115BHP or 130BHP

[Kannon Fodda]

Good afternoon knowledgeable people

I'm in the market for a shiny new panel van conversion having decided I need a major step up from the tent. It's just for me, but I do like a few mod cons so I'm looking at a Hi-Top, end lounge layout, but also conscious that I don't want to be too big, both for parking up, and general maneuverability. Having traipsed around the NEC the Auto Trail 540SE at 5.4m long seems to fit the bill.

My challenge is the engine. Fiat's default size is now a 2.0 115BHP unit. For £900 (or thereabouts) this could be replaced with a 2.3 130BHP unit. I can find very little information in my searches as to whether people are happy, or otherwise.

People on the NEC stands said the 115BHP would be fine, but then most PVCs on display (albeit mostly 6m or longer models) had 130BHP engines. There doesn't seem to be much comment on any review sites for this motorhome or any other manufacturer's which all seem to have driven the 130BHP or greater lumps in larger PVCs. But then Fiat's website and even Auto Trail suggest the 130BHP is the popular size?

No doubt the 115bhp will get me there. It's not as if one has a motorhome to break land speed records so general motorway cruising of 60-65mph is probably the norm, and going along at 70 (or in a moment of madness more) will hit fuel use. But what about the longer motorway uphill drags (there seem to be a couple on the M3 Winchester - Southampton area), let alone if I decide to do something a bit windy around Wales, or the edge of nowhere of West Ireland.

If money was no object then I'd have the 150bhp, with an auto gearbox. But there is a budget. Even so this vehicle will be costing more than I can sensibly afford and it will have to last me many years and trips. So will I really regret only having 115bhp, and do I really need 130bhp?

 

[GPW]

In the PVC sector I found that Murvi had the best kitchens - acres of counter-top space, full ovens, many rings. Second came the rear lounge with full cookers and the odd twin fixed fed like the WildAx, then the regular european fixed beds + dinette had the smallest kitchens - often just a two burner hob and no oven (like in the one I ordered).

Additionally for lounge space the top was also Murvi, many of the european twin fixed bed have quite cramped dinettes for me - pehaps as I'm quite tall. The Globescout and Adria Twins (esp. Plus and Supreme) have a nice amount of space in the dinette so it acts more of a lounge for entertaining but that's because they are all 6m long!

I found in 5.4m sizes and 6m where they used the extra lebgth for extra cupboards it was a bit cramped still. I suspect the length is still your greatest restriction as there are so few made of the medium and short WB sizes - I also wanted a 5m or 5.4m and ended up with a 6m (that I have to make space for!) as it ticked all the other boxes.
Have a watch of this as a good roundup of short vans from 2015:


When I was looking I also wanted a 5-5.4m and was torn between a 115, 130, 150 and auto choices but in the end the ambience/feel of the van and the budget meant I ended up with 160bhp and 6m I liked that also cost less than most starting prices LOL, so I'm not very good at advising how to stick to specific criteria as mine are clearly a bit like whack-a-mole

 

[SpeedyDux]

Dealers are going to say that 115 bhp is fine just to get a new sale. On the day you want to trade it in the script will change. I suspect you will be told "Sorry, we can't shift the 115 engined ones, although we don't see many. 130s, that's what our pre-owned customers always want." Followed by a rock bottom PX valuation.

I'm with Jeremy Clarkson when it comes to power. 115 bhp seems a bit weedy even for a family car, never mind a 3500 kg MH.

If it had been available I would have ordered the 3 litre engine with my 5.4m PVC. I had to settle for the 150 + ComfortMatic gearbox. Worth every penny.

 

[GPW]

When I researched this I found the 150bhp engine had the same economy as the 130 but everyone and his dog said the power was far far better and more usable.

They all cost about the same for Fiat to make and I noticed that many Knaus specials were at 150 already so the trend is definitely upward and you may find it in spacials, e.g: the Knaus Platinum 5.4m Boxcar. Maybe find one and go for a testdrive or hire one to be sure as what bothers some is fine for others.

Re the OP's DPF notes above:
The DPF filter on Euro-6 engines is interesting - it catches all the soot and then later uses fuel to burn it off into harmless gases. But: if you have engine fuelling problems it clogs up regularly and uses a lot of fuel a) getting clogged up and b) getting cleaned out.
The new VW T6 appears to suffer from this due to randomly leaky air intake system (if you have one check for intake leaks!!)

So to avoid DPF problems avoid doing anything that creates soot. That means smooth driving in appropriate gears. Euro-6 is not all bad, it's actually really good when working properly.

For me the ad-blue of the Peugeot/Citroen scores as it replaces the EGR valve. There is a rumour that adblue also destroys the exhaust system of vehicles after 80,000 miles, not convinced about that but even if it does how regularly does a camper pass 80k miles?

 

[romany]

I have to say it having had an auto trail 630 since December RUN AWAY their affordable for a reason their no good.

In 3 months it has been back to the dealer 4 times and now back to fiats 2 times first the camper side faults Truma overheating, Truma control panel failing, one side of bed falling apart,both drain pipes underneath fell off twice,window rubbers coming out from around the the frame, rear view camera intermittent failure, solar panel not charging vehicle battery.

Fiat side fault just on 280 miles went into limp mode faults cleared by RAC took to dealer who sent me to fiat as they are not a fiat registered dealer, took it to fiat dealer to be told vehicle battery knackered as its been standing flat (they say) have to wait for battery to be ordered, on the way back from fiat went into limp mode again now told the bad battery may be affecting the ERG but if tomorrow when they replace the battery it still does it then it will be a ERG replacement involving either dropping sub frame or taking engine out 5 hours labour fortunately under warranty.

As soon as thats done its going back to the dealer for a complete refund. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

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[GPW]

Sorry to hear that. ERG or EGR ?

 

[romany]

Sorry to hear that. ERG or EGR ?

Yep well spotted thats why it doesn't work i'm calling it the wrong name Exhaust Gas Re circling valve

 

[Ranger]

You could consider a fully bespoke build on a van which you spec which need not be any more expensive and could be done to your exact design. We had our own design done to a very high standard by S&L Motorhomes who managed all our requirements at a good price for such high quality work.

 

[Kannon Fodda]

I have to say it having had an auto trail 630 since December RUN AWAY their affordable for a reason their no good.

In 3 months it has been back to the dealer 4 times and now back to fiats 2 times first the camper side faults Truma overheating, Truma control panel failing, one side of bed falling apart,both drain pipes underneath fell off twice,window rubbers coming out from around the the frame, rear view camera intermittent failure, solar panel not charging vehicle battery.

Fiat side fault just on 280 miles went into limp mode faults cleared by RAC took to dealer who sent me to fiat as they are not a fiat registered dealer, took it to fiat dealer to be told vehicle battery knackered as its been standing flat (they say) have to wait for battery to be ordered, on the way back from fiat went into limp mode again now told the bad battery may be affecting the ERG but if tomorrow when they replace the battery it still does it then it will be a ERG replacement involving either dropping sub frame or taking engine out 5 hours labour fortunately under warranty.

As soon as thats done its going back to the dealer for a complete refund. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

This and other references to Auto Trails build quality on this forum isn’t inspiring confidence in something that will be costing £45k +

 

[GPW]

Exhaust Gas Re circling valve

Consider chopping it in for a Peugeot or Citroen: they are adblue, no EGR .

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[Cheshirecat57]

When I researched this I found the 150bhp engine had the same economy as the 130 but everyone and his dog said the power was far far better and more usable.

They all cost about the same for Fiat to make and I noticed that many Knaus specials were at 150 already so the trend is definitely upward and you may find it in spacials, e.g: the Knaus Platinum 5.4m Boxcar. Maybe find one and go for a testdrive or hire one to be sure as what bothers some is fine for others.

Re the OP's DPF notes above:
The DPF filter on Euro-6 engines is interesting - it catches all the soot and then later uses fuel to burn it off into harmless gases. But: if you have engine fuelling problems it clogs up regularly and uses a lot of fuel a) getting clogged up and b) getting cleaned out.
The new VW T6 appears to suffer from this due to randomly leaky air intake system (if you have one check for intake leaks!!)

So to avoid DPF problems avoid doing anything that creates soot. That means smooth driving in appropriate gears. Euro-6 is not all bad, it's actually really good when working properly.

For me the ad-blue of the Peugeot/Citroen scores as it replaces the EGR valve. There is a rumour that adblue also destroys the exhaust system of vehicles after 80,000 miles, not convinced about that but even if it does how regularly does a camper pass 80k miles?

Remember that SCR (ad blue system) has it’s issues as well

Yes, no EGR valve but:-
Dosage Valve
Ad Blue pump
Ad blue pipes and heater
Exhaust issues ( sit down before you price up an ad blue silencer)

 

[GPW]

Remember that SCR (ad blue system) has it’s issues as well

Yes, no EGR valve but:-
Dosage Valve
Ad Blue pump
Ad blue pipes and heater
Exhaust issues ( sit down before you price up an ad blue silencer)

Yes I noted above that there are anecdotes about needing a new exhaust system every 80k miles, not such an issue for a camper I thought. Used for 5k a year that's 16 years.
Do you know if the DPF is smaller for Adblue?, I only know some theory aspects - no practical details.

As to which is better IMO it all comes down to implementation, for instance VW EGRs in the T5 and T6 like to leak coolant into the gearbox and cylinders but my Peugeot and Toyota EGRs have been fine. The Fiat one seems good too.
But all EGRs gradually restrict power by blocking up the inlet manifold over time IIRC, that's the real negative - but offset by good design (bigger inlet manifolds) by good designers.

In practice there is no 'FIAT / Peugeot-Citroen' tickbox on any options list I've seen so to a large extent it is what it is, one or the other depending upon what van you choose. The EGR/Adblue argument didn't really sway me TBH in my purchase, the Peugeot being significantly cheaper is what got me interested .

The main #1 issue for a camper as we all know is not a subtle power detail in the engine, it's how many days it sits of the drive vs how many days we are in it using it

Hopefully one day engines will be continuous burn turbine hybrids driving electric systems for traction.

 

[HandyAndy]

I've driven vans all my working life. In the late 80's transits were slow, I think about 80bhp. But fast forward to the 2000s and much better.
I used to have an (06) 100bhp Vivaro work van. It wasn't under powered and pleasant to drive on the motorway. After that I had a (58)transit 115bhp, usually half full, it was fast with plenty of grunt. I remember when I picked it up empty, when you accelerated it pushed you back in the seat
Go for the 115bhp you'll be surprised

Chances are he won't be empty though, he'll be constantly fully loaded, I'd ALWAYS go for the more powerful version if I could afford to. (not withstanding the more powerful version isn't an unreliable nightmare of course)

 

[Christoph]

Had both - now have a 150 and wouldn't go back.

 

[GPW]

Having had a 110 Hp car and a 130 Hp HiAce my personal preference would be 130 or more for a van the size of the Ducato.
Bear in mind Citroen/Peugeot and Ford have different engines and their own power options that differ to Fiat.

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[Kannon Fodda]

No doubt performance varies between manufacturers. Different engines even nominally rated at the same output will have different torque profiles, and other stuff, they will also be coupled with differing ratio gearboxes, even wheel sizes. All will be affected by payload. If one size fitted all it would be easy. If money is no object, bigger engine is usually better, but no doubt also less environmentally friendly on emissions and fuel consumption.

I don't get the difference between ad-blue, EGR or whatever. To my mind If ad-blue is required, that adds a running cost so overall less MPG for diesel with ad-blue. All engines are getting more technical to deal with efficiency and emissions. We get more power for something smaller, the concern is whether eventually this will be at the expense of shorter overall engine life spans.

If anything the greater concern for many of us with mobile homes, that will have relatively low mileage, would be the behaviour of that engine with limited use. Many say the diesels take a few thousand miles to become run in. I know that I couldn't have a diesel car as the dpf filter would forever be gummed up due to the very short distances I do. Mobile home will be longish runs, but infrequent. How will the engine cope with that?

I can understand the Fiat 2.3 150bhp engine, has a couple of things bolted on to it, making it potentially more robust, and is seen by many as the sweet spot, and as a long term buy it makes sense over the life of the vehicle. The 2.0 115 is undoubtedly the economy engine, but will work. The 130 is therefore the sensible decision. But overall, from what I am seeing it comes down to driving style. The 115 and 130 engines both have a narrowish rev range where the engine is most powerful, the 150 slightly wider and it's how you adjust your driving to fit those power windows that will have the best results.

 

[GPW]

I don't get the difference between ad-blue, EGR or whatever. To my mind If ad-blue is required, that adds a running cost so overall less MPG for diesel with ad-blue.

See: https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/115bhp-or-130bhp.192592/page-2#post-3230803

Both has pros and cons, running costs will I suspect be identical in practice. Also there's never usually a choice as the van you want either has one make or another