Riddle me this.....starter battery problem solves itself.

[Russell's Dad]

Ducato 2021, 2.3 150bhp 9 speed auto Carthago i138. Smart alternator. 150w solar charging both starter and leisure batteries.
In France on an Aire in the middle of nowhere. I stopped the engine and went to get the ramps. Tried to start the engine and...click. Tried a few times, same result. Checked the solar controller app and starter battery is at 12.1v. It was a sunny day. 10 minutes later and I try again and success, the starter engages and the engine starts.
All is well for the next couple of weeks, except I check the solar app regularly and can clearly see the starter battery is getting charge from the solar and, when driving, from the smart alternator, but isn't keeping the charge. When driving the starter battery is often about 12.2-12.4v when not getting a charge from solar or the alternator ( i.e. cruising or accelerating, not engine braking or braking). It's almost as if the alternator thinks the battery is at capacity, so isn't trying to charge it all the time.
The weather was good and I was parking up mid afternoons with the voltage on switching off being 12.1 to 12.3v and 12.8 ish at night when solar charging stopped. In the mornings the engine started OK so I decided to nurse it back to the UK.

Fast forward to this morning when, after Le Shuttle and a few hours of motorway driving back in the UK I stop at services for 10 minutes and the van won't start. Click.....solar app shows 12.2v. Handily I have a lithium jump-start gizmo so I use that and the van fires up.
Off I go to Halfords for a new battery. The helpful fellow ( he really was a nice bloke) removes the old battery and checks if they have a like-for-like replacement, which they unfortunately don't. The nearest likeness is fitted, but doesn't have the same cranking power. The van won't start ( same click).
The old battery is refitted so I can jump start and try to get back to Scotland. The van starts at the first turn of the key, without the jumper pack. A check of the solar app shows the battery is now consistently getting a good charge from the alternator, even while stationary. Continued checking of the app shows the battery is now accepting charge ( dark so no solar) and the smart alternator is now doing exactly what it should do, i.e. stopping providing 14v charge when the battery is at capacity.
In short, removing the battery and then putting it back appears to have resolved the problem. The smart alternator is doing it's job, the battery is accepting and keeping the charge. Switching off the ignition on arriving at home the battery showed 12.75 rising quickly to 12.85.

My question( only to the technically profficient Fun members please) is simply this. What has happened? Was a battery "re-boot" enough to fix the problem or do I have a wiring problem such as a loose wire at the battery that has miraculously re-attached during the battery swap. If so then what wire is the likely culprit?

 

[daveandsan]

Bad earth.

 

[Andacami]

I had a similar experience on a car, it was a loose earth strap from the alternator to chassis. Similar issues can occur if a loose earth at the battery terminals.

My testing / temporary solution was to use a jump lead to make a new connection.

 

[meanders]

I agree that it may be a bad earth. If not, when it just clicked, did the dash lights dim? If they stayed fully lit, it could be the starter solenoid not connecting properly.

 

[Sue and Rick]

Loose connection is the diagnosis from this establishment.

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[Ditcha]

Ducato 2021, 2.3 150bhp 9 speed auto Carthago i138. Smart alternator. 150w solar charging both starter and leisure batteries.
In France on an Aire in the middle of nowhere. I stopped the engine and went to get the ramps. Tried to start the engine and...click. Tried a few times, same result. Checked the solar controller app and starter battery is at 12.1v. It was a sunny day. 10 minutes later and I try again and success, the starter engages and the engine starts.
All is well for the next couple of weeks, except I check the solar app regularly and can clearly see the starter battery is getting charge from the solar and, when driving, from the smart alternator, but isn't keeping the charge. When driving the starter battery is often about 12.2-12.4v when not getting a charge from solar or the alternator ( i.e. cruising or accelerating, not engine braking or braking). It's almost as if the alternator thinks the battery is at capacity, so isn't trying to charge it all the time.
The weather was good and I was parking up mid afternoons with the voltage on switching off being 12.1 to 12.3v and 12.8 ish at night when solar charging stopped. In the mornings the engine started OK so I decided to nurse it back to the UK.

Fast forward to this morning when, after Le Shuttle and a few hours of motorway driving back in the UK I stop at services for 10 minutes and the van won't start. Click.....solar app shows 12.2v. Handily I have a lithium jump-start gizmo so I use that and the van fires up.
Off I go to Halfords for a new battery. The helpful fellow ( he really was a nice bloke) removes the old battery and checks if they have a like-for-like replacement, which they unfortunately don't. The nearest likeness is fitted, but doesn't have the same cranking power. The van won't start ( same click).
The old battery is refitted so I can jump start and try to get back to Scotland. The van starts at the first turn of the key, without the jumper pack. A check of the solar app shows the battery is now consistently getting a good charge from the alternator, even while stationary. Continued checking of the app shows the battery is now accepting charge ( dark so no solar) and the smart alternator is now doing exactly what it should do, i.e. stopping providing 14v charge when the battery is at capacity.
In short, removing the battery and then putting it back appears to have resolved the problem. The smart alternator is doing it's job, the battery is accepting and keeping the charge. Switching off the ignition on arriving at home the battery showed 12.75 rising quickly to 12.85.

My question( only to the technically profficient Fun members please) is simply this. What has happened? Was a battery "re-boot" enough to fix the problem or do I have a wiring problem such as a loose wire at the battery that has miraculously re-attached during the battery swap. If so then what wire is the likely culprit?

You say you drove home when it was dark if I read your post right the reason you will see a charge to the start battery in the dark is once your lights are on this loads the smart alternator telling it to produce a charge I would check it's the same when the lights are off to see if it behaves the same if it does job done it was a bad earth.

 

[rosalan]

I have just wasted a good battery for the same reason, bad earth. It turned out to be the clamp onto the battery post. An instant fit that clamped tight giving a good reading. A thousand miles from Halfords the battery went below 11v with solar power from bright sun and only a couple of leds on at night. New battery (£200) fitted in Spain and engineer spotted poor fitting of clamp and modified plastic cover. Six weeks later we were back to a couple of leds at night. Another motorhomer had a look and the whole clamp to battery just lifted off. I could not believe it. We jammed some wire around the pole and had no problems since.

 

[dunnah01]

poor battery connection is also my guess

 

[jezport]

Could be either

 

[Lenny HB]

I go with poor battery connection a well, when the battery was refitted it had a better connection.
With the battery at 12.2v I would expect the battery to at least try to turn the engine if not start it so that also points to a bad connection.

I would recheck your battery connection and make sure they are good and solid.

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[Pausim]

Does the solar charge confuse the smart alternator? I don’t know enough to do more than suggest that if the smart alternator sees the solar charge it may not be reading the battery properly and leaving it lower than it should.

 

[ctc]

Land Rover discos were notorious for bad earth connections, a good clean could solve most electrical problems.

 

[Ditcha]

Does the solar charge confuse the smart alternator? I don’t know enough to do more than suggest that if the smart alternator sees the solar charge it may not be reading the battery properly and leaving it lower than it should.

Funny things these so called smart alternators.

 

[Russell's Dad]

I agree that it may be a bad earth. If not, when it just clicked, did the dash lights dim? If they stayed fully lit, it could be the starter solenoid not connecting properly.

Dash looked fine when ignition was on, just a click when trying to start. Same when the new battery was fitted. It started when the old battery was refitted.
I thought maybe the starter as well, so I gave it a thump. Still nothing until I jump started it.

 

[Russell's Dad]

You say you drove home when it was dark if I read your post right the reason you will see a charge to the start battery in the dark is once your lights are on this loads the smart alternator telling it to produce a charge I would check it's the same when the lights are off to see if it behaves the same if it does job done it was a bad earth.

It started to behave properly in the daylight and kept doing so in the dark.

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[Russell's Dad]

Does the solar charge confuse the smart alternator? I don’t know enough to do more than suggest that if the smart alternator sees the solar charge it may not be reading the battery properly and leaving it lower than it should.

It always worked perfectly, until it didn't

 

[Russell's Dad]

I'll have a check at the leads (especially earth) from the battery. Thanks people. I'll not be using the van very much next few weeks so I doubt I'll be able to report back for a while

 

[Silver-Fox]

It’s either a poor lead connection or

https://pin.it/5pXPPxM

 

[Russell's Dad]

It’s either a poor lead connection or

https://pin.it/5pXPPxM

Probably the latter, knowing my luck.

 

[Pausim]

Funny things these so called smart alternators.

Perhaps slightly clever would be better than smart. Trouble is they are designed to work with an engine battery alone but we link up all sorts of other kit such as leisure batteries and solar and they aren’t programmed to deal with this. I guess that is why Fiat disabled them for motorhome constructors until 2019 when the new rules stopped them.

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[Barti Ddu]

Perhaps slightly clever would be better than smart. Trouble is they are designed to work with an engine battery alone but we link up all sorts of other kit such as leisure batteries and solar and they aren’t programmed to deal with this. I guess that is why Fiat disabled them for motorhome constructors until 2019 when the new rules stopped them.

My 2021 Autotrail PVC 2.3 140hp Euro 6 has a standard alternator.

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

I am not convinced that it’s down to the difference between 12.1v and 12.8v or that jump packs or solar are making any difference (see last sentence).
If it clicks when failing but the ignition stays fully illuminated then the battery connections should be fine. Under this condition it needs testing with the headlights on to see if they dim down or not to indicate voltage drop.
To rule out a bad earth, use a single jump lead between battery negative and the engine casing or starter motor if you can get to it.
If these tests prove nothing then you need to check the starter motor battery cable connections.
I actually suspect the most likely reason is that the starter motor solenoid is going open circuit due to heat soak after you stop for a short time (this seemed consistent from your descriptions and no cold start issues mentioned) so leaving it another 20 or 30 minutes and it starts would point to this.

 

[Pausim]

My 2021 Autotrail PVC 2.3 140hp Euro 6 has a standard alternator.

That surprises me. There were some older chassis already in the supply chain when the rules changed in September 2019 but I thought the 140 engine was of the new range with AdBlue and smart alternators.

 

[Barti Ddu]

That surprises me. There were some older chassis already in the supply chain when the rules changed in September 2019 but I thought the 140 engine was of the new range with AdBlue and smart alternators.

Yes it's got AdBlu, but definitely a standard alternator. I was surprised too, but queried it on here -

2021 Autotrail PVC - smart alternator?

From comments on here I had presumed that our 2021 Ducato based PVC (2.3L 140hp, Euro 6d, but not stop-start), would have a smart alternator. I also read that one of the ways to determine if a smart alternator is fitted is to check if a shunt is fitted across the negative battery terminal...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

 

[Pausim]

Yes it's got AdBlu, but definitely a standard alternator. I was surprised too, but queried it on here -

2021 Autotrail PVC - smart alternator?

From comments on here I had presumed that our 2021 Ducato based PVC (2.3L 140hp, Euro 6d, but not stop-start), would have a smart alternator. I also read that one of the ways to determine if a smart alternator is fitted is to check if a shunt is fitted across the negative battery terminal...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

Perhaps they have repositioned the shunt or are using some other technology on the newer ones. What voltages are you getting whilst the engine is running?

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[Bolti]

Had exactly the same problem Fiat replaced alternator been right as rain since.

 

[rosalan]

These were the type of connectors that failed me

 

[Russell's Dad]

I am not convinced that it’s down to the difference between 12.1v and 12.8v or that jump packs or solar are making any difference (see last sentence).
If it clicks when failing but the ignition stays fully illuminated then the battery connections should be fine. Under this condition it needs testing with the headlights on to see if they dim down or not to indicate voltage drop.
To rule out a bad earth, use a single jump lead between battery negative and the engine casing or starter motor if you can get to it.
If these tests prove nothing then you need to check the starter motor battery cable connections.
I actually suspect the most likely reason is that the starter motor solenoid is going open circuit due to heat soak after you stop for a short time (this seemed consistent from your descriptions and no cold start issues mentioned) so leaving it another 20 or 30 minutes and it starts would point to this.

I initially thought the solenoid might be the problem ( I'd read about this) , I even thumped the starter motor with a rubber mallet to see if that fixed the problem, but it doesn't really explain why the battery didnt appear to be taking a charge from the alternator. When accelerating (i.e. when putting the engine under strain) the battery was only showing 12.1 to 12.4v, while the leisure batteries were full. Decelerating/ braking showed 13.8 -14.2v or thereabouts was getting to the battery from the alternator, similarly when the solar switched to the starter battery (PV Logic controller so it swaps from leisure to starter regularly with no way to manually control this) the voltage was there to charge but it just didn't seem to take or hold the charge.

Switching off the ignition used to cause a slight drop in voltage to show, but this quickly returned to 12.8v ish. Normally after a drive the starter battery would show as full in the app. When I had the non-starting problems the voltage dropped and didn't come back up until the solar did it's thing. The battery kept it's charge overnight as well.

The van started with a jump start, but I suppose that might have been after the solenoid had cooled.

Also, after the battery re-fit, when all seemed back to normal with charging etc, I stopped at services. The van was hot after a hundred or so motorway miles, but it started no problem.

Would the solenoid going open circuit cause the battery to discharge heavily when driving?

Could it be a mix of bad earth and solenoid???

I know that using the app to check voltage isn't scientific as it just shows what is reaching the bsttery terminsls in both directions, but the app had previously never shown a voltage of 12.1 v at the starter battery.

In saying all that, I might get the solenoid tested or replaced just as a belt and braces.

When I can, I'll post an update.

 

[Lenny HB]

These were the type of connectors that failed me View attachment 820181

Those are only fit for the bin, cheap pressed steel useless I wouldn't even use those on a leisure battery and a complete no, no on a starter battery. You need decent solid bass terminals.

 

[Lenny HB]

Does the solar charge confuse the smart alternator? I don’t know enough to do more than suggest that if the smart alternator sees the solar charge it may not be reading the battery properly and leaving it lower than it should.

I can't see it causing a problem as the solar will be connected to the other side of the B2B so effectively isolated from the alternator.

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