A frame towing

I dont know why A frames are ever cited in this argument as it's not really about A Frames is it?
Its not permited to tow another vehicle in Spain period, as has already been stated except as a load on a recognised trailer.
Spain simply does not recognise your A frame set up as a trailer
If you really belive that the UKs stance that by attaching an A Frame converts your car into a trailer
Try cancelling your road tax fitting your A frame and parking it on the road
Im a User too by the way and like Charlie not deluded I am aware of the risks but not rich enough or daft enough to take them
UK= A Frame. Europe and its on the trailer
Geo
 
Foghorn Leghorn said:
And the risk of being stopped and fined is small ? How can you be so sure of that
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Well has anyone here actually been done ?? Last time this came up no one actually had... Rumour is not fact !

One of the A frame company's had a print out of a document where someone got pulled fined and challenged it to have it overturned. I showed the document to my daughter who is a highly qualified solicitor and while she said it's ambiguous she also pointed out so is the interpretation of the law. I carry a copy of that ruling along with the certificates of conformity for my A frame device.

With law it's not really possible to be entirely positive dimly because of the variables and the variation of how each copper might or might not interpret the point of law.

Me ? I really couldn't give monkeys honestly I just don't. I will worry if I get in the position where I'm in the cart and not before.
 
Charlie said:
Well has anyone here actually been done ?? Last time this came up no one actually had... Rumour is not fact !

One of the A frame company's had a print out of a document where someone got pulled fined and challenged it to have it overturned. I showed the document to my daughter who is a highly qualified solicitor and while she said it's ambiguous she also pointed out so is the interpretation of the law. I carry a copy of that ruling along with the certificates of conformity for my A frame device.

With law it's not really possible to be entirely positive dimly because of the variables and the variation of how each copper might or might not interpret the point of law.

Me ? I really couldn't give monkeys honestly I just don't. I will worry if I get in the position where I'm in the cart and not before.
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So according to your highly qualified daughter it is not even certain that using an A-Frame is legal in the UK? The reality seems to be that until there is a test case that goes on appeal all the way to (say) the Court of Appeal nobody can really be sure one way or the other. The document referred to may not be binding on the lower courts who meanwhile can apply a different interpretation of the law, so the lack of certainty will continue.
 
SpeedyDux said:
So according to your highly qualified daughter it is not even certain that using an A-Frame is legal in the UK? The reality seems to be that until there is a test case that goes on appeal all the way to (say) the Court of Appeal nobody can really be sure one way or the other. The document referred to may not be binding on the lower courts who meanwhile can apply a different interpretation of the law, so the lack of certainty will continue.
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We were talking Spain ?
 
Charlie said:
Well has anyone here actually been done ?? Last time this came up no one actually had... Rumour is not fact !

One of the A frame company's had a print out of a document where someone got pulled fined and challenged it to have it overturned. I showed the document to my daughter who is a highly qualified solicitor and while she said it's ambiguous she also pointed out so is the interpretation of the law. I carry a copy of that ruling along with the certificates of conformity for my A frame device.

With law it's not really possible to be entirely positive dimly because of the variables and the variation of how each copper might or might not interpret the point of law.

Me ? I really couldn't give monkeys honestly I just don't. I will worry if I get in the position where I'm in the cart and not before.
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To challenge almost anything in the courts of Spain can take years and years and years, by the time you have possibly won you could have spent all your money on solicitors and fees, and be very close to passing into the next world

One chap near Seville pinched a bike, got caught, his case came up 6 years later, when he did it he was single, when he went to court he was married with a child.

I do (and I mean it) wish you luck with your challenge.

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Are you saying Towing with an A frame in Spain or pinching a bike can get yer Missus up the Duff:Eeek:
Wanted Trailer For sale or rent, room to let 50 Cents:rofl:
G
 
Charlie said:
But the chances of a prosecution is actually very very small indeed. But yes it's possible.

So it's a wee gamble. Think about it and think about the small penalty IF you get a pull.
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There won't be a prosecution unless you refuse to pay the on the spot fine.
Which will mean you are going nowhere under your own steam.
Agreed, it's only a relatively small fine but that isn't the end of it.
You WILL be told to hitch and drive separately, no problem if you have a passenger who can legally drive the toad.....many folks, myself included, don't which presents a real problem.
 
Charlie said:
Well has anyone here actually been done ?? Last time this came up no one actually had... Rumour is not fact !

One of the A frame company's had a print out of a document where someone got pulled fined and challenged it to have it overturned. I showed the document to my daughter who is a highly qualified solicitor and while she said it's ambiguous she also pointed out so is the interpretation of the law. I carry a copy of that ruling along with the certificates of conformity for my A frame device.

With law it's not really possible to be entirely positive dimly because of the variables and the variation of how each copper might or might not interpret the point of law.

Me ? I really couldn't give monkeys honestly I just don't. I will worry if I get in the position where I'm in the cart and not before.
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I am guessing that your daughter is highly qualified in English law, if that is the case it really doesn't mean much in Spain.

Charlie said:
Once again this subject goes round in circles.... But let me as a question. Has anyone here actually been pulled ?
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You yourself said that the A frame company had information about somebody that had been stopped and challenged it.

I will not reply anymore, it is against the law in Spain to tow a vehicle end of. I sometimes think that British citizens think that English law or rules take precedence all over the world but when people come to the UK from another country they HAVE to obey British law.

Funny old world. :)

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so the vienna convention rules dont apply in spain , is that what your trying to say?
 
Charlie said:
Once again this subject goes round in circles.... But let me as a question. Has anyone here actually been pulled ?
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Well before your time on fun we had a member, Brian, who was also the forums admin and troubleshooter before Grommet.
Unfortunately he is no longer an active member so he can't confirm but....

He was stopped in Spain (autoroute I believe) driving his/suzy's safari trek RV with his Jeep commander strapped to the A frame.

He was fined on the spot and made to unhitch.

Something like €60 from memory.
They weren't the only ones in the group to be fined.
Fortunately both he and other half Suzy where equally capable, and legal, of driving either vehicle.
 
and if you take it higher it gets squashed .
it has been done and fines returned with costs .
but i admit unless you are prepared to go the whole way best dont do it .
you have to stand up for your rights in spain . if your weak then dont bother .
lots do stand up for their rights and dont get fined . but it does cause alot of bother . mind it can be fun.
usually once it gets higher and out of the hands of the local police mafia you win .
 
Charlie said:
Once again this subject goes round in circles.... But let me as a question. Has anyone here actually been pulled ?
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Yes and from memory cost €40 (it was a few years back)
We had got away with it from Roscoff to Lleida nearly made it to destination at Ampolla.No end of reasoning and argument and the fact it was an ex AA .A frame got told this is Spain not UK .disconnected paid the fine took note of passport number and on our merry way .

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Charlie said:
Once again this subject goes round in circles.... But let me as a question. Has anyone here actually been pulled ?
Click to expand...

I am also a subscriber on the 'other' forum with an 'F'. Well respected member reported being stopped in Italy, showed the police the document from the A Frame company - totally ignored it, fined and made to uncouple.

Another stopped in Spain, fined €100 on the spot, would have been €200 if not paid immediately, made to uncouple and told not to recoup le in Spain as the offence is immediately recorded on the national database.

Comment from German member:

"I am German and I definitely know that the use of A-frames in Germany is illegal."

I speak as a user of A frame in the past, I have a house in Spain and know that towing a vehicle by any means is illegal so I sold mine.

For some reason certain people refuse to accept the law in Spain - towing a vehicle is illegal whether you are British, Spanish, Polish etc. Etc. That's why my car insurance policy in Spain includes breakdown cover as a standard feature.
 
Charlie said:
Once again this subject goes round in circles.... But let me as a question. Has anyone here actually been pulled ?
Click to expand...

A forum member I can't answer that , but I personally know of two motorhomers who were stopped , fined and made to uncouple .
They came into La Manga rally when I was there in early 2015 .
One being a fairly close friend .
Now I'm not mentioning names but you can choose to disbelieve if you so wish , but what would I have gain by a fabricated tale
 
We have been stopped and fined in Germany. We were told by German police it was "not legal in Germany like Spain". Fine €25 and I had to drive the car to the boarder
Happy to use elsewhere.

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I don't know why this subject still generates controversy. There are a number of statements online from Spanish authorities that basically confirm that a motor vehicle doesn't ever change into a trailer and towing a car is illegal apart from under very specific circumstances.

In the UK the authorities are prepared to regard it as a trailer provided it complies with trailer legislation. Which it nearly does and therefore will require a Court case to decide once and for all.
 
tonyidle said:
I don't know why this subject still generates controversy. There are a number of statements online from Spanish authorities that basically confirm that a motor vehicle doesn't ever change into a trailer and towing a car is illegal apart from under very specific circumstances.

In the UK the authorities are prepared to regard it as a trailer provided it complies with trailer legislation. Which it nearly does and therefore will require a Court case to decide once and for all.
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That is pretty much the point that I was trying to make earlier - for now at least it is far from certain that A-Frames comply fully enough with UK trailer legislation. The consensus seems to be that their use is tolerated in the UK so MHers need not worry unduly. I am not against A-Frames and have no problem with them being tolerated. It would be better all round if the UK Regulations did provide a specific carve-out for A-Frames to give clarity and peace of mind.

The argument that they can be used in other EU countries such as Spain, relying on some document or certificate (however you describe it) from the supplier that says A-Frames are legal in the UK is fundamentally flawed. Before you can begin to convince a Spanish court to overturn a traffic penalty / fine, as a starting point you probably need unambiguous documentary proof that a Toad is legally a trailer, even in the UK. From what I have read on this thread and elsewhere (and I am not an expert) at best the assertion of legality still seems to be based largely on one interpretation of the law pushed by suppliers with a vested interest. If you choose to rely on that in the UK or another country you should be aware that there is a degree of risk involved.

In Spain as has been helpfully pointed out a Toad on its A-Frame cannot legally be a trailer so that really leaves little or perhaps no room for an argument that says otherwise. The risk boils down to your chances of being stopped by the Police. Good luck with that. The implications for your insurance cover would be another can of worms, so best not crash while driving illegally.
 
SpeedyDux said:
That is pretty much the point that I was trying to make earlier - for now at least it is far from certain that A-Frames comply fully enough with UK trailer legislation. The consensus seems to be that their use is tolerated in the UK so MHers need not worry unduly. I am not against A-Frames and have no problem with them being tolerated. It would be better all round if the UK Regulations did provide a specific carve-out for A-Frames to give clarity and peace of mind.

The argument that they can be used in other EU countries such as Spain, relying on some document or certificate (however you describe it) from the supplier that says A-Frames are legal in the UK is fundamentally flawed. Before you can begin to convince a Spanish court to overturn a traffic penalty / fine, as a starting point you probably need unambiguous documentary proof that a Toad is legally a trailer, even in the UK. From what I have read on this thread and elsewhere (and I am not an expert) at best the assertion of legality still seems to be based largely on one interpretation of the law pushed by suppliers with a vested interest. If you choose to rely on that in the UK or another country you should be aware that there is a degree of risk involved.

In Spain as has been helpfully pointed out a Toad on its A-Frame cannot legally be a trailer so that really leaves little or perhaps no room for an argument that says otherwise. The risk boils down to your chances of being stopped by the Police. Good luck with that. The implications for your insurance cover would be another can of worms, so best not crash while driving illegally.
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Not wishing to split hairs but I have it in writing from our insurers LV that we are entirely and comprehensively covered for the MH the Car and all risks whilst towing a car on an A frame behind our Motor home for all of Europe. I was insistent they wrote it all down specifically for me for the avoidance of doubt..
 
Charlie said:
Once again this subject goes round in circles.... But let me as a question. Has anyone here actually been pulled ?
Click to expand...

I have not but I personally know a friend from the UK who was pulled over at a motorway toll payment area and instructed by Trafico Officers to decouple and continue as the 2 separate road vehicles that they patently are. This was on the A7 East coast motorway in March 2016. His wife had to drive the towed car for the rest of their tour through Spain. He was not fined as he obeyed straight away.

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Xabia said:
I am also a subscriber on the 'other' forum with an 'F'. Well respected member reported being stopped in Italy, showed the police the document from the A Frame company - totally ignored it, fined and made to uncouple.

Another stopped in Spain, fined €100 on the spot, would have been €200 if not paid immediately, made to uncouple and told not to recoup le in Spain as the offence is immediately recorded on the national database.

Comment from German member:

"I am German and I definitely know that the use of A-frames in Germany is illegal."

I speak as a user of A frame in the past, I have a house in Spain and know that towing a vehicle by any means is illegal so I sold mine.

For some reason certain people refuse to accept the law in Spain - towing a vehicle is illegal whether you are British, Spanish, Polish etc. Etc. That's why my car insurance policy in Spain includes breakdown cover as a standard feature.
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If one of those certain people is me then I think you misunderstand. I believe and accept its not legal never said otherwise. But I just can't be arsed to worry about a 40 or 60 euro fine.. But as I've said several times there are plenty of other places to go other than Spain.
 
Charlie said:
If one of those certain people is me then I think you misunderstand. I believe and accept its not legal never said otherwise. But I just can't be arsed to worry about a 40 or 60 euro fine.. But as I've said several times there are plenty of other places to go other than Spain.
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It's not "40 or 60 euros". The fine for towing one road vehicle illegally with another road vehicle in Spain is 300 euros. Check the dgt.es website.
 
Charlie said:
Not wishing to split hairs but I have it in writing from our insurers LV that we are entirely and comprehensively covered for the MH the Car and all risks whilst towing a car on an A frame behind our Motor home for all of Europe. I was insistent they wrote it all down specifically for me for the avoidance of doubt..
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As did I when I used to tow a toad on an A frame back in the 90''s. We went through France and Spain several times. But in 2006 onward I was pulled 3 times and let off with a warning. It was after that we started R-V king in th USA. Where they are not so bloody STUPID.

Pete
 
Charlie said:
Not wishing to split hairs but I have it in writing from our insurers LV that we are entirely and comprehensively covered for the MH the Car and all risks whilst towing a car on an A frame behind our Motor home for all of Europe. I was insistent they wrote it all down specifically for me for the avoidance of doubt..
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Our toad is also specifically covered; I made sure of that. Now my risks to others and self are covered, for the rest of it simply do as Charlie does. Accept the risk and take the risk. If pulled, the only person that will suffer is the risk taker themself, so what is the problem? As far as A frames are concerned, I will do what I want, how I want and when I want as long as it does not impact on others. We are all old enough and mature enough to make our own decisions about things; and yes, we know that they aren't legal in Spain, probably France and Germany as well, but I tell you what? We don't actually care...... it is our problem and getting a teensy bit fed up with effectively being lectured about the evils of A framing.....

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