"A" Frames again... Dont shoot the messenger...

[pappajohn]

TYPE APPROVAL EC/94/20: The regulations DO NOT APPLY to:-
Commercial Vehicles, Motorhomes, Cars not (e) marked, Special Imports (SVA), Front Towbars, and All Vehicles registered before 1st. August 1998


Towtal web site states
Does EC Type approval apply to motorhomes?
Currently, EC Type approval is not in force on motorhome or RV towbars. However, we work to all EC 94/20 standards and our towbars leave the workshop with a weight stamp

Link Removed

 

[Pete45]

The same thread is on RVOC and some very interesting answer on there, worth a peep.

 

[jhorsf]

That would be the forum where old mo was calling members of FUN moron's

 

[haganap]

I think all A frame posts should be grouped together with a link to them from the front page.

Whenever an A frame post comes on, some will argue one way and others the other. No one ever accepts the case of the others and neither do they change there point of view. Some will tow one, some wont, you pays your money (or car hire money or fine) and you takes your chances.

Im sure Im not a moron, and Im sure old Mo never meant it in the context that I just read on the RVOC, I know he's better than that. :thumb:

But, A frame posts/debates/arguments are starting to really turn me off. If you wanna do it then do it, if you dont then don't.

 

[Gromett]

I did consider an A Frame back when I had the Bus. However due to the lack of clarity on the issue I decided to not bother. Now I just ignore the A frame threads

Ooops. Did I just make an A frame post? oh::shout:

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[Pete45]

That would be the forum where old mo was calling members of FUN moron's

I am sure that Mo did not mean all that answered were moron's oh:.
When I said look at the other site maybe I should have said
The answer's from Geo and Pappajohn are worth a look at.

 

[johnp10]

I think all A frame posts should be grouped together with a link to them from the front page.

Whenever an A frame post comes on, some will argue one way and others the other. No one ever accepts the case of the others and neither do they change there point of view. Some will tow one, some wont, you pays your money (or car hire money or fine) and you takes your chances.

Im sure Im not a moron, and Im sure old Mo never meant it in the context that I just read on the RVOC, I know he's better than that. :thumb:

But, [HI]A frame posts/debates/arguments are starting to really turn me off. If you wanna do it then do it, if you dont then don't.[/HI]

Absolutely.

No matter what the the legalities (or illegalities in this case), folk on here will only believe that what they do or want to do is the only legal way forward.
Good solid advice on most things is generally wasted on here.

The driving licence does not state / show a braked trailer, nor does it allow specifically the towing of a toad....just a trailer with in general terms towed by a particular vehicle and within a given weight limit.
To use the current licence argument, you would be able to tow a box fixed to a skateboard and call it legal????

We need a gassing thread to open up a real issue.
This one is getting boring.

 

[Jim]

We've all seen enough A frame threads, and they do go over (and over) the same old ground, oh: but every now and again, rather than the same tired opinions, (like mine) new stuff enters the debate. We were all interested to read the new stuff when people started to get stopped in numbers last year. Mo has given us some new information in this thread worthy of discussing. (I think he just got a bit upset when he was accused of fishing/trolling)

The thread title is plain, its about A frames, you don't have to click on the thread if you don't want to.

Our motorhome is less than 6m and this trip especially we have found we just don't need to tow a tiny little car, we just take off in the van. Luxury:thumb:

 

[Chris]

I thought Old Mo's thread was helpful.

If you just take the fine rather than argue with the local cops then it becomes easy for them.

It has to be worth a try if you want to use an A frame in Spain.

 

[Terry]

We've all seen enough A frame threads, and they do go over (and over) the same old ground, oh: but every now and again, rather than the same tired opinions, (like mine) new stuff enters the debate. We were all interested to read the new stuff when people started to get stopped in numbers last year. Mo has given us some new information in this thread worthy of discussing. (I think he just got a bit upset when he was accused of fishing/trolling)

The thread title is plain, its about A frames, you don't have to click on the thread if you don't want to.

Our motorhome is less than 6m and this trip especially we have found we just don't need to tow a tiny little car, we just take off in the van. Luxury:thumb:

I see you are never too old to learn
terry

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[old-mo]

Appologies if my wording on the RVOC site upset some, was not my intention...

Yes I was annoyed that I was being accused of "Fishing".. "Trolling".."Wind Up" etc by some.. I thought it was an interesting conversation I had with the old guy and thought it worthy of bringing to members attention....

All I was trying to do was inform members of a different slant on the issue..

And wished to pass on what I was told by the old guy parked near the Toilet/Shower block near the funsters pitches here at Marjal.. Anybody near by would do well to go and have a chat with him.. (He has a tripple slide 29-30ft Chateu)..

His Issue with the Driving License and "Geo`s" informative posting on RVOC... to my mind say`s "Braked Toads" are "Legal"...

And to be honest I dont see why, as we are all in the EU, they should be outlawed in "Spain"...

The whole issue does not effect me... I use a trailer all the time, (Because it suit`s me)..

I know "A" Frames have been done to death on here and RVOC... And just thought it would have been of interest to some..

 

[eddie]

I liken threads like this to working at a show!

For example at Excel, charming couple on our stand wanted to buy a KVH dome. We chatted about their requirements, sat them down, made them a drink and gave them biscuits.

They wanted to get BBC1 in Spain, a long way down in Spain and we pointed out that that simply wasn't going to happen.

We showed them pictures of footprints supplied by Astra (the company that should know, as they own the satellite) we gave them, information produced by the manufacturers about where they state their product would work. We also showed the couple a Google Earth map with push pins stating exactly what channels and satellites would work where.

The couple thanked us profusely and told us that they had decided to buy the dome of the "other company" as theirs "works in Spain"oh:oh:

IE they were choosing to believe what they wanted to, and ignore facts and common sense.

I do this with the weather forecast! If we have an important weekend away planned and the weather looks crap, I find myself consulting other weather forecast sites. I will keep going until I find one that seems the most "clement" weather and then believe and quote that site to all involved

We all know, deep down in our heart of hearts that towing a car and pretending that it is a trailer, is illegal. Ultimately when someone is forced to make a decision they will err on the side of caution and state that a car is not a trailer legally and that will be that.

All this nonsense about being legal here etc! Dutch people would still be arrested for smoking dope in a cafe in London, French people will be done for speeding on our motorways, and Spanish people would be arrested if, in a Public place, they stuck spears into the necks of bulls until the bulls bled to death!

So Fred and Betty arguing that their Mini is really a trailer and it is legal in the UK (still not really conclusive) so they have political immunity doesn't really wash.

We all know that the only people that can come into Europe and flout our laws with impunity are muslims

I tow a car, I never thought that I would. My wife bought dogs! No longer could we cycle every where so I bought a Terios.

I had a Car A Tow frame fitted and we take the car from time to time. I put trailer triangles on it, I put a sign stating "This Vehicle is IN TOW" and I always ensure that the thing is "driveable" (I actually have a steel cable that I can hook onto the from of the "A" frame and simply lift it up so I can drive the car without taking the frame off)

My personal take on it is make the most of it while we can, as it is grey now and will no doubt be made very black and white soon.

No one cares, the market is too small, the tourism lost by Spain amounts to a tiny number of people not going as they can't take their motorhome and "A" framed tow car is insignificant.

Frankly I am not sure that Spain see's us a little more than gypsies anyway, as there is little provision made for motorhomes in Spain and when you see miles of white motorhomes parked along the seafronts in some resorts you can see why the Spanish authorities prefer package toured tourists to spend money in their shops, bars and restaurants.

I am going to the Ardeche area this year. I will be towing the Terios and am looking forward to exploring the region on foot, by kyack and by jumping in the car and exploring all those areas that I couldn't otherwise get to easily!

Long live the "A" frame, but I fear the "A" frame is dead

Eddie

 

[Geo]

Whilst I agree with 95% of your post and it seems you have a reasonable insight
and may be correct re the demise of A frames eventually, whether any action will be retrospective is another matter, so far in the UK nothing has been

Why do you think we are at present pretending A frames are trailers, when the D for T clearly says they are, and in their opinion are legal,
What do you know that they don't
I have no desire to change or break Spanish law,
As far as im aware in the Uk if the law hasn't been written to say you can't---You can!!! and Spain sign up to the Geneva agreement allowing legal vehicles in the UK to use Spanish roads
Much like we did allowing Spanish lorries with no UK MoT or tax to use ours.
The A frame argument will live on until the UK says they are illegal
Geo

 

[eddie]

Why do you think we are at present pretending A frames are trailers,

Because when I look at my car it is a car, not a trailer a car! Never when I have said chuck the garden waste in the "trailer" has anyone mistakenly loaded it into my car. Conversely when I say I will "give you a lift into town" has anyone every sat in my trailer!

when the D for T clearly says they are, and in their opinion are legal,

In their opinion! That isn't law! They also say that I need a different licence to drive my RV, but then tell me that I need a class four "car" MOT for it and wont let me take my HGV test in my RV!

What do you know that they don't

That it is a CAR not a trailer

I have no desire to change or break Spanish law

So you won't be taking your "A" framed car to Spain then?

Look to all intents and purposes we are signing from the same hymn sheet. I have always said that it is better to apologise than to ask permission.

All I am saying is that I am sure, deep down, anyone towing a car, that has road tax as a car, is registered and has a vehicle registration number as a car is insured as a car knows that it isn't actually a trailer and it is a car.

That is a different argument as I cannot see why that should matter as there is no problem towing it.

But I would bet that if we continue making a fuss about it and press for a resolution that the resolution will be a ban!

Eddie

 

[vwalan]

in total agreement with geo on this one .the information is out there . the fines in spain have been returned . what more evidence does anyone need.
forget racial issues etc thats got nothing to do with it.
the rac and aa have used them for years . as recovery tools .
but if the correct braking system is used then you are ok .
as we dont tax and mot trailers ,you could pull one with out both .
as it is i dont use one for liesure .only recovery . as i have said mine is unbraked and only for recovery work. i certainly wouldnt want to use mine as a toad . but find driven with care havent in 30yrs had an issue using it. be impossible on new cars as it rests on the bumper and as big pads ,chains going underneath .
but i find the aframe argument /discusions very interesting .
having had discusions with vosa about it they say ,do we stop you ? no is the answer . if it was illegal here then i,m sure all would be pulled and courts full of offenders .
best get a 5er dont need a toad .hee hee.

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[beachcaster]

I dont find the A frame discussion a bit boring.........not at all.

What I find interesting is the fact that most people argue the .is it legal /illegal........when I think a better route to discuss is could the A frame be a better system for towing small cars and seeing the bigger picture.

4 wheels on the gound one at each corner.........a safe track record. More sophisticated braking potential....ease of use........cheap ...light.
easy to store. Far less hassle.

There would have been a time when driving a car requred a man in front of you walking and waving a red flag. Things move on. Things progress...and laws should exist to help progress not hinder it .

Which clearly has nothing to do with where we are today or Spanish police. However A frames are a great idea ......and it shouldnt be beyond the ingenuity of man to make them work functionally and legally.

barry

 

[slobadoberbob]

I do remove the towing part

Those in the know remove them before the test
My signature is only reqd on tests I carry out
I dont care what the rest of the world is doing, just because the majority do something wrong dont make it right do it
Test criteria is quite specific Ive not seen a Reece yet that will pass without modification
And if you modify it ,that automatically cancels any type approval, check it out dont take may word for it
So chances are, you are towing illegally and can't t put it right without being illegal in another wayoh:
Cant have it both ways

I do remove the ball and the part it is connected to.. No way can I remove the frame work.

But then I also take off the dash any obstructions and the towing sign on the screen.



Bob

 

[lorger]

I Have been told by a friends uncles friend that while one of his friends was sleeping he got gassed and someone stole his A frame, so be careful out there if the Police dont get you the gassers will

 

[slobadoberbob]

Unlike the morons on Motorhome fun that thought I was on a wind up....

Appologies if my wording on the RVOC site upset some, was not my intention...

Yes I was annoyed that I was being accused of "Fishing".. "Trolling".."Wind Up" etc by some.. I thought it was an interesting conversation I had with the old guy and thought it worthy of bringing to members attention....

All I was trying to do was inform members of a different slant on the issue..

And wished to pass on what I was told by the old guy parked near the Toilet/Shower block near the funsters pitches here at Marjal.. Anybody near by would do well to go and have a chat with him.. (He has a tripple slide 29-30ft Chateu)..

His Issue with the Driving License and "Geo`s" informative posting on RVOC... to my mind say`s "Braked Toads" are "Legal"...

And to be honest I dont see why, as we are all in the EU, they should be outlawed in "Spain"...

The whole issue does not effect me... I use a trailer all the time, (Because it suit`s me)..

I know "A" Frames have been done to death on here and RVOC... And just thought it would have been of interest to some..

As I was the one that thought it was a wind up... then I take it was aimed at me MO?

Unlike the morons on Motorhome fun that thought I was on a wind up.... Nice to know what some people think of you.


One of the reasons I post not so often these days on RVOC is because of the attitude of some members. On the whole it does not seem to happen on MHF - thankfully.

I did apologies on this site if my words offended. I also took the trouble to send Mo a p.m. which he ignored. All I would say is if you post an opinion of report something on the site then you need to expect others to respond about it. But I do not think this kind of insult is needed. I do not go around saying that XY or Z is a moron or imply that those that post on a subject on MHF are 'morons' .. healthy debate is fine .... I got very upset last year when a picture was put on of a large man tipping a boat up and a remark made about me. That was from two people on RVOC following a post by Mo.. so I have to treat his posts with some suspicion as to if he is being serious or not.

I have note Mo's comments above in his response when he says it was not meant in that way. But I did read the post, chose not to respond on RVOC, not a lot of point as you get the usual suspects belittling the replies if it does not fit in with there ideas. But it seems to be fair game on RVOC to see how far they can go in there attitudes towards other members.

It is a shame we seem to see it now on here (MHF).. I regret if some feel that we are morons because we question the validity or the statements as not facts .

It seems you have to be careful what posts you reply to otherwise you get the type of comment we see in this case.

I am disappointed that I will say.

I will not post on the subject again and keep my counsel and legal knowledge to my self .. time will resolve the issue.

Bob

 

[Billy23]

As I was the one that thought it was a wind up... then I take it was aimed at me MO?


I will not post on the subject again and keep my counsel and legal knowledge to my self .. time will resolve the issue.

Bob

Bob
I have only been a member for a short time and value your posts on many subjects. So I will just say.....Don't let them get at you or shut you up!!!!

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[slobadoberbob]

thank you for your support

Bob
I have only been a member for a short time and value your posts on many subjects. So I will just say.....Don't let them get at you or shut you up!!!!

Thank you for your support it is appreciated I can assure you.

Bob:thumb:

 

[Chris]

Mountains and mole hills spring to mind

 

[Larrynwin]

Because when I look at my car it is a car, not a trailer a car! Never when I have said chuck the garden waste in the "trailer" has anyone mistakenly loaded it into my car. Conversely when I say I will "give you a lift into town" has anyone every sat in my trailer!

In their opinion! That isn't law! They also say that I need a different licence to drive my RV, but then tell me that I need a class four "car" MOT for it and wont let me take my HGV test in my RV!


That it is a CAR not a trailer

So you won't be taking your "A" framed car to Spain then?

Look to all intents and purposes we are signing from the same hymn sheet. I have always said that it is better to apologise than to ask permission.

All I am saying is that I am sure, deep down, anyone towing a car, that has road tax as a car, is registered and has a vehicle registration number as a car is insured as a car knows that it isn't actually a trailer and it is a car.

That is a different argument as I cannot see why that should matter as there is no problem towing it.

But I would bet that if we continue making a fuss about it and press for a resolution that the resolution will be a ban!

Eddie

Do not see why they should be banned, only in their present form. Remove the overrun braking and use a "brake buddy" or similar to bring them in line with current legislation.
I drive a car :thumb: I tow a trailer :thumb:

 

[old-mo]

Bob.............. You seem to have taken my remarks as a personell dig at you... I can assure you they were not....

I did receive a PM from you but didn`t think it needed a reply,, Which I appologies for if this has also upset you..

My remarks on the sister site RVOC, on relection were uncalled for..

For which I did an open "Appology" for on the "Funsters" site...

A few hit the like and Thanks button, which I presume meant they had accepted my appology..

I am certainly not going to get into a personel slanging match with you or any body else..

Yes I was annoyed/Upset with some of the remarks that were laid at my feet.. when all I intended was to pass on (What I Thought) was a useful bit of information..

If it were possible I would like Jim to remove the first posting..

Once again I am "SORRY" if I have upset any one.

As far as I am concerned this and the original thread is "DEAD", and I will not be drawn into a row or arguement that throws a bad light on a superb (As with the RVOC) Club and Website..

Thankyou.

 

[slobadoberbob]

matter dead and ripped now

Bob.............. You seem to have taken my remarks as a personell dig at you... I can assure you they were not....

I did receive a PM from you but didn`t think it needed a reply,, Which I appologies for if this has also upset you..

My remarks on the sister site RVOC, on relection were uncalled for..

For which I did an open "Appology" for on the "Funsters" site...

A few hit the like and Thanks button, which I presume meant they had accepted my appology..

I am certainly not going to get into a personel slanging match with you or any body else..

Yes I was annoyed/Upset with some of the remarks that were laid at my feet.. when all I intended was to pass on (What I Thought) was a useful bit of information..

If it were possible I would like Jim to remove the first posting..

Once again I am "SORRY" if I have upset any one.

As far as I am concerned this and the original thread is "DEAD", and I will not be drawn into a row or arguement that throws a bad light on a superb (As with the RVOC) Club and Website..

Thankyou.

Matter as far as I am concerned is dead and dropped.. I know deep down you did not mean to cause offence so lets just leave it as it is.

Bob

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[Jim]

I don't read every post on the RVOC but the picture you are painting of the forum is totally wrong. The forum is a friendlier place as you could wish for. Nowhere can I see offensive posts. Either you are seeing stuff that I have missed or my skin is a little thicker and I'm not registering it.

Please go there now and click the report button on any posts that belittle you. That way the post link comes straight to my email and I can look at it directly.. If these posts exist, I am extremely interested in seeing them. Thanks

As I was the one that thought it was a wind up... then I take it was aimed at me MO?

Unlike the morons on Motorhome fun that thought I was on a wind up.... Nice to know what some people think of you.


One of the reasons I post not so often these days on RVOC is because of the attitude of some members. On the whole it does not seem to happen on MHF - thankfully.

I did apologies on this site if my words offended. I also took the trouble to send Mo a p.m. which he ignored. All I would say is if you post an opinion of report something on the site then you need to expect others to respond about it. But I do not think this kind of insult is needed. I do not go around saying that XY or Z is a moron or imply that those that post on a subject on MHF are 'morons' .. healthy debate is fine .... I got very upset last year when a picture was put on of a large man tipping a boat up and a remark made about me. That was from two people on RVOC following a post by Mo.. so I have to treat his posts with some suspicion as to if he is being serious or not.

I have note Mo's comments above in his response when he says it was not meant in that way. But I did read the post, chose not to respond on RVOC, not a lot of point as you get the usual suspects belittling the replies if it does not fit in with there ideas. But it seems to be fair game on RVOC to see how far they can go in there attitudes towards other members.

It is a shame we seem to see it now on here (MHF).. I regret if some feel that we are morons because we question the validity or the statements as not facts .

It seems you have to be careful what posts you reply to otherwise you get the type of comment we see in this case.

I am disappointed that I will say.

I will not post on the subject again and keep my counsel and legal knowledge to my self .. time will resolve the issue.

Bob

 

[slobadoberbob]

as requested sent you the post

I don't read every post on the RVOC but the picture you are painting of the forum is totally wrong. The forum is a friendlier place as you could wish for. Nowhere can I see offensive posts. Either you are seeing stuff that I have missed or my skin is a little thicker and I'm not registering it.

Please go there now and click the report button on any posts that belittle you. That way the post link comes straight to my email and I can look at it directly.. If these posts exist, I am extremely interested in seeing them. Thanks

While I consider the matter dead, and have resolved the issue from Mo's post.. as you say you cannot see the offence caused ..... I have sent the post to you Jim.. in the report part you say 'rude' or offensive.. well I do not like being called a Moron because I post on MHF.. not speaking for others, perhaps they do not mind being called a Moron, but I do not like it.


But as said the post was dead as far as I am concerned.. you just woke it up.. but have had my say. I accept Mo did not mean it... but I do not call people idiots or 'Morons' plus I do not put I likes on a post to make the matter worse, like some do and do it on a regular basis to see if they can score a point... very childish. But then some are as we know.

Bob

 

[Jim]

While I consider the matter dead, and have resolved the issue from Mo's post.. as you say you cannot see the offence caused ..... I have sent the post to you Jim.. in the report part you say 'rude' or offensive.. well I do not like being called a Moron because I post on MHF.. not speaking for others, perhaps they do not mind being called a Moron, but I do not like it.


But as said the post was dead as far as I am concerned.. you just woke it up.. but have had my say. I accept Mo did not mean it... but I do not call people idiots or 'Morons' plus I do not put I likes on a post to make the matter worse, like some do and do it on a regular basis to see if they can score a point... very childish. But then some are as we know.

Bob

Bob, I'm not talking about this thread, as you say, that has been sorted. I'm talking about the posts that you say are made to belittle you on the RVOC. I note that as yet you have not reported an example of this behaviour. You start your post by saying t doesn't happen here, you end by saying it doesoh: Please report the offending posts so I can take a look. Thanks

 

[slobadoberbob]

I was talking about the current post

Bob, I'm not talking about this thread, as you say, that has been sorted. I'm talking about the posts that you say are made to belittle you on the RVOC. I note that as yet you have not reported an example of this behaviour. You start your post by saying t doesn't happen here, you end by saying it doesoh: Please report the offending posts so I can take a look. Thanks

I was talking about this post.. which said is dead.. the other issues I will contact you about direct rather than on the forum. But the easy way is I do not post very often on the RVOC these days. Saves the issues. I will I expect discuss them with you at Peterborough when I see you next. Saves a lot of unpleasantness. I post on here to enjoy it... well that is the theory anyway. But I do have a life outside of the forums.

Bob

 

[Ant&Debs]

A Frames

Evening Alll
We Don't Have a vehicle with an A Frame, However last year did travel with other couples who were stopped and fined who did.

I dont understand all this A Frame stuff, even though I have driven Truck/Coaches all over europe and have Operators Licence UK/EUROPE for Frieght.

Q. Can you tow an A Frame in Germany/Italy/France/Spain Etc etc



I understand that people say that because its legal in UK Its Legal elswhere?

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