Will it damage old documents if I scan them? (1 Viewer)

[Spriddler]

I have my grandfather's entire naval record from Ordinary Seaman to Master of the Foretop (ships, ports, disciplinaries etc) and signed by each of his captains from 1852 to 1875 written on parchment which I'd like to scan on my HP Envoy 600 printer but concerned that the light beam might damage it.
I've considered asking at my local museum but maybe someone here can tell me?

 

[David and Sally]

I cannot think why it would damage them. Only a bit of light for a very short time.

 

[Figaro]

No I don't think the brief exposure to light will damage the medium, but might still be worth asking your local museum to get their input as they're sure to have encountered this.

 

[Peg Star]

If you have an iPhone (maybe other smart phones too?) you can scan a document the same as taking a photo. It lines up the document and will automatically take the picture when in focus without the background - results are as good as a printer scanner

 

[Gina M]

Too precious to take the risk. I would take professional advice first.

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[Brains]

If they are flat (not rolled)
Then the brief light from a scanner will do no harm

However if they are rolled or folded documents you should ask at your local museum.
(The National Maritime Museum at Greenwich would probably like a copy of the end result.)

Plus if your Grandfather was already at sea in 1852,
How old are you now ?
As a 185-190 year spread in three generations is impressive, it means each father must have been the wrong side of 62 when the baby was born.

(My sister is 100 years younger, to the day, than her grandfather)

 

[Peg Star]

If you have an iPhone (maybe other smart phones too?) you can scan a document the same as taking a photo. It lines up the document and will automatically take the picture when in focus without the background - results are as good as a printer scanner

It’s great as once you’ve discovered it you can’t stop scanning I’ve got the passports, log books, MOT certs, important letters even some receipts all nicely stored in files on phone / iMac/ cloud so can be accessed from anywhere

 

[Riverbankannie]

I have my grandfather's entire naval record from Ordinary Seaman to Master of the Foretop (ships, ports, disciplinaries etc) and signed by each of his captains from 1852 to 1875 written on parchment which I'd like to scan on my HP Envoy 600 printer but concerned that the light beam might damage it.
I've considered asking at my local museum but maybe someone here can tell me?

I was able to scan my great grandfather’s navel records at the National Archives in Kew. They were not written on parchment though, even though similar time frame. He was a Marine before they became Royal Marines.

 

[Spriddler]

Thanks all.

On second thoughts I'm rather inclined to ask the museum to advise and copy them for me as when opened up the pages are A3 size (or whatever the equivalent size was in 1852) as my printer's max is A4 so it would lose some of its appeal if copied in A4 and taped together.

However if they are rolled or folded documents you should ask at your local museum.
(The National Maritime Museum at Greenwich would probably like a copy of the end result.)

Folded and quite stiff and the creases are well set so I don't want to handle it too much.

Plus if your Grandfather was already at sea in 1852,
How old are you now ?
As a 185-190 year spread in three generations is impressive, it means each father must have been the wrong side of 62 when the baby was born.

(My sister is 100 years younger, to the day, than her grandfather)

Grandfather is shown as age 15 when he signed up but from his birth certificate he was in fact 13 and I have a copy of a document with his mother's 'Mark' (she was illiterate), falsifying his birth date and testifying that he was free from reformatory detention, rickets, fits, dropsy, pernicious anaemia, sight or hearing loss, imbecility and several other impediments.
I'm still collating the jigsaw of the exact timescales/dates but so far it seems that he married a 25 year old woman when he was around 60 (I haven't yet traced the marriage certificate) and died in 1927. My father was born in 1896. I'm 79 and my sister was 21 years younger than me. Dad was in Dad's Army (his was a 'reserved occupation') in WW2 fire watching on the South Downs (one rifle between five of them and the rounds were kept at the vicarage, a fifteen minute cycle ride away). According to my sister when my mother discovered that she was pregnant she said to my Dad: "Oh my goodness, what will the neighbours think?"
I wasn't at all welcome but that's another bit of history.

 

[Spriddler]

I was able to scan my great grandfather’s navel records at the National Archives in Kew. They were not written on parchment though, even though similar time frame. He was a Marine before they became Royal Marines.

At the archives held at Portsmouth dockyard there's a record of all the sailors taking part at Trafalgar, their injuries and pay. My g.g. grandfather on my mother's side was on Victory and received a 'Win' bonus of 2/9d.
I almost wish this research wasn't so additive as I've never done it before but I can't seem to let go now and a 'quick ten minutes' on the web turns into hours.

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[ChrisL]

I can't seem to let go now and a 'quick ten minutes' on the web turns into hours.

Welcome to the club, it's taken a long time, and i'm quite lucky as my great Grandmother descended from a historically significant family, which has a well researched history, i've managed to get back to the 9th century on some family lines, much is available online and from the trees of DNA matches but I've also spent many hours researching at the British Library, it's an absolutely brilliant place and a privilege to be allowed to handle and read books/records that are hundreds of years old.

 

[Gina M]

I would love to do it but I wouldn't know where to start

 

[meanders]

Have a work with your local County Archive. They may scan/ photograph them for you if they can have a copy. Archives are well used to dealing with very old documents, and unlike a museum are likely to have the appropriate equipment.

 

[JnJ]

You need to seek some professional advice. Not only for copying but for care and storage as they are very sensitive to environmental factors. You should only handle them with gloves on and as little as possible.

 

[meanders]

Sorry meant to say, some local authorities call them the Record or Records Office.

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[Spriddler]

You need to seek some professional advice. Not only for copying but for care and storage as they are very sensitive to environmental factors. You should only handle them with gloves on and as little as possible.

Thanks. I've had them with lots of old family docs in a heavy steel fireproof box at the bottom of a wardrobe for around 40 years and only started going through them last year.

 

[ChrisL]

I would love to do it but I wouldn't know where to start

An older cousin started me off when I was in my teens by giving me some research he'd done whilst studying history at Uni, I went on to try and check what he'd found, got a readers pass for the British Library and later joined Ancestry, uploaded my tree to it, did quite a lot of research on the findmypast website and went from there.
If you'd like to have a go, sign up to Ancestry (there are others) start building a tree with as much information as you can get from parents, aunts, uncles etc. You may find that the software will give you hints on possible antecedents, you need to check these to ensure that they relate to your antecedent and not someone else's with the same name, I did a DNA test as well (in fact several with different providers) and found loads of cousins of varying degrees some of whose trees have filled holes in mine, some where we couldn't work out how we were connected, (it turned out there was an adoption involved) some I got on so well with that we have a WhatsApp group to keep in touch with each other, (our grand mothers were siblings).

 

[Lenny HB]

I almost wish this research wasn't so additive as I've never done it before but I can't seem to let go now and a 'quick ten minutes' on the web turns into hours.

My wife has got into it spends hours every researching online & compiling huge spreadsheets of her family history.

 

[L' Hobo]

Thanks all.

On second thoughts I'm rather inclined to ask the museum to advise and copy them for me as when opened up the pages are A3 size (or whatever the equivalent size was in 1852) as my printer's max is A4 so it would lose some of its appeal if copied in A4 and taped together.


Folded and quite stiff and the creases are well set so I don't want to handle it too much.

Grandfather is shown as age 15 when he signed up but from his birth certificate he was in fact 13 and I have a copy of a document with his mother's 'Mark' (she was illiterate), falsifying his birth date and testifying that he was free from reformatory detention, rickets, fits, dropsy, pernicious anaemia, sight or hearing loss, imbecility and several other impediments.
I'm still collating the jigsaw of the exact timescales/dates but so far it seems that he married a 25 year old woman when he was around 60 (I haven't yet traced the marriage certificate) and died in 1927. My father was born in 1896. I'm 79 and my sister was 21 years younger than me. Dad was in Dad's Army (his was a 'reserved occupation') in WW2 fire watching on the South Downs (one rifle between five of them and the rounds were kept at the vicarage, a fifteen minute cycle ride away). According to my sister when my mother discovered that she was pregnant she said to my Dad: "Oh my goodness, what will the neighbours think?"
I wasn't at all welcome but that's another bit of history.

Personally, I wouldn't take the chance until you receive professional advice.
Why not photograph the documents and print the photographs?
This would be much better than too much handling of the parchment!

 

[L' Hobo]

I have my grandfather's entire naval record from Ordinary Seaman to Master of the Foretop (ships, ports, disciplinaries etc) and signed by each of his captains from 1852 to 1875 written on parchment which I'd like to scan on my HP Envoy 600 printer but concerned that the light beam might damage it.
I've considered asking at my local museum but maybe someone here can tell me?

Never heard of 'Master of Foretop' in the Royal Navy, what exactly did it involve.
Sounds like some position on a square rigger?

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[ChrisL]

Never heard of 'Master of Foretop' in the Royal Navy, what exactly did it involve.
Sounds like some position on a square rigger?

I have seen Captain of the Foretop recorded before, it would be the midshipmen (petty officer now?) In charge of the platform on the foremast from where sailors operated the sails on square rigged ships reefing etc. So he would be in charge of the sailors doing that work.

 

[L' Hobo]

I have seen Captain of the Foretop recorded before, it would be the midshipmen (petty officer now?) In charge of the platform on the foremast from where sailors operated the sails on square rigged ships reefing etc. So he would be in charge of the sailors doing that work.

Yes, when I Googled, I also read that and, of course, in those days, Midshipman was an elevated position usually taken by younger rich or influentially connected people but 'Master' seems a much more senior position?
Perhaps, that is how it is logged in the written form?

 

[Spriddler]

Well I've rummaged and found one set of docs, stiff A3 size 'ish, honey coloured parchment. It probably remained unfolded for 100+ years until I found it last year. Too large and too stiff to flatten for my A4 scanner
I really need to take a more academic/disciplined approach using templates available on the Ancestry websites as suggested by ChrisL and L' Hobo because at the moment I keep getting waylaid down rabbit holes with side streets and blind allies, ending up with an hour or two of very interesting reading but miles away from my intended objective.
Last year I created a Word document with random extracts of dates, ships names, ports and interesting snippets from docs and my memory which have no order or timeline and now I can't remember their relevance, where I found them or why I recorded them.

I have seen Captain of the Foretop recorded before, it would be the midshipmen (petty officer now?) In charge of the platform on the foremast from where sailors operated the sails on square rigged ships reefing etc. So he would be in charge of the sailors doing that work.

Yes, my memory failed me; he was Captain of the Fore Top on HMS Sultan and other ships, not Master.

Dozens of entries of ships served on, dates, ports, behaviour etc signed by the various captains.

Extract showing Cap'n of Fore Top. He was demoted a couple of times to Able Seaman (disciplinary) then reinstated.

Another doc from the National Archive..............

 

[Spriddler]

Just to add a face to the documents, when he retired from the Navy he became Brighton Beach Inspector supervising the team controlling the beaches, the shops under the prom, the fishermen, the fish market, pleasure boats, deck chair attendants, ice cream sellers (mostly Italians known locally as the Okey-Pokey men and said to keep their ice cream stock under their beds ).
I have his solid silver cap badge, truncheon and whistle.

 

[ChrisL]

Just to add a face to the documents, when he retired from the Navy he became Brighton Beach Inspector supervising the team controlling the beaches, the shops under the prom, the fishermen, the fish market, pleasure boats, deck chair attendants, ice cream sellers (mostly Italians known locally as the Okey-Pokey men and said to keep their ice cream stock under their beds ).
I have his solid silver cap badge, truncheon and whistle.
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A great collection you have their, in lieu of advice from professional archivists I would suggest that if possible you store the documents flat with tracing paper between each document as they appear to be in fairly good condition and folded documents tend to fall apart if not careful. I have a photograph of my grandparents wedding in 1908 which has fallen apart, with grandma having disappeared from it through my aunt not storing it properly, you can't get the stuff back once it's gone.

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[The Wino]

Heres a link to an article about light levels in scanning it sounds like it's very unlikely to be a problem the bigger risk to any documents if getting them flat on the scanner

Light Levels Used in Modern Flatbed Scanners

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studylib.net

I suspect a single scan would be the equivalent of exposure to daylight for a pretty short time.

In their study the highest exposure was 2500 lux for 113 seconds I think. Daylight by comparison is about 10,000 lux on a clear day. A scan would then be the equivalent of exposing the document to daylight for 25 seconds. I suspect that you exposed to documents to more light taking photos if they were done under daylight than it would be to scan them.

 

[Tonks]

I have been a volunteer at a museum for almost ten years and I regularly scan old documents of historic importance as part of the process of digitising and better logging their collection. (To make it easier, for example, to search for specific items.) The issue with scanning documents of historic interest in most cases isn't the light, it is the difficulty of not damaging the actual document, which is easier said than done when trying to scan large documents particularly, or when trying to scan items which have been fixed together in various ways, or which have long been folded or rolled and are therefore difficult to flatten sufficiently to get a good scan result. It's also important to avoid transferring dust or dirt from either the scanner or your own hands, and being careful where you lay the documents while preparing them to scan, or afterwards.

 

[pappajohn]

Wonder if gentle steaming would make opening very old folded documents easier.

 

[The Wino]

Wonder if gentle steaming would make opening very old folded documents easier.

Now that is something I'd be very wary of!

 

[CAB96]

I would love to do it but I wouldn't know where to start

HKF was offering to do an initial search for fellow Funsters?

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