we buy, services offered to us, I think we are perceived as having a modicum of disposable income with few ties.

People in countries that have been, and are struggling, who are losing homes/jobs/futures, may well look with distain at someone coasting through their country with a motorhome worth more than their house, pulling a "hobby" car worth more than their main car.
I was pulled out of the MIDDLE of a convoy of landrovers for speeding near the Bosnian border, just because mine looked newer than the others, the fines started at e300 until I negotiated them down.

I,m not saying that their is envy amongst us, but peoplewho are strugglings perception, of those who appear to no longer be doing so, can form public opinion and statute.

It may be a case of Spain stopping A framers.........."Because we can".

Now this is an interesting take on the issue.. a bit of thinking out side the box in my mind.

I read and hear as I have am many times Alan fight the concept of his rig .... but I was talking to Sue the other day in general about 5vers and I asked the question was is the difference between a traveller and a person that lives 365 in a 5ver? given that the argument Alan puts forward and others that say it is no more than a caravan and car... we did not come to an end conclusion. But there is some resemblance of an up market traveller which fits in with the post I am answering.. how are we seen by others?

I might add I did spend a fair amount of time on Calder's (alex) site this week looking at some of the overs he has and trying to work out if we could get one adapted to carry the disabled scooters.. they have one with a big bike rack.. size wise at 24' was just right.. so I am not again them, in fact who knows may join them later this year or next. BUT..........

It is always the BUT that grabs you by the you know whats... I have enough problems with a small RV at 23'9" plus the trailer that brings me up to about 45' when I go on holiday or shows.. would I be trading the same in for a similar rig in a 5ver? .. OK I get the towing unit to go about in when on site.. that appeals.

BUT and again what do people perceive of me when I arrive on a site? you can see there faces.. now what would they think seeing a massive 5ver turn up.... is it a traveller in a fancy rig... we see showmen with them, and I am sure I have seen the odd traveller with them as well.

One thing for sure I would only buy new as our use is a hobby and I do not want one that has been lived in 365 days a year.... same issue applies to RV's so many are now used as a home rather than a weekend toy. But yes what do people perceive of us with some of our outfits.

Given some these days have cost more than the average 3 bedded home people must think we are rich ... that is not the message I want to send out in the UK or Europe... worth thinking about.

Bob

 

[Snowbird]

IMO Spain has fed off the backs of the rest of Europe for long enough.
More than happy to encourage tourism and the tourist from Northern Europe and take there hard earned cash.
They then went into a building frenzy to tempt these Northern Europeans to live there and spend there pensions there.
Now its all going belly up they want to screw the tourist again.
The country is on its @rse were in my opinion anyone that is stupid enough to bite the hand that feeds it belongs.

Rant over for now.

 

[vwalan]

bob .its something to think about ,but beware if you create a garage compartment it becomes a living van .living vans over 3,500kg require mot.
there are gains like if the living van is under 3,500kg gvw and the unit is over 3,500kg and is an artic outfit both can be mot exempt.
by having an artic the over lap is greater and gives a shorter overall length . my truck as had a few feet cut off the back so it now just about fits in a car space. together the unit and trailer fit nicely in two inline spaces.
if any one requires more info please pm for a tel number . its not really difficult but explaining jumps about a bit.
the rules change according to weights . iveco daily ,mitzy or isuzu possibly merc sprinter or vw lt are the way. forget euro or yank pickups . to big or not enough power.
its all schools of thought. but there is room in mine for disabilty scooter but i carry a dax monkey bike . loading could be very low to the ground with the right trailer.

 

[Billy23]

Oh hang on Snowbird lets keep this within reason. We are talking about the law of some countries and just because we think that they dont suit us- or let us done what we really really want to do- then they are in some way deserving of all they get. We are talking about towing a car for goodness sake.

I spend lots of time in Spain (I am at my house now) and the people of Spain that I have met are just like any place in the world they dont deserve any more or less that the people that live in the UK, you know the place that you cannot go out of a night alone, that place where the drunks fall all over the place on a Friday/Saturday night ( I have never seen a drunk in 10 years in Spain)...sorry off topic!!!

Have to say it seems that your "Rant" is from somebody that has not lived in the country.....It really isnt soooo bad here in the Sun

Rant over, Ill have a beer now

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[Snowbird]

Oh hang on Snowbird lets keep this within reason. We are talking about the law of some countries and just because we think that they dont suit us- or let us done what we really really want to do- then they are in some way deserving of all they get. We are talking about towing a car for goodness sake.

I spend lots of time in Spain (I am at my house now) and the people of Spain that I have met are just like any place in the world they dont deserve any more or less that the people that live in the UK, you know the place that you cannot go out of a night alone, that place where the drunks fall all over the place on a Friday/Saturday night ( I have never seen a drunk in 10 years in Spain)...sorry off topic!!!

Have to say it seems that your "Rant" is from somebody that has not lived in the country.....It really isnt soooo bad here in the Sun

Rant over, Ill have a beer now

Sorry if I offended you Billy as I don't know how long you have lived in Spain.
What I do know is that in the last 12 years I have spent 5 of them in Spain overwintering for 6 months each year. Have seen many friends that have had to close the door and walk away as they cant afford to live there anymore.
Have watched campsite prices double in 3 years. Have watched the Spanish build roundabouts with EU money were they are not needed, not to mention the dual carriageways that you can drive on for hours and not see another vehicle. Have friends that have been victims of the land grab. The list goes on but what the hell,the Spaniard that was happy with his donkey 10 years ago who now owns a black BMW with no income to buy petrol for it still needs the petrol as his donkey is now in the knackers yard.
Have worked and lived in Spain on and off for 40 years and one things for sure there are 2 things in life you will never see.....One is a dying donkey and the other is a satisfied Spaniard.

 

[Billy23]

Nah you didnt upset me, I just tried to put the other side. If I see you on the road (Spanish Rimor) I will have a beer with you

I have owned property in Spain (near Sevilla) for about 11 years and have - as you say- seen roads going no place and you are right it was done with EU money but one could say, who is to blame for that, some bloke in a department in the EU just let them ave the money, bit like the British banks really- and look what happened to them :Sad:

Your friends that have had to go back to the UK are like the people that are my friends, they made the wrong decision to come to Spain, they came when the £ was 1.40 and could just about manage and now it is 1.10 (or whatever) they are stuffed. To be fair I think they would have struggled in the UK with the amount of money they had to retire on.
Campsite fees: They may have doubled in the last 3 years......but what hasnt in any country?

But what the hell, I lived in the UK and complained and I do it here in Spain and will do it to till the day I die

Snowbird if your ever on the A49 from Seville to Huelva junction 53 let me know and have a beer.:thumb:

 

[slobadoberbob]

it is good when we can agree to disagree

It is good when we can agree to disagree.. often the issue on trailers or toads and in this case living in Spain and how it has effected various people.

Good to see it ended on good terms

Bob

 

[pappajohn]

You can hire a small car from Avis in Spain for £400 a month

you can BUY a small car in the UK for £400