Upgrading a wet lead acid charger

[Cush]

Evening everyone,
I have a Sargent ec200 PSU2007 on my 2003 era autotrail.
how do you folks go about upgrading your onboard charger, retaining the use of the current battery wiring if at all possible. Does anywhere make harnesses / looms that make this possible.

happy To be schooled,
Cush

 

[Stealaway]

Solar panels are a popular and excellent method of upgrading your charging.

 

[Jev88]

On my old Coach-built I had the option to pull one fuse (the charger) and could then plug in any charger I liked to a 240V socket and to batteries.

 

[Cush]

Solar panels are a popular and excellent method of upgrading your charging.

Thanks Stealaway I have a modern solar controller that does the job when the suns out but my van is stored for 6 months undercover with no ehu. I’m concerned that this is the worst case scenario for wet lead acid batteries (sulphication of the plates?) and so need batteries that will handle being part charged for an extended period. would an ehu charger that only goes to 13.5v in combination with a solar charger be good enough for the higher charging levels required by PbC or LiFePO4 When on ehu?

On my old Coach-built I had the option to pull one fuse (the charger) and could then plug in any charger I liked to a 240V socket and to batteries.

Thanks Jev88 . Was yours a Sargent system? Did you upgrade the wiring to the batteries?

thanks for your ideas
Cush

 

[Pausim]

would an ehu charger that only goes to 13.5v in combination with a solar charger be good enough for the higher charging levels required by PbC or LiFePO4 When on ehu?

13.5 V is not enough to charge any battery properly, lead acid or lithium. This voltage is nothing more than a supply to power 12V electrics and the device should not be described as a charger.

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[autorouter]

would an ehu charger that only goes to 13.5v in combination with a solar charger be good enough for the higher charging levels required by PbC or LiFePO4 When on ehu?

It depends on how much you use EHU. Some people rarely use it, even if they park on the drive at home. A good solar controller with multistage charging will be fine for the summer, and most of the spring and autumn. However a good multistage charger like the Victron Bluesmart IP22 or IP65 will look after a Lead Carbon battery, with the correct charging profile to get it fully charged, and a storage mode to look after it if it's in storage. Just connect it direct to the battery, and switch off the inbuilt charger or pull the charger fuse.

A lithium battery doesn't need to be driven into the fully charged state like a lead-acid-based battery, it is perfectly happy to sit at 80% or 50% indefinitely with no degradation. In fact overcharging is one thing that they definitely don't like.

 

[GeoffnDee]

Cush , www.apuljackelectronics.co.uk may be able to modify your existing EC200 /PSU2007 charger to different variants , including Lithium if required , have a look in their catalogue , Sargent section , which has information regarding possible changes to the charging system used with the EC200/PSU2007.

 

[autorouter]

my van is stored for 6 months undercover with no ehu.

Do you have access while it is being stored? If so you could have some arrangement where you can take something to charge it every few weeks, which will stop the worst of the sulfation.

 

[Cush]

Thank you all. Plenty to consider. Appreciate the advice. Will be back to pick your brains, if that’s ok?

Thanks again
Cush

 

[NicM]

If you are leaving the batterys for 6 months proberly best to take them home and look after them.

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[Cush]

If you are leaving the batterys for 6 months proberly best to take them home and look after them.

Agreed but easier said than done unfortunately . They are about as accessible as an inaccessible thing at the back end of an inaccessible place . Even the auto spark hates working in them, but gets paid!

 

[Cush]

Cush , www.apuljackelectronics.co.uk may be able to modify your existing EC200 /PSU2007 charger to different variants , including Lithium if required , have a look in their catalogue , Sargent section , which has information regarding possible changes to the charging system used with the EC200/PSU2007.

thanks GeoffnDee
had a look at their website. Not too much more than sargents multiphase charger. May be the way to go. Just need to see what my wiring is rated at.
thanks again
Cush

 

[Cush]

It depends on how much you use EHU. Some people rarely use it, even if they park on the drive at home. A good solar controller with multistage charging will be fine for the summer, and most of the spring and autumn. However a good multistage charger like the Victron Bluesmart IP22 or IP65 will look after a Lead Carbon battery, with the correct charging profile to get it fully charged, and a storage mode to look after it if it's in storage. Just connect it direct to the battery, and switch off the inbuilt charger or pull the charger fuse.

A lithium battery doesn't need to be driven into the fully charged state like a lead-acid-based battery, it is perfectly happy to sit at 80% or 50% indefinitely with no degradation. In fact overcharging is one thing that they definitely don't like.

autorouter how is my logic on this …..?

when in use, the 350 watts of solar and solar controller with customizable charging profile would be able to look after a lithium or PbC during late spring / summer / early autumn?

if ehu was available while on a site on holiday (not weekend) I be better not running the charger, just using ehu for any 240v appliances (we have none) and solar doing it’s thing? Would sticking the inbuilt charger on have any pros or cons? Here is what I know about it “
Input 110 - 240 Volts AC +/- 10%, Frequency 50 Hz +/- 6%,
Current 3.15A max.
DC Output 13.5 Volts nominal, Current 16 Amps max (200 Watts).

when in storage with no solar would a drive bring up enough charge from the split charge that is fitted to maintain lithium in its sweet spot, or would the current charger have any pros here?

is there much in the way of additional tech that would be required to build a hybrid system involving 1 lead acid? I understand that something is needed to stop a lithium equalising too rapidly with a lead acid of lower voltage and melting cables.

Cush

 

[autorouter]

if ehu was available while on a site on holiday (not weekend) I be better not running the charger, just using ehu for any 240v appliances (we have none) and solar doing it’s thing? Would sticking the inbuilt charger on have any pros or cons? Here is what I know about it “
Input 110 - 240 Volts AC +/- 10%, Frequency 50 Hz +/- 6%,
Current 3.15A max.
DC Output 13.5 Volts nominal, Current 16 Amps max (200 Watts).

The problem while on EHU is that the fixed voltage at 13.5V doesn't fully charge an AGM or gel battery, so sulfation starts to accumulate. Periodically giving it a full charge, every month or so, will clean up the sulfation. A lithium battery at 13.5V will not be fully charged, but will suffer no degradation. If you're on EHU then it's no problem, unless you want to fully charge it ready for some off-grid camping when you leave.

With some of the multistage intelligent chargers like CTEK and Victron, you can get a wire that permanently attaches to the battery, and connects to the charger lead with a special 2-way connector. Even if the batteries themselves are inaccessible, this can be located somewhere convenient, so connecting a charger is a 2-minute job. I have a charger wire like that already wired in on the two scooters, the car and the MH starter battery.

I have a 5A charger, a CTEK MXS5.0, that has a bike mode and car mode. I find the 5A output is quite sufficient to fully charge the 200Ah of leisure batteries if the MH is on the drive, not being used.

is there much in the way of additional tech that would be required to build a hybrid system involving 1 lead acid? I understand that something is needed to stop a lithium equalising too rapidly with a lead acid of lower voltage and melting cables.

I think Hoovie is the one for this, he has a hybrid lithium/lead acid setup. But I think if both batteries are reasonably charged when you connect them, there won't be a problem. And once they are connected they will stay synchronised.

 

[Cush]

Thanks autorouter
I may let the solar look after the lithium and look in to not loosing all my current lead capacity with some form of hybrid. Thanks again
Cush

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[Hoovie]

There are a few things to consider when either switching to Lithium, or going into a Lithium/Lead hybrid setup. Now the following is MY take on it; others may have other ideas about it.

1) The Sargent Charger within the EC PDU (Power Distribution Unit) is NOT suitable for the job. The voltage output level has been mentioned, but that is just one aspect. The current output capability is another. Also the noise from the fan when the charger is in use and the potential strain running at full capacity for long periods. Sargent quote a maximum battery bank and this is based on Lead Batteries. Exceeding that size, especially with Lithium and you are overstressing the already limited unit.
I have no doubt it will work - until it doesn't. And a repair will cost more than buying a better more capable mains charger to start with.

2) If you go down the Hybrid route, there are a number of benefits. In my own opinion and experience, a Lithium/Lead Hybrid is better than staying all Lead, and is also better than going all Lithium. It is one of those unusual situations where spending less gets you more.
But you have to do it right. You need a charger that can charge a Lead Acid battery properly (a charger putting out 13.5V is junk) and a way for the Lithium to stop getting charged when it is full. You can read more about how a basic Hybrid Battery setup will work here - https://www.wildebus.com/hybrid-battery-bank-introduction/ - but it is important to read fully the write-up to understand the charging aspect.

I don't know if just having one lead and one lithium battery is worth it though in terms of the changes needed? I say this as if you feel the Sargent charger is ok at the moment, you would see the costs involved in getting an extra charger maybe as too much just for lithium (although it (the Sargent )is not even good enough for your lead currently anyway). Add that to the cost of getting a Lithium Controller such as the VSDR I talk about in that article and it becomes a harder decision. For me, when I first decided to develop a Hybrid setup, I had already bypassed all charging functions of the Sargent (for all the reasons given), so excluding the actual Lithium Batteries, all I needed was a VSDR type device and cabling to make it complete.
I've been running the system for over 2 years now - it worked precisely how the theory said it should from the outset and the only changes made was the actual development and installation of the VSDR Lithium Controller unit to be a fully standalone programmable unit.

HTH.

 

[Cush]

Hoovie thank you
very much appreciate your experience and advice. Thanks for taking time to explain all that.

Cush