Low leisure battery charge rant about British manufacturers (7 Viewers)

[Dorwyn]

Ok thanks

 

[Dorwyn]

It's only money!

 

[eddie]

It's only money!

It is worth it anyway

 

[Barti Ddu]

According to our Fiat Professional garage our Fiat Ducato (140bhp manual with adblue) was built in April 2021.
No stop start and no smart alternator fitted.

Same here. 2021 140hp manual Ducato PVC with adblu but no stop start - fitted with standard non-smart alternator.

 

[Barti Ddu]

Can you tell by simply lifting the bonnet and looking at the alternator if it’s a Smart version

Thanks Derry

Not by looking under the bonnet, but if you look at the starter battery (under the floor in the cab in a Ducato) the presence of a shunt on the negative battery terminal would indicate that a smart alternator is fitted. No shunt then standard alternator.

Also if you stick one of those usb cig lighter adapters that also give a voltage read out in the cab cig lighter socket - fluctuating voltages as you accelerate, coast, idle, etc. would indicate a smart alternator. If the voltage remains fairly constant at around 13.5v or thereabouts this suggests a standard alternator.

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[LithiumConvert]

The problem as I see it is that the usual 12V distribution/fuseboxes fitted in motorhomes need a complete re-design for a smart alternator

Alternatively just do as Hymer are doing with their newer Exsis series motorhomes.

Just ignore the connections for the split charge relay and the fridge.

Our Exsis has a Schaudt WA121545 B2B factory fitted which directly charges the leisure battery and the fridge.

Put simply the Electroblock is just a 12 volt EHU charger and distribution/fuse system.
The other connectors are empty.

 

[rwg]

You could just about understand this back in 2020/2021 when the smart alternators were new on the Fiat vans (and supply shortages meant that just about anything in stock parts wise got used to build a van). But still using a split charge system in a 2023 van with a smart alternator is pretty poor.

Given that it's a Sargent system, there is probably a fuse in the main 12V fusebox labelled 'Vehicle Battery'. Pull that fuse and at least it will solve the problem of the battery charge level dropping while driving, since you will have isolated the habitation electrics from the vehicle battery. The downside is that the vehicle battery display on the control panel will read as zero and you will be unable to switch to run from vehicle battery if needed - but you could always put the fuse back. As I have posted in another thread (https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/foru...itely-worse-than-useless.270723/#post-5244516) you can solder a resistor across a blown fuse to make the display show the vehicle battery voltage but still block charging/discharging between the two batteries.

The simplest real solution to the problem would - in theory - be to put an 'ideal diode' circuit into the cable between the vehicle battery and the leisure system. This is a small circuit that will only let the current flow one way (from the vehicle to the leisure battery) but block the return flow. It's called 'ideal' because it uses active components to simulate the behaviour of a real diode but with minimal voltage drop or power loss. You can find 50A devices relatively cheaply online... I considered doing this, but went with a B2B charger in the end. This would be a cheap option for someone competent at 12V electrics, but not a novice project I think.

cheers,

Robin

 

[The Artilleryman]

I can imagine the sales pitch, yes sir/madam/non binary etc this motorhome is £500 more than that one, but it has better equipment, allowing you to spend more time off grid and the battery has a ten year guarantee

But if your market is those who only use sites with EHU and never go off grid - and shock horror there are a lot like that - why would the customer pay an extra £500+ for something they would never use.

When we bought our Bailey 68-2 in 2018, we knew at some stage it would be a case of upgrade to LiFePO4 or accept that we would be replacing the leisure battery every 4 years or so (it got seriously abused). We chose the upgrade route after 4 years and technology has moved on and LiFePO4 batteries have come down in price.

 

[Lenny HB]

I have a new van coming hopefully in a couple of months I've budged £3,500 to upgrade the electrics it would be about £6k if I wasn't doing it myself & it's not a cheap Swift.

I'm happy with that but I don't understand why the OP is so pissed off, but I don't have much patience for people who go out and spend large sums of money and don't bother to understand what they are buying.

 

[AdrianChen]

I have a new van coming hopefully in a couple of months I've budged £3,500 to upgrade the electrics it would be about £6k if I wasn't doing it myself & it's not a cheap Swift.

I'm happy with that but I don't understand why the OP is so pissed off, but I don't have much patience for people who go out and spend large sums of money and don't bother to understand what they are buying.

Yes, the spec isn't a secret and every converter has to prioritise what can items can be included for the cost that the majority will appreciate and so buy the van.

On the bright side for you, Victron have reduced their prices while you've been waiting.....

Assuming the delivery date beats the next price increase of course.

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[Lenny HB]

On the bright side for you, Victron have reduced their prices while you've been waiting

Not gone unnoticed, and by large amounts.

 

[Riverbankannie]

If one just switches off the stop start system (which I believe you can do) then does that solve the problem of the alternator not constantly charging battery?

 

[Lenny HB]

If one just switches off the stop start system (which I believe you can do) then does that solve the problem of the alternator not constantly charging battery?

That's not the problem, with a smart alternator it never fully charges the battery, it leaves the battery low enough so it can be topped up when the engine is on overrun. So because the starter battery is always at a lowish voltage the leisure battery never gets a chance to charge unless you fit a B2B.

 

[AdrianChen]

On our car when switched off the engine stays running at junctions etc, but the alternator still only charges on overrun/braking. So stop/start is disabled, but not the "smart" alternator/battery wrecker.

Shear genius of BMW to keep the AGM starter battery in PSOC, which is the AGM's Achilles heel.

 

[the1andonly]

But if your market is those who only use sites with EHU and never go off grid - and shock horror there are a lot like that - why would the customer pay an extra £500+ for something they would never use.

you also have the scenario what is standard what is extra, 1 x12v and 1 x240v socket in hab area or 4 of each, (in addition to tv and fridge). Standard fly screens? My van came with opportunities, yes 2 110Ah batteries 120W solar but the cheapest of controllers and weediest wiring poss (could have been British). The biggest problem is buyers don't know what they want to buy (if they do they dont want to pay for it) and sellers want to sell what they've got and don't necessarily want to educate buyers. Manufacturers are just guessing. When i bought mine the sales man said "Gaslow a good idea but you don't want to be paying our prices", he gave me a quote and showed me some online pricing. By the way its a Rapido. Not upmarket at all but you can see the Euros between it and an equivalent Roller Team.

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[DerryW]

Not by looking under the bonnet, but if you look at the starter battery (under the floor in the cab in a Ducato) the presence of a shunt on the negative battery terminal would indicate that a smart alternator is fitted. No shunt then standard alternator.

Also if you stick one of those usb cig lighter adapters that also give a voltage read out in the cab cig lighter socket - fluctuating voltages as you accelerate, coast, idle, etc. would indicate a smart alternator. If the voltage remains fairly constant at around 13.5v or thereabouts this suggests a standard alternator.

Thanks Barti Ddu. Please ignore my ignorance, what’s a shunt ?

 

[Lenny HB]

Thanks Barti Ddu. Please ignore my ignorance, what’s a shunt ?

A high current very low ohm resistor and by measuring the volt drop across it you can calculate the current flowing.

 

[Lenny HB]

you also have the scenario what is standard what is extra, 1 x12v and 1 x240v socket in hab area or 4 of each, (in addition to tv and fridge). Standard fly screens? My van came with opportunities, yes 2 110Ah batteries 120W solar but the cheapest of controllers and weediest wiring poss (could have been British). The biggest problem is buyers don't know what they want to buy (if they do they dont want to pay for it) and sellers want to sell what they've got and don't necessarily want to educate buyers. Manufacturers are just guessing. When i bought mine the sales man said "Gaslow a good idea but you don't want to be paying our prices", he gave me a quote and showed me some online pricing. By the way its a Rapido. Not upmarket at all but you can see the Euros between it and an equivalent Roller Team.

The van we have on order has £17k of factory fitted options and I'm planning to fit about another £12k of bits to it. Not really possible to buy a van off the shelf if you want a decent spec.

 

[the1andonly]

The van we have on order has £17k of factory fitted options and I'm planning to fit about another £12k of bits to it. Not really possible to buy a van off the shelf if you want a decent spec.

Now if i was to accuse you of knowing what you were getting and you wanted what would the response be?
ps looking forward to Lenny improves Gin palace part 2

 

[Lenny HB]

Reasonably happy with what we are getting apart from the fact it's RHD really, really did not want that but at our age we didn't want to wait another year or want the price increases.

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[Barti Ddu]

Thanks Barti Ddu. Please ignore my ignorance, what’s a shunt ?

The link below is the negative battery terminal on my 2021 Ducato with a standard alternator. See - nothing fitted at all to it. If you have another device fitted to the terminal it's most likely a shunt used in conjunction with a smart alternator. Take a picture of yours, post it on here and someone will be able to confirm.

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/attachments/img_20220206_123037-jpg.582983/

 

[Bustup15]

I have a new van coming hopefully in a couple of months I've budged £3,500 to upgrade the electrics it would be about £6k if I wasn't doing it myself & it's not a cheap Swift.

I'm happy with that but I don't understand why the OP is so pissed off, but I don't have much patience for people who go out and spend large sums of money and don't bother to understand what they are buying.

That's a bit harsh Lenny HB
When someone is buying a new to them scenario they are entering the unknown. How do they know not to trust the info provided by the dealer/manufacturer?

Once you have bitten the bullet for the first time and gone on to spend significant additional sums that were unbudgeted for, often as advised by more experienced like yourself, then you realise the market is effectively corrupt. By that I mean selling a product that is not fit for purpose.

I'm not sure where other unregulated market places such as the motorhome dealer markets still exist?

And yes I've had a drink.

 

[Lenny HB]

That's a bit harsh @Lenny HB
When someone is buying a new to them scenario they are entering the unknown. How do they know not to trust the info provided by the dealer/manufacturer?

I don't think so when I bought my first Motorhome I knew exactly what I was buying and I fully investigated it.

 

[DerryW]

The link below is the negative battery terminal on my 2021 Ducato with a standard alternator. See - nothing fitted at all to it. If you have another device fitted to the terminal it's most likely a shunt used in conjunction with a smart alternator. Take a picture of yours, post it on here and someone will be able to confirm.

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/attachments/img_20220206_123037-jpg.582983/

Thanks once again Barti I’ll do exactly as you suggest, but unfortunately it won’t be until late tomorrow or even first thing Monday has we’re out all day tomorrow. Once again thanks for your response and patience.
Derry

 

[Spriddler]

When someone is buying a new to them scenario they are entering the unknown. How do they know not to trust the info provided by the dealer/manufacturer?

I'm sure there's an element of new owners not being aware of what they don't know or of what questions to ask.
I was auto apprenticed and had been restoring classic cars for 30 years when I bought my first m/home so was well able to assess the mechanicals but I knew nothing about a leisure battery's function, split charge relays, 3 way fridges, solar panels, payload, water heaters, axle weights, tap micro-switches etc. and relied upon the dealer's advice and the manufacturer's specification. Now that I've had m/homes for 40 years I can well understand the vulnerability of first-time buyers. Experience is something you only get after you need it.

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[autorouter]

The link below is the negative battery terminal on my 2021 Ducato with a standard alternator. See - nothing fitted at all to it. If you have another device fitted to the terminal it's most likely a shunt used in conjunction with a smart alternator. Take a picture of yours, post it on here and someone will be able to confirm.

I think the some of the standard alternator vans have an isolator relay fitted on the negative terminal, which looks like a small black plastic cubic box with a squiggly diagram on it. The smart alternators also have that same isolator relay, and the shunt is a piece of straight metal to one side of the black plastic box. Actually, the metal shunt is very similar in appearance to the connector bar on your negative terminal. So I think you're right to ask for a picture to confirm exactly what is there.

 

[LithiumConvert]

That's not the problem, with a smart alternator it never fully charges the battery, it leaves the battery low enough so it can be topped up when the engine is on overrun. So because the starter battery is always at a lowish voltage the leisure battery never gets a chance to charge unless you fit a B2B.

Correct, but the one B2B is only half of the solution. (it only properly charges the leisure battery)

We also need something to properly charge the starter battery. In my case, I use another (lower power) B2B to properly charge the starter battery - from the leisure battery. Then I always arrive on site with both batteries properly charged. (and the starter battery then permanenly maintained at full charge)

 

[ManTheVan]

Hi the Battery Master is a long term engine battery charging device.

It will not charge the leisure battery, ever, and it operates when the voltage difference is circa 0.8 VDC

It in no way replaces any split charger or Battery 2 Battery charger

But it is a brilliant bit of kit that prevents your starter battery from being killed off by current drain from alarm systems, etc. Thanks for inventing it!

If you have solar charging and the panel is exposed to light, then with a battery master, starter battery worries are a thing of the past.

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

The van we have on order has £17k of factory fitted options and I'm planning to fit about another £12k of bits to it. Not really possible to buy a van off the shelf if you want a decent spec.

If you are retro fitting further additions yourself, how does that effect your warranty, if I may ask?
Or are they being fitted by an official authorised dealer network?

 

[Lenny HB]

If you are retro fitting further additions yourself, how does that effect your warranty, if I may ask?
Or are they being fitted by an official authorised dealer network?

Will be doing it myself like most people do. Don't see how it can affect warranty unless a fault was caused by something I did. Not worth worrying about.

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