How long will they be using the 9-speed autos on Fiats (1 Viewer)

[Saucer]

Peter Vaughan has said that they are phasing these out for motorhome manufacturers, at least as I understand it. I think there has been discussion on here about a newer (?inferior) 8 speed auto on the way. We may not be ready to buy until next year when we may buy new. Do people think they will still be selling the 9-speed auto on new vans then? I thought some of you good (and well informed) people might know.
Thanks

 

[Orion]

I've been reading this thread and noted most peoples view of the 9 speed auto is positive and that they wouldn't go back to a manual. I have a 180hp 9 speed Fiat based A class with 3500 miles on the clock. I've never been that happy with the gearbox especially coming off roundabouts. I drive in Normal mode pretty much all the time. Seems D5 has the deficiency. I have yet to try it in manual mode. Maybe it's that the engine needs some more loosening up, or perhaps I don't drive it correctly (our first auto box on any vehicle). I shall give it a few thousand more miles when in France latter this year before I seek the dealers comments (they are Fiat Professional people)! At the moment I would happily go back to my previous 6 speed manual.

At 3500 miles both the engine and gearbox still have some way to go before they get to best performance - 5-10k should see an improvement, it did with ours.

Try using the PWR setting for a more immediate throttle and gearbox response in those situations but still with the benefits of the automatic gear changes.

 

[catjuggler]

You may not be going fast enough or have enough revs to go to 9th.

I stand corrected. Just checked I do have the 9 speed box

 

[Lenny HB]

Maybe it's that the engine needs some more loosening up,

At 3500 miles both the engine and gearbox still have some way to go before they get to best performance - 5-10k should see an improvement, it did with ours.

Fiat don't consider the engine to be run in until it's done 15000 miles and the software is set up for a run in engine.

 

[stevec]

Fiat don't consider the engine to be run in until it's done 15000 miles and the software is set up for a run in engine.

Guess I'll have to wait a bit then! Until then I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. Assuming of course that I get my C1 back sometime in the next year (applied a few weeks ago with health issues).

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[Guigsy]

I've been reading this thread and noted most peoples view of the 9 speed auto is positive and that they wouldn't go back to a manual. I have a 180hp 9 speed Fiat based A class with 3500 miles on the clock. I've never been that happy with the gearbox especially coming off roundabouts. I drive in Normal mode pretty much all the time. Seems D5 has the deficiency. I have yet to try it in manual mode. Maybe it's that the engine needs some more loosening up, or perhaps I don't drive it correctly (our first auto box on any vehicle). I shall give it a few thousand more miles when in France latter this year before I seek the dealers comments (they are Fiat Professional people)! At the moment I would happily go back to my previous 6 speed manual.

On the manual, I find there's a large gap between 3rd and 4th. And generally the gearing is a bit too high.

 

[Scotch mist]

My 5speed manual is fine Some of you must have more money than sense

Some of us have more sense so we have earned more money

 

[andyelbac]

As a general point (and something I didn't know), in the FIAT manual for our 22 plate MH, it advises against holding the automatic in drive if stopped for a prolonged period (i.e. drop it in nuetral). By coincidence, I read an article this morning by an expert on automatics, essentially advising the same thing. The same article also advised against driving into deep water with an automatic due to the risk of water entering vent holes (?), although this would seem sensible whether driving an auto or manual! The Fiat manual also states "Sequential Driving Mode-Autostick: In the case of frequent gear shifting (e.g. when the vehicle is driven with a heavy load, on slopes, with strong headwind or when towing heavy trailers), it is recommended to use the Autostick (sequential shifting) Mode to select and keep a lower fixed ratio. In these conditions, using a lower gear improves vehicle performance and prolongs the life of the transmission, limiting gear shifting and preventing overheating."

I might far and away prefer an automatic over a manual but in reality I know very little about how gears work (other than the most rudimentary basics) so it demonstrates how useful it can be to just READ THE DAMN MANUAL! (something us guys seem genetically programmed not to do)

 

[MichaelT]

As a general point (and something I didn't know), in the FIAT manual for our 22 plate MH, it advises against holding the automatic in drive if stopped for a prolonged period (i.e. drop it in nuetral). By coincidence, I read an article this morning by an expert on automatics, essentially advising the same thing. The same article also advised against driving into deep water with an automatic due to the risk of water entering vent holes (?), although this would seem sensible whether driving an auto or manual! The Fiat manual also states "Sequential Driving Mode-Autostick: In the case of frequent gear shifting (e.g. when the vehicle is driven with a heavy load, on slopes, with strong headwind or when towing heavy trailers), it is recommended to use the Autostick (sequential shifting) Mode to select and keep a lower fixed ratio. In these conditions, using a lower gear improves vehicle performance and prolongs the life of the transmission, limiting gear shifting and preventing overheating."

I might far and away prefer an automatic over a manual but in reality I know very little about how gears work (other than the most rudimentary basics) so it demonstrates how useful it can be to just READ THE DAMN MANUAL! (something us guys seem genetically programmed not to do)

We always pop ours (Comformatic) to neutral when stationary for any time. Also on hills always use the UP button. Have never intentionally used Manual mode.

 

[PlymBob]

I’ll repost my reply to a similar query in another ‘9 speed auto’ thread:



Yes, can go all the way to 9th using the manual feature with mine.



Had a chance to do this earlier today with a 100+ mile run up from Seville on the Autovia Ruta de La Plata (A-66). It’s a dual carriageway running over some quite hilly terrain, so gave the auto box a good work out with the cruise control on as it dropped into 6th on a few of the inclines.

This is a Ducato 2.2 160bhp and the CC was at a constant 95kph, so enough to keep ahead of the HGVs but still return decent economy. The ECO gear/throttle function was selected. Analogue dials but near enough to these figures:

6th gear 2500rpm
7th gear 2200rpm
8th gear 1800rpm
9th gear 1500rpm

The trip reading showed 33.6 mpg.

If you're in Cruise Control I'm not sure that ECO makes any difference. If you "Resume" out of a roundabout it still accelerates and changes gear quite briskly. I have the same Ducato 2.2 160.

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[Guigsy]

As a general point (and something I didn't know), in the FIAT manual for our 22 plate MH, it advises against holding the automatic in drive if stopped for a prolonged period (i.e. drop it in nuetral). By coincidence, I read an article this morning by an expert on automatics, essentially advising the same thing. The same article also advised against driving into deep water with an automatic due to the risk of water entering vent holes (?), although this would seem sensible whether driving an auto or manual! The Fiat manual also states "Sequential Driving Mode-Autostick: In the case of frequent gear shifting (e.g. when the vehicle is driven with a heavy load, on slopes, with strong headwind or when towing heavy trailers), it is recommended to use the Autostick (sequential shifting) Mode to select and keep a lower fixed ratio. In these conditions, using a lower gear improves vehicle performance and prolongs the life of the transmission, limiting gear shifting and preventing overheating."

I might far and away prefer an automatic over a manual but in reality I know very little about how gears work (other than the most rudimentary basics) so it demonstrates how useful it can be to just READ THE DAMN MANUAL! (something us guys seem genetically programmed not to do)

When you sit stationary in drive with an auto, the torque converter is sloshing away and slowly heating up the transmission fluid. All the torque is just turned to heat. They are designed to cope with heavy traffic. I wouldn't worry about it unless you're literally stood there for ten minutes multiple times. And stop-start would also keep the temperature down.

 

[JustifiedAncient]

Interesting discussion regarding the different autoboxes.

I will be very impressed when they go to 11, it will be one faster!

Especially fitted to the Spinal Tap tour bus!

 

[Orion]

If you're in Cruise Control I'm not sure that ECO makes any difference. If you "Resume" out of a roundabout it still accelerates and changes gear quite briskly. I have the same Ducato 2.2 160.

I think you might have meant to include a different post from me, although I made no mention of throttle/gear response in CC?

In the other post I suggested that stevec try the PWR mode for a better getaway from roundabouts etc. but no mention of using CC.

 

[PlymBob]

I think you might have meant to include a different post from me, although I made no mention of throttle/gear response in CC?

In the other post I suggested that stevec try the PWR mode for a better getaway from roundabouts etc. but no mention of using CC.

Apologies if I mis-read your post, it appeared to say "so gave the auto box a good work out with the cruise control on as it dropped into 6th on a few of the inclines. This is a Ducato 2.2 160bhp and the CC was at a constant 95kph, so enough to keep ahead of the HGVs but still return decent economy. The ECO gear/throttle function was selected."

But I still find that when in CC whether ECO or Normal doesn't appear to make any difference. Though when out of CC, ECO definitely slows down engine (throttle/gear?) response.

 

[Guigsy]

Apologies if I mis-read your post, it appeared to say "so gave the auto box a good work out with the cruise control on as it dropped into 6th on a few of the inclines. This is a Ducato 2.2 160bhp and the CC was at a constant 95kph, so enough to keep ahead of the HGVs but still return decent economy. The ECO gear/throttle function was selected."

But I still find that when in CC whether ECO or Normal doesn't appear to make any difference. Though when out of CC, ECO definitely slows down engine (throttle/gear?) response.

Drive mode affects throttle response and maximum available torque. If you're sticking to a constant speed, like with cruise control, it won't make much, if any difference.

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[PlymBob]

Drive mode affects throttle response and maximum available torque. If you're sticking to a constant speed, like with cruise control, it won't make much, if any difference.

What about if you have it set to a constant speed, cancel (or brake) when approaching a roundabout, and press resume on the cruise control when leaving the roundabout to let the cruise control accelerate from, say, 30mph back to a constant speed of, say, 60mph?

 

[Guigsy]

What about if you have it set to a constant speed, cancel (or brake) when approaching a roundabout, and press resume on the cruise control when leaving the roundabout to let the cruise control accelerate from, say, 30mph back to a constant speed of, say, 60mph?

Cruise is probably never going to ask for full throttle and maximum torque, so it probably behaves very similarly.

 

[PlymBob]

Cruise is probably never going to ask for full throttle and maximum torque, so it probably behaves very similarly.

Quite so, although it still seems to accelerate briskly, and change gear briskly, when in ECO CC rather than ECO without CC...

 

[Guigsy]

Quite so, although it still seems to accelerate briskly, and change gear briskly, when in ECO CC rather than ECO without CC...

I wouldn't be surprised if you're right and CC has it's own drive mode that's very similar to normal.

I used to have a car with a ZF 8HP auto box that would coast in eco mode. So going down a hill, the revs would drop up idle. But it never did it when cruise control was on.

 

[Orion]

Quite so, although it still seems to accelerate briskly, and change gear briskly, when in ECO CC rather than ECO without CC...

I wouldn't be surprised if you're right and CC has it's own drive mode that's very similar to normal.

I used to have a car with a ZF 8HP auto box that would coast in eco mode. So going down a hill, the revs would drop up idle. But it never did it when cruise control was on.

I think you’re both spot on with those observations - or very nearly for the second one!

Pressing the ‘Resume’ button on the CC, even when in ECO mode’ does provoke a more ‘spirited’ throttle and gear change response than ECO would when not in CC.

I’ve clicked through the settings when in CC and it does display the minimum fuel consumption figure (99.9mpg IIRC) when coasting on even slight downhills, but nowhere nearly as often as when driving without CC and being able to ‘feather’ the accelerator manually - which is pretty obvious thinking about it!

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[Pausim]

I wouldn't be surprised if you're right and CC has it's own drive mode that's very similar to normal.

I used to have a car with a ZF 8HP auto box that would coast in eco mode. So going down a hill, the revs would drop up idle. But it never did it when cruise control was on.

I can’t see coasting (neutral) working with a smart alternator. This is when it should be recovering energy using the momentum of the vehicle to push the alternator at maximum output.

 

[Orion]

I can’t see coasting (neutral) working with a smart alternator. This is when it should be recovering energy using the momentum of the vehicle to push the alternator at maximum output.

The auto ‘box isn’t in ‘neutral’ it’s still in whatever gear it’s selected but the engine isn’t pulling, so the alternator is still being driven.

 

[Guigsy]

The auto ‘box isn’t in ‘neutral’ it’s still in whatever gear it’s selected but the engine isn’t pulling, so the alternator is still being driven.

The car I had, it literally freewheeled in eco mode. It was like the auto box was dipping the clutch. But it was a 3 litre turbo petrol engine, so maybe that was more economical? It was disconcerting.

 

[Pausim]

The auto ‘box isn’t in ‘neutral’ it’s still in whatever gear it’s selected but the engine isn’t pulling, so the alternator is still being driven.

That is what I would expect but Guigsy ’s post suggests this is not always the case. This would be overrun when the engine is being pushed by the vehicles momentum rather than coasting where there is a disconnect.

 

[PlymBob]

That is what I would expect but Guigsy ’s post suggests this is not always the case. This would be overrun when the engine is being pushed by the vehicles momentum rather than coasting where there is a disconnect.

I've been surprised by the "coasting" effect. Particularly when pressing "Cancel" on cruise control 4 or 500 metres before a roundabout.

As a long time (50 year) user of automatic cars I would expect a degree of overrun. Yet the Ducato does seem to be more or less free wheeling. Must check the rev counter next time.

The other surprise is the sophistication of automatic decision for engine braking downhill. Not perfect in every case, but surprisingly good. In my last auto car I would generally select manual on a steep or long downhill. The 9 speed Ducato generally manages the right decision on its own. It makes me think I made the right decision to get it.

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[Orion]

I've been surprised by the "coasting" effect. Particularly when pressing "Cancel" on cruise control 4 or 500 metres before a roundabout.

As a long time (50 year) user of automatic cars I would expect a degree of overrun. Yet the Ducato does seem to be more or less free wheeling. Must check the rev counter next time.

The other surprise is the sophistication of automatic decision for engine braking downhill. Not perfect in every case, but surprisingly good. In my last auto car I would generally select manual on a steep or long downhill. The 9 speed Ducato generally manages the right decision on its own. It makes me think I made the right decision to get it.

When I was keeping note of the gear to revs relationship as in post #29 above, and also flicking through the other information on the digital display, I did notice that even when ‘coasting’ and the fuel economy showing maximum, the gear indicator remained the same and the revs were where I would have expected them given the speed.

Totally agree about engine braking downhill. We’ve been up and down some seriously steep climbs in the Alps and elsewhere during the past 18 months, and it’s been a pleasure to drive it. As you say, it’s uncanny how well it selects or holds a gear on steep descents, which makes it very easy on the brakes.

 

[Guigsy]

When I was keeping note of the gear to revs relationship as in post #29 above, and also flicking through the other information on the digital display, I did notice that even when ‘coasting’ and the fuel economy showing maximum, the gear indicator remained the same and the revs were where I would have expected them given the speed.

Totally agree about engine braking downhill. We’ve been up and down some seriously steep climbs in the Alps and elsewhere during the past 18 months, and it’s been a pleasure to drive it. As you say, it’s uncanny how well it selects or holds a gear on steep descents, which makes it very easy on the brakes.

To be clear, my coasting was in a petrol BMW with a ZF 8 speed. Not a Ducato with the completely different ZF 9 speed. I don't think the Ducato does coast.

BMW Australia

faq.bmw.com.au

 

[Orion]

To be clear, my coasting was in a petrol BMW with a ZF 8 speed. Not a Ducato with the completely different ZF 9 speed. I don't think the Ducato does coast.

BMW Australia

faq.bmw.com.au

Neither do I.

 

[Bleau’s]

The only manual I have driven in the last 20 years was a defender and recently changed from a comformatic box to a new auto box which is brilliant

 

[Pausim]

The only manual I have driven in the last 20 years was a defender and recently changed from a comformatic box to a new auto box which is brilliant

I change from Comfortmatic to 9 Speed next Tuesday. Looking forward to the new driving experience, though I have to say the Comfortmatic was better than I expected.

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[stevec]

I was out in the MH this week. I tried resetting the cruise control back to the previous setting (56) on coming out of a roundabout and it pulled like a train changing gear at about 2500rpm. Totally different to my experience with manual control. Maybe I don’t have a heavy enough right foot!