Victron Inverter/Charger 1600vA - is a consumer unit required ?

[MarkHoughton]

Hi,

Appreciate everyone's help on my upgrade to Lithium and am posting questions in bite size chunks.
I am about to install a Victron Multiplus 12/1600/70 into my Carthago E-line (2016) and replace the existing CBE522 charger. My question is, do I need to fit a 16A consumer unit with a 100A RCD between the existing EHU Shore power socket and the inverter ?
I have seen this "suggested" in an advert supplying a ready made kit for a camper, albeit the kit also includes a separate consumer on the "output" side of the inverter/charger for supply of power to 3 pin sockets.
The supplier of my inverter/charger kit did not specify a consumer unit, so am wondering why another kit supplier does.

Cheers in advance.
Mark

 

[Lenny HB]

I've recently fitted a Multiplus 3000 added a 10 amp RCBO in the exsisting Carthago consumer unit. The output of the Multiplus wired to the input of the RCBO and the output to the vans sockets.
For a 1600VA Multiplus you would only need a 6amo RCBO.

 

[Raul]

Hi,

Appreciate everyone's help on my upgrade to Lithium and am posting questions in bite size chunks.
I am about to install a Victron Multiplus 12/1600/70 into my Carthago E-line (2016) and replace the existing CBE522 charger. My question is, do I need to fit a 16A consumer unit with a 100A RCD between the existing EHU Shore power socket and the inverter ?
I have seen this "suggested" in an advert supplying a ready made kit for a camper, albeit the kit also includes a separate consumer on the "output" side of the inverter/charger for supply of power to 3 pin sockets.
The supplier of my inverter/charger kit did not specify a consumer unit, so am wondering why another kit supplier does.

Cheers in advance.
Mark

In the multiplus manual for your model, you will have recommendation for input and output. Look at the manual to confirm. EHU coming to multiplus AC in, it is limited to your multiplus rating of total pass trough. From memory is 16A, and you should have as a minimum a MCB B16 or C16, or even better a 16A RCBO. On the output, it can be a mcb B or C6 double pole, or a 6A rcbo type B double pole.
Note, on the output the need of a rcd/ rcbo of type B, reason of DC leakage onto AC output.

 

[autorouter]

My question is, do I need to fit a 16A consumer unit with a 100A RCD between the existing EHU Shore power socket and the inverter ?

I think you need to be clear about the differences between the different types of 'trip switch'. A 16A MCB, with 'B16' or 'C16' written on it, is designed to protect against overcurrent. If the amps exceeds 16A, it will trip. It does not protect aginst earth leakage or electric shock.

An RCD is designed to protect against earth leakage and electric shock. If the leakage exceeds 30 milliamps, it will trip. It does not protect against excessive amps. It will have '0.03A' written on it, and a 'Test' button. It will also have a current rating written on it, maybe 20A. This indicates that it can be used in circuits up to 20A. But it won't trip if the current exceeds this value, that's not its job.

So you should have a consumer unit with an RCD of at least 16A rating, and an MCB with B16 or C16 on it, An RCD with a higher limit, like 20A, 40A or 100A will be fine, as long as the leakage limit is 0.03A.

Instead of an RCD and MCB, you can use an RCBO, which combines the functions of an RCD and MCB into one single unit. It will have '0.03A' written on it, and also the current rating B16 or C16.

It is important that any RCD, MCB or RCBO is the double-pole type. The standard UK domestic types of MCB and RCBO are not suitable, you should get double-pole types from a specialist supplier or caravan accessories store.

 

[Gromett]

Nothing much to add to Raul post but one thing I always do is place the input RCD as close to where the EHU cable enters the van. I can then place the Victron closer to the batteries to keep the 12V cables as short as possible.

I want the RCD and MCB (or RCBO) as close to where the power comes in so that if anything happens to the cable between the inlet and the victron I am protected.

The 240V flex between the RCD/MCB/RCBO should be protected as well. At a bare minimum use copex convoluted plastic tubing. (I use copex not kopex in my searches as it gives the unbranded cheaper but still good stuff)

I would also re-iterate what autorouter said about the double pole type. This is critical in my opinion.

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[MarkHoughton]

Nothing much to add to Raul post but one thing I always do is place the input RCD as close to where the EHU cable enters the van. I can then place the Victron closer to the batteries to keep the 12V cables as short as possible.

I want the RCD and MCB (or RCBO) as close to where the power comes in so that if anything happens to the cable between the inlet and the victron I am protected.

The 240V flex between the RCD/MCB/RCBO should be protected as well. At a bare minimum use copex convoluted plastic tubing. (I use copex not kopex in my searches as it gives the unbranded cheaper but still good stuff)

I would also re-iterate what autorouter said about the double pole type. This is critical in my opinion.

Hi,

Thanks for the info, why would I need to use copex tubing on the existing inlet cable ? If there is none on the existing Carthago mains input to the current CBE control/consumer unit ?
I was aware of the double pole necessity, but am unsure of the difference between and RCBO and RCCB in this instance as to which is more suitable for this application. Also, I had ordered an MCB which was classed as C16 but AC, I have since found out that I should have ordered the "A" rating one ? Is that correct ?

Regards

 

[Lenny HB]

Here is what I did in my Carthago.

 

[PeterCarole29]

Have you considered incoming power surge in your set up

 

[Gromett]

Thanks for the info, why would I need to use copex tubing on the existing inlet cable ?

Only applicable If the inlet point is any distance from where you are locating the victron.

Usually I think the consumer unit is close to inlet point so probably not necessary to have copex on the cable.

However, if you are locating the victron near the batteries which may not be near the inlet point then I would recommend the copex.

 

[MarkHoughton]

Only applicable If the inlet point is any distance from where you are locating the victron.

Usually I think the consumer unit is close to inlet point so probably not necessary to have copex on the cable.

However, if you are locating the victron near the batteries which may not be near the inlet point then I would recommend the copex.

Hi,
The inlet point is "over" the battery, so about 6" and the Inverter/Charger is 20" from the inlet point and so about 12" cable to the terminals.
How does that sit with required distance ?
Cheers

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[MarkHoughton]

Here is what I did in my Carthago.

View attachment 940774

Hi Lenny,

Have you bypassed the existing CBE distribution unit then to achieve your supplies to sockets/fridge etc ? As this 'inlet control' I am enquiring about is before the outlet from the inverter/charger feeds this original distribution box. I may have over-simplified my thoughts, but I was going to disconnect the joint block from the existing EHU inlet and then send that to the inverter/charger and the output from the inv/chg to "reconnect" with the joint block and so on to the CBE board shown here.
If/is then all I need to do is snip the R37 to disable the SCR. Or is something else in addition required ?
The white wire surely needs plugging somewhere and the existing +/- bolts undoing to remove the CBE charger. Though should I leave that in place in case the Victron ever plays up so that I could re-use mains charging in an emergency ?

Regards
?

 

[autorouter]

was aware of the double pole necessity, but am unsure of the difference between and RCBO and RCCB in this instance as to which is more suitable for this application.

If you're only using one circuit, then there's no difference between using a separate RCD and MCB, or an RCBO. However if you are using a single RCD to supply separate circuits for more than one MCB, then that RCD can act as a mains isolation switch. If you go for all RCBOs and no RCD, then you'll need a main switch isolator somewhere as well.

Note that with any 'dual source' supply, you need a prominent notice warning about the dual source supply, and how exactly to isolate the two or more supplies, suitable for someone who has never seen your setup before.

The detail on the trip switches in your picture is not visible, any chance of a closer shot of them?

 

[Gromett]

Hi,
The inlet point is "over" the battery, so about 6" and the Inverter/Charger is 20" from the inlet point and so about 12" cable to the terminals.
How does that sit with required distance ?
Cheers

No need for the copex then

 

[MarkHoughton]

So this is the 'revised' schematic I have received from the kit supplier incorporating my existing components with the Fogstar battery sourced direct from Fogstar. Is this reasonable/suitable ( albeit the B2B is Orion XS-50 and not the 18a shown ) ?
Do I need to include anything else ?

 

[autorouter]

With all those positive supplies to/from the battery, I'd be thinking of a fuse box rather than a busbar. Especially as the amps requirements for the wires are very different. Something like this, with Midi fuses:

Mega & Midi Fuse Power Distribution Box

Compact power distribution & fuse box that distributes power theough a single mega link fuse into 4 midi or strip link fuses.

www.12voltplanet.co.uk

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[MarkHoughton]

With all those positive supplies to/from the battery, I'd be thinking of a fuse box rather than a busbar. Especially as the amps requirements for the wires are very different. Something like this, with Midi fuses:

Mega & Midi Fuse Power Distribution Box

Compact power distribution & fuse box that distributes power theough a single mega link fuse into 4 midi or strip link fuses.

www.12voltplanet.co.uk

Hi,
What is confusing me in all of this, though I do appreciate your suggestions, but why did the kit supplier "Van-Junkies" provide these items as "suitable", if they are not ?
I went to a kit supplier, specifically so that they would supply me all of the components I required, rather than me sourcing myself.
The busbars they provided are 250a.
Thoughts ?
Mark

 

[autorouter]

From the positive busbar there will be a 100A midi fuse for the B2B, and an inline fuse for the MPPT. There is no fuse specified for the CBE unit, even though there would have been a fuse originally from the old battery setup, so probably a fuse required there, same as the original one, maybe 30A. The 50mm² wire to the inverter/charger will be OK protected by the big 200A fuse. So that's 3 fuses next to the busbar.

Yes, you could just use 3 inline midi fuses, nothing wrong with that. I was just suggesting it would be neater to use one of those fusebox distributors.

 

[Lenny HB]

Hi Lenny,

Have you bypassed the existing CBE distribution unit then to achieve your supplies to sockets/fridge etc ? As this 'inlet control' I am enquiring about is before the outlet from the inverter/charger feeds this original distribution box. I may have over-simplified my thoughts, but I was going to disconnect the joint block from the existing EHU inlet and then send that to the inverter/charger and the output from the inv/chg to "reconnect" with the joint block and so on to the CBE board shown here.
If/is then all I need to do is snip the R37 to disable the SCR. Or is something else in addition required ?
The white wire surely needs plugging somewhere and the existing +/- bolts undoing to remove the CBE charger. Though should I leave that in place in case the Victron ever plays up so that I could re-use mains charging in an emergency ?

Regards
? View attachment 940777

My drawing is not quite correct as the incoming RCD is in fact an RCBO that also feeds the heater. I added a RCBO into the existing consumer unit then fed the output of that into the breaker that goes to the sockets, I have still to separate the fridge wiring as it is on the same circuit as the kitchen socket.

The R37 you refer to is to disable the split charge relay when fitting a B2B, my van had a B2B as standard.

I don't think much of that wiring diagram you have been supplied.

Here is my 12v side, also a link below to my modding thread.

Lenny's Modding the new Mini Gin Palace

Finally got around to starting a thread, at least it will stop you lot nagging me. I've been a bit busy with daughter visiting from Thailand and fitting in the Hereford Rally a few days after getting the van. This van is giving me a lot of earache, someone keeps going on about has small &...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

 

[MarkHoughton]

Hi Lenny, not so much a wiring diagram as a schematic for my own purposes to get it square in my head what was going where. I seem to recall some thread posts you were involved in whereby supply to the fridge as part of the 12v system with engine running needed addressing. I just need to locate that post again to understand what I may have to do to maintain the fridge power. I have bookmarked a number of posts, but often ( like this one ) they go on for pages and drift off-topic sometimes and it's a trawl through everything to find the one piece of advice. Also, I have forgotten to include the VanBitz battery master in the list of components. Though the excellent tutorial video from OffGrid explains how that can be wired into the XS50.