Feel sorry for this lady (1 Viewer)

[Jim]

Pembrokeshire artist 'lost £61k in motorhome scam' - Herald.Wales

PEMBROKESHIRE artist Claire Howell of Eglwyswrw is one of more than 50 potential victims of an alleged fraud. It concerns Steve Mann Caravans, a

www.herald.wales

 

[TheBig1]

Seems one dealer every couple of years crashes having ripped off multiple customers deliberately

 

[Riverbankannie]

Not only the customer in this case, but the finance company too. In effect Mann was paid twice for the MH.

 

[Steve and Denise]

Pembrokeshire artist 'lost £61k in motorhome scam' - Herald.Wales

PEMBROKESHIRE artist Claire Howell of Eglwyswrw is one of more than 50 potential victims of an alleged fraud. It concerns Steve Mann Caravans, a

www.herald.wales

Nothing new there some unscrupulous car dealers have been doing this for years it’s a known scam

 

[Puddleduck]

Absolutely dreadful.

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[Jo662]

Is it usual to pay in full when you order a motorhome?

Iv only paid a deposit, and paid the difference at hand over.

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

Is it usual to pay in full when you order a motorhome?

Iv only paid a deposit, and paid the difference at hand over.

I think the concensus on here has always been the same.Motorhome checked, present, then balance paid on handover.
And the deposit by credit card.

 

[MisterB]

we all look for bargains, its natural, but sadly the fraudsters understand that better than most of us ever will - they also understand the bankruptcy laws and are happy to exploit them and the expense of 'others' ....

 

[RedFrame]

If she's genuinely been defrauded, then I feel gutted for her, but her own financial dealings seem pretty darn complicated.

Cheers
Red.

 

[Riverbankannie]

Is it usual to pay in full when you order a motorhome?

Iv only paid a deposit, and paid the difference at hand over.

She gave it back to them to sell on her behalf as she had bought another during the wait for this new one. (As I understand it from the article ).

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[Puddleduck]

When we bought our last van from Geoff Cox (near Derby) we paid a very small deposit against a special order.

At handover once we were happy with the van we paid the balance and a few days later received what looked like a genuine certificate stating that the van was ours and there was no finance or chattel mortgage outstanding. I am well aware that any documentation can be fraudulent but it was reassuring.

Geoff Cox were a brilliant firm to deal with and I would be happy to buy from them again. It's just a pity they are so far away from us.

 

[Carpmart]

The whole situation just doesn’t make sense to me… how on earth has she been left with the debt? You pay the money and you are the bona fide holder of the title to that vehicle?

How can Mann take out finance on a vehicle he doesn’t have title to? The finance company need to be told their due diligence is poor and to do one! Surely she still owns the asset (Motorhome) she purchased?

 

[RedFrame]

The whole situation just doesn’t make sense to me… how on earth has she been left with the debt? You pay the money and you are the bona fide holder of the title to that vehicle?

How can Mann take out finance on a vehicle he doesn’t have title to? The finance company need to be told their due diligence is poor and to do one! Surely she still owns the asset (Motorhome) she purchased?

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that some dealers take out finance to purchase/order the stock, this is then paid off when the stock is bought by customers...

Problems start to arise when the dealers have cash flow issues, they use the payments from customers to pay older finance on vans that have already been sold to other customers months ago. This is what happened with St Andrews Motorhomes about 5 years ago.

Cheers
Red.

 

[Puddleduck]

The whole situation just doesn’t make sense to me… how on earth has she been left with the debt? You pay the money and you are the bona fide holder of the title to that vehicle?

How can Mann take out finance on a vehicle he doesn’t have title to? The finance company need to be told their due diligence is poor and to do one! Surely she still owns the asset (Motorhome) she purchased?

But the seller (Mann) had taken out a loan on the vehicle, probably a chattel mortgage, giving the lender rights over the vehicle if the borrower defaulted. It's not clear if the lady in question ever had a V5 in her name (not that the V5 proves ownership). Because there was a chattel mortgage the lady would not have clear title even though she had paid for it. Usually when there is a chattel mortgage the seller would use the proceeds of sale to pay off the mortgage.

If there is an outstanding chattel mortgage the lender will have a claim on the vehicle and in order to get full title the lady would have to pay off the mortgage. In effect she does not own the vehicle she has paid for.

There is quite a lot of case law on this if you look.

I think there has also been examples where vehicles have been in dealers for repair and the dealer has taken out chattel mortgages on them even though they have no title to the vehicle at all. Basically it is fraud.

I once did a set of accounts for a dodgy used car dealer where according to his books I had bought three cars from him in a year, none of which had any link to the car I had actually bought. The car I bought was not in his stock list at all.

 

[Carpmart]

But the seller (Mann) had taken out a loan on the vehicle, probably a chattel mortgage, giving the lender rights over the vehicle if the borrower defaulted. It's not clear if the lady in question ever had a V5 in her name (not that the V5 proves ownership). Because there was a chattel mortgage the lady would not have clear title even though she had paid for it. Usually when there is a chattel mortgage the seller would use the proceeds of sale to pay off the mortgage.

If there is an outstanding chattel mortgage the lender will have a claim on the vehicle and in order to get full title the lady would have to pay off the mortgage. In effect she does not own the vehicle she has paid for.

There is quite a lot of case law on this if you look.

I think there has also been examples where vehicles have been in dealers for repair and the dealer has taken out chattel mortgages on them even though they have no title to the vehicle at all. Basically it is fraud.

I once did a set of accounts for a dodgy used car dealer where according to his books I had bought three cars from him in a year, none of which had any link to the car I had actually bought. The car I bought was not in his stock list at all.

Thanks for explaining…

So why are chattel mortgages allowed and why haven’t the FCA jumped all over this. It’s just an open door for people to get ripped off!

Also, does an HPI check show up chattel mortgages or other title claimants?

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[nicholsong]

Is it usual to pay in full when you order a motorhome?

Iv only paid a deposit, and paid the difference at hand over.

The only reason to do so might be to for example secure a fixed price, but even then the monies should be paid into an Escrow account held by a Solicitor, with strict conditions for the release of the money to the seller.

Otherwise the answer is no to paying in full.

 

[Carpmart]

The only reason to do so might be to for example secure a fixed price, but even then the monies should be paid into an Escrow account held by a Solicitor, with strict conditions for the release of the money to the seller.

Otherwise the answer is no to paying in full.

Agreed! That’s why escrow exists!

 

[Puddleduck]

I'm not sure that the FCA have overview of chattel mortgages. It's a fraudsters paradise in the vehicle sector but loans against stock are common all through industry as so much finance is tied up in work in progress.

More info here:

Chattel mortgage - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Carpmart]

I'm not sure that the FCA have overview of chattel mortgages. It's a fraudsters paradise in the vehicle sector but loans against stock are common all through industry as so much finance is tied up in work in progress.

More info here:

Chattel mortgage - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Chattel mortgages for stock without end customers is fine. It’s just with a vehicle, which is pre sold and specifically ordered, then the finance company, as far as I’m concerned, clearly cannot have title to that vehicle as it’s already someone else’s title. They should have the due diligence in place to establish that without refinancing dealers willy nilly!

Stock ordered for stock, fair enough, but stock ordered and paid for by a customer, that’s a no!

 

[Coastal Cruiser.]

Unfortunately these scumbags have not defrauded any government department so will no doubt get let off with a suspended and as they will have no assets no monies will be recovered
Would happily shoot these people in the head if I was allowed as robbing off of working class people is the lowest of low.
I just hope one of their victims beats the shit out of them

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[Puddleduck]

I just hope one of their victims beats the shit out of them

I can't agree with the actuality of that statement but fully support the sentiments behind it!

 

[x17ken]

Like many on this forum I would never pay the full balance on a motorhome or car purchase without eyeballing the dealer, seeing the vehicle and its keys and reading all the relevant documents that usually has to be signed to ensure ownership. Do I feel sorry for this lady? No and Yes. She clearly has been a bit naive in handing out a substantial amount of money without checking the basics. That is very unfortunate for her. It is a classic case of "buyer beware". However having got herself into this situation with a scammer or maybe just a struggling business I feel very sorry for her in terms of the upset and stress she must have had to handle after the dawning realisation that the bottom had just dropped out of her world. I wish her well and hope that she gets some redress.

 

[Brains]

There was a thread here about the demise of Steve Mann Caravans back a couple of months ago.

 

[gus-lopez]

Also, does an HPI check show up chattel mortgages or other title claimants?

No. It has to be traced vehicle by vehicle through company account s

 

[Brains]

Thanks for explaining…

So why are chattel mortgages allowed and why haven’t the FCA jumped all over this. It’s just an open door for people to get ripped off!

Also, does an HPI check show up chattel mortgages or other title claimants?

Long thread here about a company that had dozens of motorhomes on Chattel Mortgages, that they then told and absconded with the cash.

Basically, if you are looking for a nice fraud where, with a bit of forward planning you will never be caught,
Buy a load of motorhomes,
put them all on chattel mortgages,
sell all the motorhomes,
(ensure you keep up all the mortgage payments until the last one is sold)
And then abscond to a country with no extradition treaty with the UK and live the life of Riley

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[Kannon Fodda]

The concept of Chattel type loans on motorhomes with dealers is worrying. There does not appear to be a simple way for a purchaser to know if there is one and if so it's been settled. A HPI type check will only detect standard hire purchase type loans.

So how can a purchaser reasonably protect themselves? I knew nothing of these type of loans when I bought from a dealer 5 years ago. Fortunately all went well. Perhaps one safeguard is that I did part finance the purchase with my own hire purchase loan (since fully paid off).

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

Like many on this forum I would never pay the full balance on a motorhome or car purchase without eyeballing the dealer, seeing the vehicle and its keys and reading all the relevant documents that usually has to be signed to ensure ownership. Do I feel sorry for this lady? No and Yes. She clearly has been a bit naive in handing out a substantial amount of money without checking the basics. That is very unfortunate for her. It is a classic case of "buyer beware". However having got herself into this situation with a scammer or maybe just a struggling business I feel very sorry for her in terms of the upset and stress she must have had to handle after the dawning realisation that the bottom had just dropped out of her world. I wish her well and hope that she gets some redress.

She actually paid for the mhome she ordered without actually seeing it because the dealer advised he could sell it for more than she paid for it less a 2k handling fee. And giving her a profit .
Her greed led to her misfortunes to some degree but led on by the dealer.

 

[Carpmart]

She actually paid for the mhome she ordered without actually seeing it because the dealer advised he could sell it for more than she paid for it less a 2k handling fee. And giving her a profit .
Her greed led to her misfortunes to some degree but led on by the dealer.

She was clearly socially engineered into the loss… just finance and thieves screwing over the ordinary person!