90 days in 180

[Northernraider]

As long as Ms Sturgeon isn’t successful with her Scottish Independence then she rejoins the EU I will be happy that I can still travel throughout Scotland without a passport. Worse could happen, she gets independence and Shetland get it from Scotland and go back in with Denmark, doesn’t bear thinking about

That day is coming so you may as well embrace it ..

 

[Northernraider]

It's amazing to think that anyone bar a self harming slave would vote for such a scenario.

Anyway unless some unseen disaster happens I'll be in the EU till end of march
And I'll worry about any fallout from that if and when it happens ..

The UK government doesn't currently know it's arse from its elbow so why should any of us.

Once he sells out the fishing rights the biggest Tory voting area in Scotland will soon come back to their senses and next may SNP will wipe the board and we will go our own way at last .

 

[sallylillian]

It's amazing to think that anyone bar a self harming slave would vote for such a scenario.

Anyway unless some unseen disaster happens I'll be in the EU till end of march
And I'll worry about any fallout from that if and when it happens ..

The UK government doesn't currently know it's arse from its elbow so why should any of us.

Once he sells out the fishing rights the biggest Tory voting area in Scotland will soon come back to their senses and next may SNP will wipe the board and we will go our own way at last .

Hurrah personally I am fed up with the constant bleeting of the SNP. I think we English should have a referendum to set Scotland off in their own boat and see how that works.

 

[Northernraider]

Hurrah personally I am fed up with the constant bleeding of the SNP. I think we English should have a referendum to set Scotland off in their own boat and see how that works.

I wish they would as maybe there would be a chance of getting it then instead of 60 milion overpowering 6

Those against Scottish independence yet for brexit seem incredibly hypocritical to me.

Its not personal against the English it's personal against the corrupt Westminster establishment that does nothing bar lie and cheat and yet still manages to gain support from those who don't care by what means a goal is achieved.

No glory in that whatsoever in my book

 

[Googlebot]

Calm down everyone, no need to start taking digs at each other.

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[sallylillian]

I wish they would as maybe there would be a chance of getting it then instead of 60 milion overpowering 6

Those against Scottish independence yet for brexit seem incredibly hypocritical to me.

Its not personal against the English it's personal against the corrupt Westminster establishment that does nothing bar lie and cheat and yet still manages to gain support from those who don't care by what means a goal is achieved.

No glory in that whatsoever in my book

So give up the Barnet formula as a test.

 

[Molly A]

He complies with the 90/180 ruling, so why not?

Pete

Sorry Pete? You are correct...

 

[Northernraider]

So give up the Barnet formula as a test.

In order to do that our estemed master needs to allow our devolved government to a) borrow money that westminsters so good at doing
And
B) release control of our assets and stop milking the cash cow.

Something they will never do hence gripping on with white knuckles

If Scotland truly was the burden Westminster has told England for decades we would have been cast adrift like everything else the Tories have destroyed.

 

[Googlebot]

In order to do that our estimeeded master needs to allow our devolved government to a) borrow money that westminsters so good at doing
And
B) release control of our assets and stop milking the cash cow.

Something they will never do hence gripping on with white knuckles

If Scotland truly was the burden Westminster has told England for decades we would have been cast adrift like everything else the Tories have destroyed.

Please don’t go!

I can’t face using my passport at the Scottish and French border.

As a lefty remoaner, I am gutted we are leaving the EU let alone Scotland. At this rate I will need a passport to exit the West Midlands!

 

[spitfire]

In order to do that our estimeeded master needs to allow our devolved government to a) borrow money that westminsters so good at doing
And
B) release control of our assets and stop milking the cash cow.

Something they will never do hence gripping on with white knuckles

If Scotland truly was the burden Westminster has told England for decades we would have been cast adrift like everything else the Tories have destroyed.

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[Northernraider]

Please don’t go!

I can’t face using my passport at the Scottish and French border.

As a lefty remoaner, I am gutted we are leaving the EU let alone Scotland. At this rate I will need a passport to exit the West Midlands!

I'm pretty sure that an independent Scotland wouldn't have all that hassle unless Westminster were as childish and hard headed as they are now with the EU.
But that said I doubt with the current bunch of eedjits that would be possible.

The puppet from spiting image would do a better job

 

[Northernraider]

View attachment 430834

Exactly

But then I'm not surprised there are many people south of the border don't know any of that ....I was constantly amazed at how many people I met around England that had never set foot in Scotland

A few even asked if we had motorways and if haggis were real ....and that is sadly no joke

 

[spitfire]

I'm pretty sure that an independent Scotland wouldn't have all that hassle unless Westminster were as childish and hard headed as they are now with the EU.
But that said I doubt with the current bunch of eedjits that would be possible.

The puppet from spiting image would do a better job

As a Scot I find it insulting that any discussion reference to Scotland or a Scottish MP talking Tory MP’s walk out including Boris every time . Very very noticeable and that is the man who says he supports the union

 

[Northernraider]

As a Scot I find it insulting that any discussion reference to Scotland or a Scottish MP talking Tory MP’s walk out including Boris every time . Very very noticeable and that is the man who says he supports the union

Yep that too ...all the spoilt brat booing and hissing and desperately looking behind him for support ...bunch of privileged toffs with not a clue or a care about the ordinary man

And blame everything on the EU and immigration.
Pathetic

 

[EdwardFT]

Hurrah personally I am fed up with the constant bleeting of the SNP. I think we English should have a referendum to set Scotland off in their own boat and see how that works.

Why don't you have a referendum to decide whether England will leave the U.K.? It is after all a union of equals, neither can throw the other out.

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[JockandRita]

Back on topic..............................

So in layman terms, if I wish to be in Europe for Spring and Autumn for 90 day trips and I break each of these trips up with a 90 day period back in the UK, is this workable under the terms we anticipate will be introduced?

That's exactly how I interpreted the 90/180 rule, ie, Spain until end of March, home for spring and summer, then off again in September, for us anyway.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[EdwardFT]

Yes apologies it is me getting confused with what it used to be years ago.

Permanent residency under EU rules in excess of 5 years made you the same as a national without the passport. You retain exactly the same rights that you had before under the withdrawal agreement(WA).
I specifically asked the question of the Policia Nacional on 3 seperate occasions to be told each time that i was exactly the same as a national of any EU state who could stay for up to 90 consecutive days in another state & the reset the clock by going in to another.
I had the A4 green residency sheet but obviously whilst there is no requirement to change to the new EU wide identity card the benefits are multiple.
On the spanish TIE it is biometric, holds full details including fingerprints, allows you to cross borders into other eu states without needing a passport.
I've no idea about other countries but under EU directives the card should be exactly the same as the one I have just got accept stating what country it was issued by.
The other thing , & pointed out at the police station is that as a permanent resident in spain If I travelled into France who would know how long I had been there as there are no borders & the production of the card shows basically that I am spanish but without the passport.

Here is the Moncloa( spanish parliament day to day records) showing that travel without a passport & with the card alone is ok.
https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/brexit/howtoprepare/Paginas/190108residence.aspx


**However, obtaining this residence document, which complies with a model established at a European level and which expressly mentions the holder's status as beneficiary of the Withdrawal Agreement, is very useful, as it is a physical card that includes biometric elements that will allow many administrative procedures to be carried out, including crossing foreign borders within the European Union. **

Thank you. I was insufficiently precise in my thinking. I have residence in France but I have not had it for 5 years yet.

 

[Spawn_e_git]

And much of our Railways owned by foreign government owned companies.......so much for de nationalisation

None of our Railways are OWNED by foreign companies, they run franchises for a set period of time. They can (and have) been taken back into public control when the DfT has decided to.
The tracks, stations etc (infrastructure) are state owned and run by Network Rail.

 

[nicholsong]

The only thing under discussion right now is a trade deal. The freedom of movement issue has already been decided. 90 days in 180...that's your lot. Thanks Brexiteers for removing the freedoms which underpin the way that many of us choose to lead our lives.

I believe that there are many things which have been agreed which have not been announced and probably will not be until the negotiations are over, because they may be dependent on an overall agreement and may fail if there is no agreement, so nothing announced.

Whilst I have seen it stated that, without a differnt agreement on UK Citizens access to EU/Schengen, then the 90/180 rule would apply, I have not seen it stated that even with an agreement that rule will still applies.

What is your source for the assertion, please?

Geoff

 

[2657]

None of our Railways are OWNED by foreign companies, they run franchises for a set period of time. They can (and have) been taken back into public control when the DfT has decided to.
The tracks, stations etc (infrastructure) are state owned and run by Network Rail.

You are of course correct, I should have used the words 'operated by'

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[Spawn_e_git]

What is your source for the assertion, please?

Geoff

Travel or do business in Europe: Brexit guidance

Find out how new Brexit rules apply to things like travelling, working, studying and doing business with Europe in or with EU countries.

www.gov.uk

 

[nicholsong]

Travel or do business in Europe: Brexit guidance

Find out how new Brexit rules apply to things like travelling, working, studying and doing business with Europe in or with EU countries.

www.gov.uk

First paragrph thereof reads

"This page tells you how to prepare if you’re planning on travelling to Europe from 1 January 2021. It will be updated if anything changes. "

So the official government information contemplates it may change. So it is not set in stone.

They are giving the information on how it will be if nothing changes. That is all.

Geoff

 

[Rob Hammond]

As Mr Barnier said nothing is agreed until everything is agreed

 

[nicholsong]

It's not going to change, you're clutching at non-existent straws.
The UK will be a third country and treated as per 90/180 as all countries not in EU/EEA etc.
The only way that would change is if we joined the EEA and that is not going to happen.
If anything the UK will move further away from the EU. Even people in NI that will still have to live under certain rules of the EU will have to live by the 90/180 (except for ROI)

I am not clutching at straws as I do not live in the UK.

I was just pointing out for our resaders that even the UK Government announcement is hedged with an 'if',and your ascertion that it cannot change is not sustained by the document that you quote, whatever you beieive will happen.

I will look after my own situation.

Geoff

 

[orridge]

Hang on a minute, I have something to post and it is not about Scotland, but about 90/180.

Whatever the rules UK residents have to follow, whether it is as currently envisaged, or even as low as the 90 day in any one country that all EU citizens should abide by, there arises some points on showing one has complied.

The external borders of the Schengen area are controlled and systems are in place to link all information on all border checks. The authorities here seem to be taking upon themselves the onus of tracking individuals' movements into and out of Schengen.

Within Schengen one may, but only very occassionally, be asked how long one has been in Schengen or a particular country. If so, two questions arise :-

Is the onus on the individual to prove one is compliant with the rules, or is the onus on the authorities to prove it or the opposite?

Secondly, what evidence is needed by either side to establish the facts to prove or disprove compliance?

So far I have not seen any official answers to these questions.

Does anyone else definitively know the answers, not to speculation or thoughts?

Geoff

I believe it the onus is on the person to prove they did not overstay by showing things like travel receipts, hotel receipts etc etc showing when they arrived in Schengen or left.

This is very common for travellers from other 3rd party countries like Australia

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[DBK]

Hang on a minute, I have something to post and it is not about Scotland, but about 90/180.

Whatever the rules UK residents have to follow, whether it is as currently envisaged, or even as low as the 90 day in any one country that all EU citizens should abide by, there arises some points on showing one has complied.

The external borders of the Schengen area are controlled and systems are in place to link all information on all border checks. The authorities here seem to be taking upon themselves the onus of tracking individuals' movements into and out of Schengen.

Within Schengen one may, but only very occassionally, be asked how long one has been in Schengen or a particular country. If so, two questions arise :-

Is the onus on the individual to prove one is compliant with the rules, or is the onus on the authorities to prove it or the opposite?

Secondly, what evidence is needed by either side to establish the facts to prove or disprove compliance?

So far I have not seen any official answers to these questions.

Does anyone else definitively know the answers, not to speculation or thoughts?

Geoff

I don't think anyone would be prosecuted for overstaying unless the authorities had evidence. For Schengen it would be entries in the computer system showing the date of entry. For an individual country it might be ANPR or CCTV evidence. In both cases if you wanted to fight it the onus would be on you to produce evidence to show they are wrong.

 

[Manxcat]

You seem to be complicating the issue. When you cross the border into the schengen region your passport is scanned and entry is recorded. Assuming you were not on the zone for the previous 90 days you have an allowance of 90 days.

When you leave the schengen area your passport is scanned. If you are over 90 days you are in trouble. When I researched this a few years ago there may be some extenuating circumstances such as illness or maybe strikes by ferry workers etc.

The system is very simple. And bloody annoying, but its what the UK voted for.

 

[nicholsong]

I believe it the onus is on the person to prove they did not overstay by showing things like travel receipts, hotel receipts etc etc showing when they arrived in Schengen or left.

This is very common for travellers from other 3rd party countries like Australia

'I believe' is not a definitive answer. As for receipts, since it is a rolling 90 days one would need a receipt for each ongoing day.

I don't think anyone would be prosecuted for overstaying unless the authorities had evidence. For Schengen it would be entries in the computer system showing the date of entry. For an individual country it might be ANPR or CCTV evidence. In both cases if you wanted to fight it the onus would be on you to produce evidence to show they are wrong.

What you think is not a definitive answer as requested.

You seem to be complicating the issue. When you cross the border into the schengen region your passport is scanned and entry is recorded. Assuming you were not on the zone for the previous 90 days you have an allowance of 90 days.

When you leave the schengen area your passport is scanned. If you are over 90 days you are in trouble. When I researched this a few years ago there may be some extenuating circumstances such as illness or maybe strikes by ferry workers etc.

The system is very simple. And bloody annoying, but its what the UK voted for.

I dealt with the Schengen external borders and then went on to dicuss the situation when one is 'Within Schengen'. Please don't go into the politics as per Jim's post above.

Going on -
If the onus is on the individual, the evidence of when one entered Schengen is not available to the individual, if the passport has only been scanned, only to the authorities, This leads to the suggestion that the onus of proof should be on the authorities.

ANPR may only prove when the vehicle entered but not the occupants. Not all systems can identify the persons especially if not seated at the front.

Geoff

 

[Tykatem]

It's worth reiterating what I recently said on a similar thread.

An overstayed visa never goes unnoticed. The immigration authorities have registered in their databases every person that enters and leaves the Schengen, and every overstaying, even just for a day, is recorded.
Secondly, intentional or unintentional, no overstaying is left unpunished. It could be a fine, immediate deportation or even getting banned from entering the Schengen Zone for a specific amount of time.

it does not matter if you have entered Schengen territory on a Schengen Visa, or if you are the national of a country, to which a visa waiver has been applied. You are not allowed to overstay the 90 days amount of permitted stay per 180 days, even if you belong to one of the latter.

The Schengen Area 90/180 Day Rule Explained

The 90/180-day rule states that any foreign national who enters the Schengen zone (any country within the area) can stay for up to 90 days within any 180 days. At first glance, it seems a very simple rule, but it’s often misunderstood, and many people overstay it, resulting in them facing...

www.schengenvisainfo.com

Pete

 

[DBK]

Going on -
If the onus is on the individual, the evidence of when one entered Schengen is not available to the individual, if the passport has only been scanned, only to the authorities, This leads to the suggestion that the onus of proof should be on the authorities.

ANPR may only prove when the vehicle entered but not the occupants. Not all systems can identify the persons especially if not seated at the front.

Geoff

The evidence on their computer system is their evidence and all they need to take whatever action they decide. If you made a trip to Morocco during the 90+ days then you would need to show proof this was true and convince them the Spanish just forgot to record you leaving and returning.

The Schengen situation is very clear to me. Particularly once their new system is up and running next year they will have very clear evidence of when individuals entered and it will be down to the individual to prove they are wrong. This is no different to getting a parking or speeding ticket. If you want to fight the prosecution you need to find the evidence to defend yourself. The authorities have theirs which is why they are prosecuting.

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