A-Frame

mblinko said:
Whether in or out of the EU, French law is French law. it is illegal to use an A frame to tow a car in France for any reason except removal of vehicles in an emergency. I understand that the same is true for Spain. the reason being that an A frame with any car on it is regarded as a trailer. in france, all trailers above 750kg must have be braked. Ordinary cars on an A frame are not braked and are thus illegal. Cars with the electronic contraption fitted which activate the brakes of the towed vehicle are not recognise methods of towing. only trailers and dollies are.

whether the local or national police will do anything about it is debateable however, I have heard of people being prevented from going further unless the A frame was decoupled, the car driven and the fine paid on the spot in cash.

sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
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Agree. However, dollies are not recognised as a legal towing method in every country in Yerp, unless you are a recovery vehicle. The only legal way to tow a little car across different European countries legally is to get a trailer.
 
DDJC said:
Anyway, as far as I can determine, the 1968 Vienna Convention states that the vehicle must meet all technical requirements to be legal for road use in the country of registration.
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Trye but it only applies to the individual vehicles .
 
Interesting (to me) advantage of fitting an A frame to my Morris Minor is that, at the moment it is difficult to tow it, or even winch it onto a recovery vehicle. When I broke down a helpful man in a Land Rover wrapped his tow rope around the engine floor pan and ripped it in half. When fitted I assume the A frame will give me an external tow point.
 
mblinko Thanks for the clarification. I will ask if I can have a towing point fitted.

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Have done thousands of miles across France since 2018, towing on an ‘A’ frame, never had any issues. Passed many police, traffic, municipal and Gendarmeri, and probably couldnt be bothered stopping us. Will continue to do so unless the situation changes. Have spoken to many fellow motorhomers at campsites in France who have had mixed experiences in Germany and Italy. Spain is a definite no-no. Prehaps some forum members will add their experiences on this forum of actually receiving a fine or being stopped abroad (as opposed to anecdotal accounts!).
 
They do interpret the law and set presidence.
The law is the nail the courts are the hammer
It will be a court that decides if there is uncertainty.
I think we all agree A framing is awash with it.

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Geo said:
They do interpret the law and set presidence.
The law is the nail the courts are the hammer
It will be a court that decides if there is uncertainty.
I think we all agree A framing is awash with it.
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FWIW I dont think there is any uncertainty for me
 
If it’s illegal in most countries in Europe, then it’s illegal. Whatever your views are, it is still illegal.
 
DelMar said:
If it’s illegal in most countries in Europe, then it’s illegal. Whatever your views are, it is still illegal.
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The use of an A frame in the UK is not illegal (refer to the technical note produced by the DVLA), so long as it meets the requirements (as listed under the guidance note) which A frames from all reputable suppliers in the UK do (lighting, braking etc..).

The subject of specific ‘Type Approval’ is different and should not be confused with the legality issue.

If it was to be deemed illegal, then this would either be legislated against (which it has not) or subject to a court ruling (which it has not either). Therefore an A frame towing IS legal in the UK, until a legal decision is made to the contrary. Having researched the regulations and legislation I cannot see how a decision could be made to the contrary, unless the UKs definition of a trailer is amended in law, or maybe where someone permanently tows an A frame, which then would become subject to type approval. However it is logical that the towing of an A frame is temporary, therefore this doesnt apply.

Outside of the UK an A frame does NOT meet the definition of a trailer (as the EU definition is different to the UK’s). Therefore DelMar is correct for outside of the UK, it is illegal.

However, this is where the Vienna Convention (1977) comes into play. Signatory countries (Spain is not one, but most of the popular EU countries are) should under the convention accept a vehicle as a temporary visitor if the vehicle (and combination of vehicles) is/are legal in the country of registration, assuming that that country is also a signatory to the convention. This is separate to EU legislation. The vehicle must meet certain common standards (registration numbers, country identifiers) but the A frame does not affect these.

However, there was a case taken to the EU court where this was challenged, from memory it related to a UK person on an A frame who received a fine in Germany. The court ruled in favour of the authorities, however said that it was up to each country concerned as to whether they accepted a vehicle that complied in its originating country, and not the EU’s decision regarding the Vienna convention.

So in other words you take your chances. The Vienna Convention if applied properly should allow the use of an A frame abroad, as by definition it is legal in the UK. Insurance companies cover the use of towing on an A frame (assuming they have covered the risk), and therefore any accident involving towing an A frame is covered, in any country that that cover is provided (generally EU with the use of a green card).

The issue is being stopped by the police, and prosecuted in a foreign court (worst case scenario). The likelihood is that if you were stopped (and most people are not - other than Spain), then you are most likely to be asked to de-couple and travel separately. Failing this you may receive a fine of up to 200 Euros. Hiring cars abroad for extended trips will outweigh such a fine, in the unlikely event this happens.

It is all a personal issue and the degree of risk you are willing to accept, and deal with. I am happy that it is UK legal, and that the Vienna Convention does allow a temporary visit to another signatory country, even though it is possible that the rare police officer may interpret things their own way.
 
I don't know about Germany, but Spain has a specific law that prohibits one vehicle to tow another. This applies to broken down vehicles as well, hence the use of platform trucks for recovery. I believe there is an exception made when moving a vehicle a short distance from a dangerous position.
Having said that, we towed to Spain for nearly 20 years with a RV with no problem, but something happened and the Spanish began enforcing the law on visitors. I seem to remember an Englishman went to appeal court after he receive a fine but I can't remember the outcome. We stopped going to Spain.
I don't know the law in France, but there are a few A frame suppliers in France. We've A framed longer than most, ( we had one of the first A frames Alan Bee made,) but I wouldn't tow abroad now. I'm not brave enough or rich enough in my old age to argue with any foreign police officer.
 
emjaiuk said:
I don't know about Germany, but Spain has a specific law that prohibits one vehicle to tow another. This applies to broken down vehicles as well, hence the use of platform trucks for recovery. I believe there is an exception made when moving a vehicle a short distance from a dangerous position.
Having said that, we towed to Spain for nearly 20 years with a RV with no problem, but something happened and the Spanish began enforcing the law on visitors. I seem to remember an Englishman went to appeal court after he receive a fine but I can't remember the outcome. We stopped going to Spain.
I don't know the law in France, but there are a few A frame suppliers in France. We've A framed longer than most, ( we had one of the first A frames Alan Bee made,) but I wouldn't tow abroad now. I'm not brave enough or rich enough in my old age to argue with any foreign police officer.
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Thank you for sharing your experience, I think the Spanish police have all had a legal refresher on this issue, and in any event are not signatories to the Vienna convention anyway. I agree with regards to arguing with a police officer (bad idea ;) ). Communication method and previous professional experience is key. Also accepting that if all else fails, pay 200euros.

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Chazzer924 said:
Having researched the regulations and legislation I cannot see how a decision could be made to the contrary,
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It falls down immediately by modification of the towed vehicle i cotravention of its certificate of conformity by modifying the front chassis rail. It needs to have a new CoC or an sva minimum. Additionally it is contrary to the anti-tuning directive(2007) regarding modifications
 
gus-lopez said:
It falls down immediately by modification of the towed vehicle i cotravention of its certificate of conformity by modifying the front chassis rail. It needs to have a new CoC or an sva minimum. Additionally it is contrary to the anti-tuning directive(2007) regarding modifications
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assuming your post is not a wind-up. Neither the regulations you have raised have any relevance. Perhaps you could post the links to where you think it does?
 
We have a letter from the Spanish Embassy that says it is illegal and you will be fined.

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pandas said:
We have a letter from the Spanish Embassy that says it is illegal and you will be fined.
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For the avoidance of doubt A frame towing is illegal in all of Europe, except the U.K. Spain is not a signatory to the Vienna convention therefore are correct in prosecuting offenders.

The other signatories should accept them, as UK is a signatory. By not doing so they are going against the meaning of a country signing up to an international treaty. That hadn’t stopped tourists being fined, clearly it wasn’t worth the legal expense in taking it to their court and challenging it.
 
gus-lopez said:
It falls down immediately by modification of the towed vehicle i cotravention of its certificate of conformity by modifying the front chassis rail. It needs to have a new CoC or an sva minimum. Additionally it is contrary to the anti-tuning directive(2007) regarding modifications
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With respect, non of that applies to a second hand vehicle
CoC only required to register a new vehicle

hence why we register trucks new and THEN fit all sorts of bespoke stuff to them when they are 12 hours old👍
 
Chazzer924 said:
The use of an A frame in the UK is not illegal (refer to the technical note produced by the DVLA), so long as it meets the requirements (as listed under the guidance note) which A frames from all reputable suppliers in the UK do (lighting, braking etc..).

The subject of specific ‘Type Approval’ is different and should not be confused with the legality issue.

If it was to be deemed illegal, then this would either be legislated against (which it has not) or subject to a court ruling (which it has not either). Therefore an A frame towing IS legal in the UK, until a legal decision is made to the contrary. Having researched the regulations and legislation I cannot see how a decision could be made to the contrary, unless the UKs definition of a trailer is amended in law, or maybe where someone permanently tows an A frame, which then would become subject to type approval. However it is logical that the towing of an A frame is temporary, therefore this doesnt apply.

Outside of the UK an A frame does NOT meet the definition of a trailer (as the EU definition is different to the UK’s). Therefore DelMar is correct for outside of the UK, it is illegal.

However, this is where the Vienna Convention (1977) comes into play. Signatory countries (Spain is not one, but most of the popular EU countries are) should under the convention accept a vehicle as a temporary visitor if the vehicle (and combination of vehicles) is/are legal in the country of registration, assuming that that country is also a signatory to the convention. This is separate to EU legislation. The vehicle must meet certain common standards (registration numbers, country identifiers) but the A frame does not affect these.

However, there was a case taken to the EU court where this was challenged, from memory it related to a UK person on an A frame who received a fine in Germany. The court ruled in favour of the authorities, however said that it was up to each country concerned as to whether they accepted a vehicle that complied in its originating country, and not the EU’s decision regarding the Vienna convention.

So in other words you take your chances. The Vienna Convention if applied properly should allow the use of an A frame abroad, as by definition it is legal in the UK. Insurance companies cover the use of towing on an A frame (assuming they have covered the risk), and therefore any accident involving towing an A frame is covered, in any country that that cover is provided (generally EU with the use of a green card).

The issue is being stopped by the police, and prosecuted in a foreign court (worst case scenario). The likelihood is that if you were stopped (and most people are not - other than Spain), then you are most likely to be asked to de-couple and travel separately. Failing this you may receive a fine of up to 200 Euros. Hiring cars abroad for extended trips will outweigh such a fine, in the unlikely event this happens.

It is all a personal issue and the degree of risk you are willing to accept, and deal with. I am happy that it is UK legal, and that the Vienna Convention does allow a temporary visit to another signatory country, even though it is possible that the rare police officer may interpret things their own way.
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Correction UPDATE - I have further researched the Vienna convention of 1968 which has been updated since its introduction in 1977. The definition of a trailer (for which ‘A’-frame manufacturers are relying on in the UK) is stated in the Vienna convention (amendments 2018) and is expressly stated as [ … (Q) “Trailer” means any vehicle designed to be drawn by a power-driven vehicle and includes semi-trailers; …]. This is different from the UK definition.

Therefore the adaptation of a vehicle into an ‘A’-frame would not meet this definition, therefore it is NOT possible to rely on the Vienna convention to use an ’A’-frame abroad. As I see it given this further research only A-framing is restricted to the UK only.

:)

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I'm not saying this is legal or not , but the other day a transit type van passed my pulling a small car on a "dolly" type towing bar with the front wheels off the ground. I know these type of towing bars are for emergency services only and for short periods only , Where this was different and I've not seen it before the rear wheels where also lifted off the ground on what looked like a simlilar dolly to the front wheels without the towing bar.

So it looked like it was on a 4 wheel trailer but without the central element of a conventional trailer, it was just a axle dolly front and back. If this was legal everywhere what a great idea and no issues with trailer storage just 2 dolly type things
 
TheTwoOfUs said:
How was it braked?
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I don't know as it passed me in the opposite direction , but at a guess the front dolly would be the brakes (at a guess compression type like a caravan). I don't even know if it's legal but I just thought if it was what a great way to tow a car , it has the benefits of the "A" frame of storage issues and ease of loading , and the benefits of a trailer as all wheels of the ground.

I'll have a look on the internet to see if I can find it
 
1624293447226.png

It looked like this
 
A Frame, illegal.
But not all illegal acts are prosecuted...
People speed & don't get fined.

Do you feel lucky punk

dirty harry GIF

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