Fiat suggesting new DPF because P401 - why? (1 Viewer)

[Jane And Rog]

the1andonly thanks for the detail - and your help on FiatForums - I will try the ios version of mutiecuscan with my existing Bluetooth ODB scanner. The SW isn’t a problem it’s buying and carrying a pc laptop just for this in our Apple infested van that gives me pause

The van is back from Fiat and on the driveway so we’ll hopefully get it done today or over the weekend if we need a new ODB scanner.

One thing I haven’t mentioned so far was the van lost a lot of power on the way back from Canterbury a couple of times. It felt like much less power than limp mode. Ignition off and on and it recovered…

Update.: iOS multiecuacan wont record and export CSV so we need a pc or parallels or some such.

 

[Jane And Rog]

Is the exhaust clean or sooty.

Sooty

 

[Jane And Rog]

We'll try running the software on WINE on our Macs first as reports are that that works and saves us the massive cost of a Windows Pro licence to run on Parallels. (It won't run Windows Home for some Microsoft greed reason.) I wish Windows was free like MacOS.

 

[Jane And Rog]

Sorry to keep spamming this thread, but it might be helpful for others. With the fantastic help of everyone on this thread, we've moved from a position of total panic and feelings of technical incompetence to an idea that we can master this! We're software engineers after all, so we just needed a kick to take more responsibility for this ourselves.

I've gathered all the info you've given us into one list for Fiat and us to check out. Would be grateful for a quick read through and let me know if I've missed anything?

Checklist for Fiat Repair

Check/confirm the ECU version
Should be 28 or more for a manual

Does the DPF differential pressure increase with revs?
A high reading (that increases with RPM) suggests blocked
A very low reading that doesn't change much with RPM suggests it could be fractured internally.
Non changing numbers or weird numbers, or not following RPM could suggest sensors.
What is an acceptable figure for DPF Differential Pressure (measured in mbar)? The answer is as little as possible. But if it flatlines at zero its dead.
Adding back pressure will make the engine work harder, and use more fuel to deliver the same power.
<20 Brilliant DPF causing almost no restriction
20-99 Good result and typical of a DPF in good working order
100-250 DPF causing up to 0.25 BAR of pressure – needs investigation
250-500 Serious restriction probably not allowing car to do a Forced Regen
500-1000 Performance loss very marked at this level
1000 Car can’t pull the proverbial skin off a rice pudding. All your boost is stuck in the DPF
these are under load 2000rm

Incorrect MAP sensor
Check part number is correct as some vans were installed with incorrect ones. There are recorded instances from FF members of incorrect MAP sensors fitted at factory and incorrect injector numbers entered into ECU.

Could the LPEGR cooler need replacing too?
The problem is basicaly too much shit in the DPF and LPegr system Blocked Cooler primarily as a result of poor ecu programming dealing with over fueling/ poor air control
The Problem generaly shows itself as a P0401 codes (sometimes with other codes). There is a "tea strainer"in the LPEGR cooler that get blocked, there is also a reduction in the temperature attained. The worst outcome can also be a cracked DPF. In its simplest incarnation it can be solved by Change of LPEGRcooler (8 hours Fiat time) and change of MAP sensor (counter intuitive and counter Fiat reccomendations).

DPF pressure sensors replaced?
However, 100mb at idle is too high and suggests blocked, (it's not so high that it indicates iffy sensors).

Are the injectors overfuelling? (Fiat say they are)
The overfuelling with this injector can cause build up on the tips giving wider injector variances.The Fiat spec is +-2 mine and poor ones can be +-4. In comparison my VAG 1.6 is +-0.5. Hence regular dosing with injector cleaner.

Need a new catalytic converter?
Manufacturing defects. Johnson Mathey makes catalytic convertors and other precious metal products. JM designed the new type of DOC and DPF used in the new twin egr DPF. With my experiance of process engineering in coating ceramics i can easily understand batch related issues in the early production life.


Get service notes (or at least date)
The service notes they are working to is attached (J - dated 20/11/2019). if they are working to a later one please try and get a copy even paper of anything they plan to do and part nos if poss.


Remember the slider is not closing from the inside!
Feels quite trivial now!

-----------------

Tasks for us

• Get MultiECUscan working even if we have to buy a Windows PC, check pressure under load
• Buy & use injector cleaner and diesel additive
• Carry replacement MAP and DPF sensors
• Keep the old DPF to clean & keep as spare if not cracked?
• Spare cooler in shed?

 

[Jane And Rog]

So I managed to get Multecuscan working on my MacBook - it's pretty easy. It was also a real blast from the past. Jane and I met at work building software to run Windows apps on Unix. I'm using Wine which might even contain some of Jane's code

Whatever, Multiecuscan doesn't like my ODB WiFi port so I've ebayed a new pre-modified one.

One minor piece of information I did manage to gather is that the exhaust is very sooty.

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[the1andonly]

Jane And Rog Glad to hear your one step closer with MES. Cheap obd interfaces are not upto it. having said that I bought (usb) one for 13 quid from ebay (the main point is it said it was specificaly suitable for multiecuscan). Looking at the soot load ( thats not minor information) i'll be very surprised if the DPF is not cracked and LPEGRcooler blocked. looking at above post you can see that there are a number of possible contributary factors. Good luck.

ps when/ if you think youve finaly get MES sorted could you post or send me details on precisely how you did it inc hardware/ software as i am feed up of saying dont bother trying the most knowledge i have related to apple is Cox's, Bramleys and Granny Smiths.

 

[activecampers]

Jane And Rog Glad to hear your one step closer with MES. Cheap obd interfaces are not upto it. having said that I bought (usb) one for 13 quid from ebay (the main point is it said it was specificaly suitable for multiecuscan). Looking at the soot load ( thats not minor information) i'll be very surprised if the DPF is not cracked and LPEGRcooler blocked. looking at above post you can see that there are a number of possible contributary factors. Good luck.

This

You can get a surface pro tablet/laptop for £150 and run W11 on it etc. We have one (with MES) and 2x surface laptops (£225) - ebay refub though "as knew" is a better description. They are often in the ebay 20% code deals. 12v chargers are a tenner. Ideal.

 

[Jane And Rog]

Jane And Rog Glad to hear your one step closer with MES. Cheap obd interfaces are not upto it. having said that I bought (usb) one for 13 quid from ebay (the main point is it said it was specificaly suitable for multiecuscan). Looking at the soot load ( thats not minor information) i'll be very surprised if the DPF is not cracked and LPEGRcooler blocked. looking at above post you can see that there are a number of possible contributary factors. Good luck.

ps when/ if you think youve finaly get MES sorted could you post or send me details on precisely how you did it inc hardware/ software as i am feed up of saying dont bother trying the most knowledge i have related to apple is Cox's, Bramleys and Granny Smiths.

Will do. The software is now running on the Mac under the WINE emulator, though I know Rog will have more to say on that. His remark to me was "This really is a blast from the past. IT uses AT commands to talk to the interface:
COMMAND: ATZ
RESPONSE: TZ"

 

[the1andonly]

Would getting the idling DPF pressure in mBar be a true reading of whether the DPF is working?

No it is a tad more complex. My way of assesing the DPF is to monitor the Regen cycle and the particulate filter clogging value. (note the change in the graph about half way was due to me finishing a high speed motorway run and saving the data in 2 halves.) The Differential sensor value (second graph) does reduce after regen but is not a simple relationship.
I repeat a table posted earlier.
The percentage DPF mass value value as reported by diagnostics is misleading.
The reported states are:

• between 0% and 30% (Particulate filter status: NOT CLOGGED)
• between 30% and 120% (NORMAL CLOGGING)
• between 120% and 200% (FILTER CLOGGED)
• > 200% (TO BE REGENERATED)

Has anyone suggested replacing the DPF pressure sensor(s)? I did this and it resolved all my issues.

Cheers
Red.

Each version of the Ducato has had it signature problem. The X250 was "famous" for eating differential DPF pressure sensors for various reasons. (which is why I carry a spare). Its location is low down somewhere near wheel arch and suffers from condensation. the X290 has its located high up on the firewall just right of centre. I have not heard of a single x290 differential DPF pressure sensor issue (that should bring them out of the woodwork! note just remembered in early days there was a supply issue and an alternative sensor was used and a short period of grief).

 

[the1andonly]

My plan of action will be regular monitoring using Multiecuscan. and regular addition of diesel additives (current favourite Liqui Moly Diesel purge and millers eco) and monitoring of the exhaust pipe (these should be spotless no soot). (I all ready have a replacement MAP and DPF sensor in the glovebox) and cooler in the shed. There are recorded instances from FF members of incorrect MAF sensors fitted at factory and incorrect injector numbers entered into ECU. The FIAT responce has varied dramaticaly across europe.

just noticed an error too late to edit
Incorrect MAP not MAF sensor

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[Jane And Rog]

Running multiecuscan on the Mac is so near:

and yet, so far:

I'll keep trying. This is with a USB ODB Adapter so I think I need to find a WiFi adapter that works with Multiecuscan.

Also I need to decode the rather confusing Fiat model numbers to get the right ECU etc.

the1andonly at least it does read the firmware version before it crashes (actually after it crashes but it soon gets ejected after this point).

 

[Fat Albert]

I have a 2019 Ducato 150 2.3 and I had errors until I found the right selection, which was Ducato (Type290) 2.3 Multijet. I didn't have any problems with that selection. Haven't used it in anger only playing with a new toy.

 

[the1andonly]

this guide is set up for your model.
ps i wrote it.

Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.

This was originally written to help one person with his Ducato totally new to MES to start saving data. it is not an exhaustive manual nor intended to be. Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis. Open...

www.fiatforum.com

so any problems just ask.

 

[Jane And Rog]

Does multiecuscan crash if the model selection is wrong? My interpretation of this is that getting the model and config isn't the problem - or not the immediate problem. I have multiecuscan running on the Mac - and connecting to the ODB/ECU (i.e. first image) it reads enough data to tell me the ECU isn't what I told it to expect but it crashes almost immediately (second image).

I suspect it's something to do with serial port emulation in Wine because multiecuscan crashes in a similar way when I test the interface but it will talk to my WiFi ODB Port although only enough to say "this thing isn't working for me sorry".

I'm trying to get hold of a WiFi ELM 237 to test further. I will also try your setup with my USB ELM 237.

 

[Fat Albert]

I was using the MES with a pc plugged directly into the ODB and it took me a frustrating hour to realise it was operated error. Once I had selected the correct vehicle type it worked without iso errors.

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[rwg]

If you have enough space free on your Mac (40-60Gb?), you could download Virtualbox (https://www.virtualbox.org/ - free virtual machine software) and a Windows install ISO from Microsoft, then install a virtual version of Windows inside VirtualBox. I suspect that MES will behave better in that environment. You will have to make some minor tweaks in VirtualBox to connect the USB device to the guest WIndows operating system rather than the host MacOS.

cheers,

Robin

 

[Jane And Rog]

Fat Albert was the error you saw like the second screenshot I showed (“application error”) or the first (“invalid ISO code”)?

rwg i have parallels trial and mes running in that (I stopped short of the USB config though). I’d prefer not to use a windows license because of the cost. I could buy a cheap PC with OEM windows installed for less

 

[rwg]

Jane And Rog - no need for a windows license - you can run Windows for a short period with no license key and no bad effects - when you install, just tell it you don't have a license key. After a while it starts getting snotty with you with repeated warnings that 'you might be the victim of software counterfeiting' or similar, but you could just wipe the virtual machine and start again at that point.

cheers,

Robin

 

[Fat Albert]

I can’t recall that message but the van is on the drive so I’ll have a play and send you my results.

 

[Jane And Rog]

rwg as a sw engineer, I have a hardline policy about sw piracy. Even towards Microsoft. It’s annoying because MS and others don’t seem to believe people like me exist :-(

That said, your comment made me realise I’m conflating two problems. I can use Parallels/VB and Windows trial period to get initial readings. I just need a full working version after the Fiat work and for ongoing monitoring.

Edit: maybe if I’m just ignoring a nag that’s not stealing

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[the1andonly]

Does multiecuscan crash if the model selection is wrong? My interpretation of this is that getting the model and config isn't the problem - or not the immediate problem. I have multiecuscan running on the Mac - and connecting to the ODB/ECU (i.e. first image) it reads enough data to tell me the ECU isn't what I told it to expect but it crashes almost immediately (second image).

multiecuscan doesnt crash if the model selection is wrong, just throws up invalid ISO error message.
As an almost pointless note. in past i was unable to make Wine work on Linux with MES. But i'm no software engineer. Theres a long que of people waiting for you to sort this.

 

[Fat Albert]

Just finished playing with the MultiEcuScan and I didn't get any errors. However, before plugging the MES into my Win 11 laptop and switching on the ignition, I refreshed the brain first by reading the comprehensive PDF file, only to page 6 or 7. My initial problem was not reading the said PDF file and received an ISO error like your first screen shot. I then sorted out the MES USB driver parameters as per the manual and after that no problems. Today I tried all versions of the Fiat Ducato X250 and X290 and I couldn't get it to fall over, read the modules no problem. I did have a battery charger hooked up to the connections in the eng bay so I didn't encounter any low voltage issues. Maybe me being a bit OCD .

 

[the1andonly]

Just finished playing with the MultiEcuScan and I didn't get any errors. However, before plugging the MES into my Win 11 laptop and switching on the ignition, I refreshed the brain first by reading the comprehensive PDF file, only to page 6 or 7. My initial problem was not reading the said PDF file and received an ISO error like your first screen shot. I then sorted out the MES USB driver parameters as per the manual and after that no problems. Today I tried all versions of the Fiat Ducato X250 and X290 and I couldn't get it to fall over, read the modules no problem. I did have a battery charger hooked up to the connections in the eng bay so I didn't encounter any low voltage issues. Maybe me being a bit OCD .

thats intreging i just tried and it connected to correct module but not others heres 3 examples The precise model ecu is line 2
note on first 2 it actualy tells you what is there

 

[Fat Albert]

Well, that is very intriguing, as you say. I never had any invalid ISO statement. I'm getting the van ready for a couple of days away. Maybe get a chance to investigate when it's raining.

 

[rwg]

rwg as a sw engineer, I have a hardline policy about sw piracy. Even towards Microsoft. It’s annoying because MS and others don’t seem to believe people like me exist :-(

That said, your comment made me realise I’m conflating two problems. I can use Parallels/VB and Windows trial period to get initial readings. I just need a full working version after the Fiat work and for ongoing monitoring.

Edit: maybe if I’m just ignoring a nag that’s not stealing

It's an odd one -there is no 'official' Windows trial period, but it definitely has a practical trial period with increasing nag levels over time and then limits on how many programs you can run, updates, customization, etc. I'm sure it has been very carefully crafted by Microsoft to increase the chances of selling a license and also keep support requests to a minimum - I tend to always install without a license key on a new PC and then apply the license key when I'm sure the basic install is fine.

cheers,

Robin

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[RustyRuss]

Out of interest, what rpms to you typically use when driving? Do you pootle along and under 2000rpm all the time or do you give it a really good, sustained revving? We have an Old Ford Transit minibus at the college I work at and it’s had the engine management warning light on for around 18 months, it’s been diagnosed to death and nobody has managed to cure it. I took it to Ellesmere Port from Warrington the other day and ragged it to death on the motorway up to its 65mph limiter, driving it one and sometimes two gears lower than it would feel comfortable and economical at. I got LOTS of black, blue and grey smoke out of it and on the way back from EP the management warning light went out. It’s been off now for around 500 miles. I believe the process is called an “Italian tune up” might be worth a try before blowing £’000’s on Fiat parts?

Just a thought,
Cheers!
Russ

 

[Jane And Rog]

I generally obey the EMUs suggestion to change gear and I sit on the motorway at about 60-65mph (in the middle lane obviously) so it is running mainly around 2000rpm but I also - especially recently - do run at higher revs to try and give the cleaning cycle a chance.

 

[pagey]

is this any good to you

 

[Jane And Rog]

is this any good to you?

Yeah, this is pretty much the setup I’m using under Wine (although I’m using Crossover to start with).
With this setup MES does communicate with the ODB Port but then crashes with an unhandled exception (second error above).

I’ve also tried on Parallels but I can’t get the USB setup to work, MES just times out. I’ve tried other ODB Apps too to make sure it’s not an MES quirk. I’ve also tried some native ODB clients on the Mac to confirm my ODB isn’t a knacker.

Re the ISO errors - I count that as (somewhat) working since MES is obviously communicating with the ODB and ECU to check the ISO code against its config. I guess it could be that some code running in the background crashes and generates this error but I’d be happy if I could get past the unhandled exception.

I’m going to keep looking at this - potentially with a WiFI ODB or a different USB one. It doesn’t help that the way these USB ODBs work is by emulating a serial port over USB - using some nasty dark corner of windows

To get some data in the short term, I’ve also bought a Surface tablet on ebay. From previous experience, peripherals are always the places where Wine, VirtualBox and even Parallels fall down. Some Software engineer I turned out to be

 

[Prop]

Hi I am watching this with Interest as we are considering buying a dual egr van.
I know most people have read the FF but for those that have not I think the image below and explanation both posted on the FF by the1andonly helps understand whats going on, it did me

Why do we get excessive sooting: overfuelling either by dodgy program or dodgy injectors get latest program update. Injectors contaminated either by programming defects or contaminated fuel. keeping injectors clean is important here options Premium fuel, additives like Miillers eco or dedicated cleaners like Liqui Moly Diesel Purge. Fuel filter is important here, i know of one example of 401 problem having diesel bug implicated.
Why does cooler soot up? Well first of all the soot has to get out of the DPF. With initial overfueling excessive temperatures are generated in the DPF (greater than 800C which causes cracking and an easy path for soot through the DPF. Temp up to 620 during regen.) The stardard path of exiting DPF is exhaust and LPEGRcooler circuit
How to stop cooler clogging: new DPF, stop injectors ovefueling (new injectors, update program, fuel cleaning). Alternatives are being discussed.
Note The turbo solenoid MAP sensor and Differential DPF sensor all important in this setup

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