Victron Energy Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-30A with Smart Alternator not working?!

[Guzziando]

I have fitted a Victron Orion B2B charger to my motorhome. The problem I am having is that I am only getting 12.4v coming from the alternator, and getting the notification in the app stating 'charge is disabled due to: input voltage lock-out Engine shutdown detected.

I have a wire running from the D+ which should trigger the Victron when the engine is running. I have just driven for 2 hours in daylight, and my cab battery was at 12.4v. I would have expected it to be higher than that after a 2 hour drive.

The split charge is wired through a relay, so disengages when the engine is started.

Both the Cab and Leisure battery negative terminals are connected via 10mm2 wire.

I have not touched the settings in the Victron other than to set it to Gel battery, and smart alternator.

I know nothing about smart alternators, so would welcome some expert advice, failing that any advice would be gratefully received....

 

[daveandsan]

Bump

 

[Googlebot]

Hi there Guzziando

You mention split charge, what’s that for? The B2B unit replaces the split charge relay normally?

What voltage is at the engine battery itself?

 

[Jo662]

Perhaps Lenny HB autorouter or Raul can help

 

[nigelivy]

Getting only 12.4v from the alternator/engine battery seems very low. Are you sure they're both are OK?

By default, the Orion is set to shut down if the input voltage is below 12.5v (this is known as the Input Voltage Lock-out). Here are a couple of exerpts from the Orion manual:

You can change the Input Lock-out settings on the Orion, but I would recommend ensuring that both your engine battery & alternator are OK first.

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[Raul]

Try lower the voltage in the settings for the input voltage lock out. A smart alternator will sit at 12.4v waiting for a slope or brakes to engage in regen, then voltage will rise.
I use a fixed voltage dc dc converter and ignition trigger for that reason.

 

[Raul]

Also make sure your b2b input negative, it’s of the chassis, and not from battery terminal. If you have a smart alternator, you will have a shunt on negative starter post. If you connect of the post, the ecu will not see the consumption, and will not trigger the alternator. Pick the negative from a good chassis earth point so the ecu will register a draw and hopefully will kick the alternator to work.

 

[Guzziando]

Hi there Guzziando

You mention split charge, what’s that for? The B2B unit replaces the split charge relay normally?

What voltage is at the engine battery itself?

Yes, it does replace it, which is why I mentioned the split charger disengaging when the engine starts. When I arrived home after my 2 hour drive, the cab battery was at 12.4v.

 

[Guzziando]

Getting only 12.4v from the alternator/engine battery seems very low. Are you sure they're both are OK?

By default, the Orion is set to shut down if the input voltage is below 12.5v (this is known as the Input Voltage Lock-out). Here are a couple of exerpts from the Orion manual:
View attachment 788426View attachment 788427

You can change the Input Lock-out settings on the Orion, but I would recommend ensuring that both your engine battery & alternator are OK first.

The batteries are fairly new, and the Cab and leisure battery normally sit around 12.8v to 13v when on hook up, or solar. I am confident that both batteries are OK.

 

[Guzziando]

Also make sure your b2b input negative, it’s of the chassis, and not from battery terminal. If you have a smart alternator, you will have a shunt on negative starter post. If you connect of the post, the ecu will not see the consumption, and will not trigger the alternator. Pick the negative from a good chassis earth point so the ecu will register a draw and hopefully will kick the alternator to work.

Thanks, that makes sense, will check that tomorrow.

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[Raul]

Yes, it does replace it, which is why I mentioned the split charger disengaging when the engine starts. When I arrived home after my 2 hour drive, the cab battery was at 12.4v.

That’s normal with smart alternator. The ecu knows if needs charging or not, and always leaves a bit of room for regeneration charging.

 

[autorouter]

I have a wire running from the D+ which should trigger the Victron when the engine is running.

Since you have wired the D+, you intend that the B2B is switched on whenever the engine is running, and is switched off when the engine is stopped. To do this you should wire the 'Remote On/Off' terminals so that the 'Engine Shutdown Detection Override' is activated, as described in section 4.5 of the manual. In addition, the 'Engine Shutdown Detection' should be OFF in the Victron Connect App, as described in section 5 of the manual (can be seen in the pic in nigelivy's post).

Engine Shutdown Detection is an algorithm that tries to detect whether the engine is running or not by monitoring the starter battery voltage. That is exactly what you are trying to avoid by using the D+ signal, especially with a smart alternator. That's why you need to override it. You need to switch it off in the Victron App too, otherwise it continues to try charging the leisure battery from the starter battery when the engine stops.

 

[Guzziando]

Since you have wired the D+, you intend that the B2B is switched on whenever the engine is running, and is switched off when the engine is stopped. To do this you should wire the 'Remote On/Off' terminals so that the 'Engine Shutdown Detection Override' is activated, as described in section 4.5 of the manual. In addition, the 'Engine Shutdown Detection' should be OFF in the Victron Connect App, as described in section 5 of the manual (can be seen in the pic in nigelivy's post).

Engine Shutdown Detection is an algorithm that tries to detect whether the engine is running or not by monitoring the starter battery voltage. That is exactly what you are trying to avoid by using the D+ signal, especially with a smart alternator. That's why you need to override it. You need to switch it off in the Victron App too, otherwise it continues to try charging the leisure battery from the starter battery when the engine stops.

That makes perfect sense when described like that. I will check that out.

 

[Guzziando]

I have my D+ wire going to H pin as in in diagram b). I therefore just need to turn off engine shutdown detection:

All should then work?

 

[Guzziando]

View attachment 788613

I have my D+ wire going to H pin as in in diagram b). I therefore just need to turn off engine shutdown detection:

View attachment 788614
All should then work?

It does work, I had to reduce the engine lock-out level to 12.3v, as the cab battery voltage is currently low.

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[Louis P]

Hi, jumping on this thread as really puzzled how the Orion should behave and is behaving.

If you remove the green plug from the L & H and turn off engine shutdown override then the B2B should not work. But if I turn down the input voltage lockout say to 12.4 the Orion starts charging, should this happen as I have D+ wired but with or without a signal the Orion starts charging.

 

[Louis P]

Hi, jumping on this thread as really puzzled how the Orion should behave and is behaving.

If you remove the green plug from the L & H and turn off engine shutdown override then the B2B should not work. But if I turn down the input voltage lockout say to 12.4 the Orion starts charging, should this happen as I have D+ wired but with or without a signal the Orion starts charging.

And you can all ignore me as I cannot tell the difference between L &H. Write them The wrong way round and it’s always on. I’ve turned off the lockout and engine override and it works now

 

[autorouter]

If you remove the green plug from the L & H and turn off engine shutdown override then the B2B should not work. But if I turn down the input voltage lockout say to 12.4 the Orion starts charging, should this happen as I have D+ wired but with or without a signal the Orion starts charging.

I think the term 'engine shutdown override' is confusing. It's actually 'engine shutdown detection override'. If you turn it off, that means that engine shutdown detection is active, ie not overridden and disabled. If you set it at 12.4V, that means the B2B comes on if the starter battery voltage exceeds12.4V.

Engine shutdown detection means the B2B guesses when the engine is running or not based on the starter battery voltage. It works reasonably well with a standard alternator, but not very well at all with a smart alternator. The smart alternator frequently drops its voltage, which can fool the B2B into thinking the engine is stopped, so it stops charging.

If you want the B2B to come on only if the D+ is high, and go off if the D+ is low, then you need to override the engine shutdown detection, in other words disable it or switch it off. As well as disabling it with the appropriate L/H connections, you need to switch it off in the App too.

 

[Louis P]

I think the term 'engine shutdown override' is confusing. It's actually 'engine shutdown detection override'. If you turn it off, that means that engine shutdown detection is active, ie not overridden and disabled. If you set it at 12.4V, that means the B2B comes on if the starter battery voltage exceeds12.4V.

Engine shutdown detection means the B2B guesses when the engine is running or not based on the starter battery voltage. It works reasonably well with a standard alternator, but not very well at all with a smart alternator. The smart alternator frequently drops its voltage, which can fool the B2B into thinking the engine is stopped, so it stops charging.

If you want the B2B to come on only if the D+ is high, and go off if the D+ is low, then you need to override the engine shutdown detection, in other words disable it or switch it off. As well as disabling it with the appropriate L/H connections, you need to switch it off in the App too.

Without this thread I would have got really confused and as I’m in Brittany at the moment I would have resorted to manually taking the B2B on and off as I was driving.

I borrowed a small screwdriver from another motorhome owner and swapped over the wire from L to H and turned all the smart settings off.

Thank you for your help