Upgrading to Lithium. Piecemeal vs all at once.

[hornsofallign]

Hi all, can I ask your advice about and experience of moving your MH setup from lead to use Lithium?

Long story short - we want more time off grid, and understand the best way to achieve that is to move from lead to lithium batteries, replace all our charging sources to work with Lithium, adding more solar panels and an inverter (potentially big enough to run aircon).

We'd love a supplier to do it all in one go, but the quotes are scarily high (up to 8k), so I'm wondering if there's an incremental route, with the suppliers doing 1 bit first, then another later on, etc, etc.

I don't feel electrically competent enough to do it myself.

Is this feasible? If so, what's the best order?
Or is it false economy and should we just bite the bullet?

 

[125BEER]

LennyHB is your goto funster...

 

[paddymcc]

8k sounds a lot to me but I did the work myself having spent ages reading posts on here about how to do it. So far I have upgraded the solar panel, added a MPPT solar controller and B2B that are lithium compatible and after that, when the lead acid batteries faded, added 230Ah of lithium. Total cost was less than 2k. I already had a 300W pure sine wave inverter but may upgrade that later to cope with a microwave. I'm happy with a 12v fan rather than Aircon.
I would certainly want someone reputable to do it and with a guarantee if I were paying out as much as you quoted.

 

[Tombola]

What set up do you have now hornsofallign
what solar, what batteries, chargers mppt etc

 

[Lenny HB]

LennyHB is your goto funster...

Not really no direct experience just fairly knowledgeable.

Alway best to do the complete job to get the best out of Lithium although a lot of suppliers sell lithium as a drop in replacement you will never get the best out of them.

Even for Lithium running aircon is a tall order and you will need a big battery bank probably 400 to 600 ah, then there is not point in having a big battery bank if you don't have the means to charge them. So probably looking at 600 Watts of solar or more, can you get that on the roof? Then a large B2B so may need an alternator upgrade.

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[hornsofallign]

What set up do you have now hornsofallign
what solar, what batteries, chargers mppt etc

The sources are EHU, alternator and 100w solar with Epever PWM controller
The leisure battery is varta LFD90
I don't know what the alternator or starter battery is, but the engine is 2015 3lt ducato (euro 5, I assume)
Distribution is via Schaudt ebl226

 

[CazPaul]

Upto 8 grand good grief, that’s expensive.

 

[hornsofallign]

Not really no direct experience just fairly knowledgeable.

Alway best to do the complete job to get the best out of Lithium although a lot of suppliers sell lithium as a drop in replacement you will never get the best out of them.

Even for Lithium running aircon is a tall order and you will need a big battery bank probably 400 to 600 ah, then there is not point in having a big battery bank if you don't have the means to charge them. So probably looking at 600 Watts of solar or more, can you get that on the roof? Then a large B2B so may need an alternator upgrade.

Thanks Lenny HB.

We wouldn't be able to get 600 watts on the roof. The Aircon is an aspiration so, if impractical, we'll reign ourselves in. But it sounds like you're saying do the work (what ever that may be) in one go, not piecemeal.

 

[hornsofallign]

Upto 8 grand good grief, that’s expensive.

yup. That was the top price (lots of victron boxes) with a couple of others 1k-2k cheaper, but even the lower price means we need to look at alternatives like doing a bit at a time. All recommended similar types of setups (unsurprisingly), just with slightly different kit or size.

 

[the1andonly]

Forget the aircon. What is your style of camping, travel every day or stay in one place 2 weeks. What is max solar space on the roof. Stay in one place 500w solar 30amp b2b , move every day or 3 then 50-60A b2b. I did mine myself and piecemeal.
Votronic mppt li profile and charges starter battery. Used a 30A votronic b2b can add a second later if required. Haven't wasted any money on mains charger as gel setting on existing is good enough for the real odd time we need ehu. Change batteries when old ones close to dying. Then add invertor once you know how much capability you have /need . Piecemeal protocol whether you diy or sub out.

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[autorouter]

I think it's possible to upgrade in planned stages. If you can't get 600W of solar, then as a first step you could install as much solar as you can, with an MPPT solar controller. If the controller has selectable charging profiles it will work fine with the existing 90Ah lead-acid battery, and will work with lithium when you finally get it. That will be a vast improvement on your present off-grid setup.

In a similar way, you could install say a 60A B2B, and if you get one that can be set to half power you could set it to 30A which will just about be OK for your lead-acid battery. Then switch it to full power when the lithium is installed. Again this would benefit your existing off-grid capability.

 

[Lenny HB]

Thanks Lenny HB.

We wouldn't be able to get 600 watts on the roof. The Aircon is an aspiration so, if impractical, we'll reign ourselves in. But it sounds like you're saying do the work (what ever that may be) in one go, not piecemeal.

How much lithium are going to go for?

You could leave the mains charger until later as it you fit a B2B and a decent amount of solar with the correct controller you won't be charging from the mains very often.

 

[hornsofallign]

Forget the aircon. What is your style of camping, travel every day or stay in one place 2 weeks. What is max solar space on the roof. Stay in one place 500w solar 30amp b2b , move every day or 3 then 50-60A b2b. I did mine myself and piecemeal.
Votronic mppt li profile and charges starter battery. Used a 30A votronic b2b can add a second later if required. Haven't wasted any money on mains charger as gel setting on existing is good enough for the real odd time we need ehu. Change batteries when old ones close to dying. Then add invertor once you know how much capability you have /need . Piecemeal protocol whether you diy or sub out.

Generally 1-3 nights before moving on, ideally with less than 1 hours drive between. Judging by the size of the current 100w panel, I reckon we could get a couple more panels, so I'd assumed 300w, but I haven't measured precisely yet.

Domestically I've added spurs and sockets - before the part-p regulations made it illegal - so wondered what skill level you have, and realistically if I can learn enough just from the forum?

I'm terrified of destroying my wife's favourite toy as I doubt she'd forgive me !

 

[hornsofallign]

How much lithium are going to go for?

You could leave the mains charger until later as it you fit a B2B and a decent amount of solar with the correct controller you won't be charging from the mains very often.

How Much?

I've tried to calculate our likely usage, using a spreadsheet off explorists.life website - but struggled with it - not least because it was setup for 110v.

Our usage isn't unusual, I think. Computers, if we're working in the van; lights & TV at night, and hopefully once a day a toaster and nespresso off the inverter. No microwave, no hairdryer.

So instead of calculating, I'm assuming I'd go for as much as I can get under the seat just inside the hab door (seems a lot of Adria's have the electronics there). I guess thinking this future proofs me too ...

The space is about 480x480x300, but has the ebl, solar controller as well. So maybe I'll get it between 200-300 in there, because I think it fits the unaffordable 330ah victron

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-12,8-&-25,6-Volt-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries-Smart-EN.pdf

(as an aside - is this the densest Ah per size battery on the market?)

 

[the1andonly]

To Generally 1-3 nights before moving on, ideally with 1hours drive. Judging by the size of the current 100w panel, I reckon we could get a couple more panels, so I'd assumed 300w, but I haven't measured precisely yet.

Domestically I've added spurs and sockets - before the part-p regulations made it illegal - so wondered what skill level you have, and realistically if I can learn enough just from the forum?

I'm terrified of destroying my wife's favourite toy as I doubt she'd forgive me !

If you've wired sockets and changed plugs and oil filter in a car I suspect you have sufficient diy skills and with the right advice no need to worry. Check your roof for space to put a large domestic panel at least 300w in one panel plus what ever else. If you have different Voltage panels you will need at least 2 mppt controllers.(ps I replaced one 120w with a 330w and created a patchwork with another 100w ie 550w total on a 6m van. One thing that people forget/ ignore is charge Control with lithium ,ie it does not like being held at 100% ( for longest life) and if unused for several weeks would be better not being charged eg held at 40_60%, this can be done simply by using an isolator on battery negative. No problem if using a dual mppt controller. I don't know how to manage this with a battery master. Time for my hot chocolate.

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[berni109]

Most of what he just said.
Decide what you want to run off the battery/s first of all.
Then see how much solar u can fit. Look at when you will be camping during the year and factor the charge u will be putting into the battery. If the panels wont support the requirements then u need to decide what you can run without the need for hookup or accept that you will only be able to use 240v when hooked up.
We are predominantly summer campers with 300w solar 1 lithium battery a votronic controller and battery to battery but no inverter. This works for us and I try to avoid hookup unless we need 240v.

 

[Itsmcb]

Good batteries (IE Roamer) are now around £5-600 per 100amps, I doubt you would need more than two, that would give you 5 times you current power reserve. Victron Charger, mppt controller, B2B roughly around £200 each. 300 watts of solar panel max £300. Panel brackets, cable etc maybe another £200 - 300. Total £2500 max

 

[the1andonly]

Just an update to say I found this usage calculator/estimator on roadpro’s website

RoadPro Energy Calculator

its much easier to use than the the explorists.life one

just had a butchers quite interesting especialy the 240V stuff i dont use
here's some data i use in my spread sheets
Tables

Appliance​	W​	hrs​	Wh​	Ah​
light 1​	18​	3​	54​	4.5​
light 2​	8​	2​	16​	1.3​
light 3​		1​	0​	0.0​
light 4​		0.5​	0​	0.0​
Tely​	24​	0​
Tely​	10​	3​	30​	2.5​
DVD​	13​	2.5​	32.5​	2.7​
Truma Boiler Standby​	1​	24​	24​	2.0​
Truma Boiler heat up​	44.4​	2​	88.8​	7.4​
truma heater heat up​	72​
truma heater​	12​
pump 1​	60​	1​	60​	5.0​
pump 2​			​	​
airbed pump​	30​	0.15​	4.5​	0.4​
heater/fan​	30​		​	​
phone charger​	0.7​	1​	0.7​	0.1​
AA battery charge​	0.8​	1​	0.8​	0.1​
​
Daily Consumption​	​	​	311.3	25.9

 

[Gromett]

Hi all, can I ask your advice about and experience of moving your MH setup from lead to use Lithium?

Long story short - we want more time off grid, and understand the best way to achieve that is to move from lead to lithium batteries, replace all our charging sources to work with Lithium, adding more solar panels and an inverter (potentially big enough to run aircon).

We'd love a supplier to do it all in one go, but the quotes are scarily high (up to 8k), so I'm wondering if there's an incremental route, with the suppliers doing 1 bit first, then another later on, etc, etc.

I don't feel electrically competent enough to do it myself.

Is this feasible? If so, what's the best order?
Or is it false economy and should we just bite the bullet?

No sure where you are located, but Wissel is doing this kind of work from his workshop in Lincolnshire.

 

[nabsim]

I have a 110ltr compressor fridge running 24/7/365. 2x150W solar panels on the roof. I used to run 270Ah lead acid but I was constantly taking them too low except in summer.

I originally had both panel going through a Votronic 250duo so could use the max panel output but wasn’t enough to worry about usually in U.K. I had already bypassed my EBL running solar direct to battery bank as my EBL would only take 10a through solar.

Decided to go to Lifepo4 so bought and fitted (dead easy) a Votronic 30a b2b. I almost never used EHU but set the EBL charger to Gel as a temporary measure. Fitted a Victron BVM as I needed to manage battery’s much better.

Fitted 2x100ah TN Power using the discount on here for reasonable cost. I am always in U.K. but that allowed me to sit off grid in summer indefinitely, certainly weeks at a time rather than days.

Five months of the year (ish) solar doesn’t do it in spite of getting an additional 100W folding panel and a Victron 100/20 MPPT, 1 panel stayed on Votronic which also trickles 1amp to starter battery, other panel and Anderson connector for folding panel going through Victron. This extended slightly but not enough, can be down to 3 days static in winter when solar can be very poor.

I now have a second folding 100W panel that will be connected through the Votronic. I carry a 1Kw Hyundai generator for when I need to boost the battery’s, I like to keep them above 20% SoC. Can’t see the point of running a big diesel unless I am moving even if it didn’t damage the engine. Last winter I added 2 x 30 a Victron mains chargers for the sole purpose of faster charging and less generator run time.

Bit of a long post but hopefully it illustrates how I did it in stages which is what I would suggest to you. I also spread the cost of everything out.

If budget wasn’t and issue and with hindsight I would go for a 50a Votronic Trio that would handle solar, b2b and mains charging. Would have worked out cheaper than the 2x mppt, 2x mains chargers and b2b, plus Votronic now do a shunt and Bluetooth.

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